It was definitely not Sammael, as he was not yet released from the Bore. The man is exactly what it's claimed he is - a Whitecloak spy with a noticeable scar.

Hello, long time lurker, first post:

So, what has been bothering for some time is Herid Fel, when talking to Rand in LoC about the seals, he says:

LoC, chapter 18

"No, it [the DO's prison] was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more".

Why should the DO's prison be whole again in the Third Age? Shouldn't it rather be the Age of Legends?

 

I guess this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any posts on it.

Possible answers: mistake from RJ (if so, it would likely have been corrected in later printings), mistake from Fel, the AoL is part of the Third Age (note that it is never referenced as the Second Age, not ir the "Age Before the Age of Legends ever called the First). Pick whichever answer you prefer.

 

Hey Mr. Ares, thanks for your answer!

My copy is a reprint from the 1995 LoC edition, so I don't know if it has been corrected in later editions? And in the Glossary, it's stated: "Age of Legends: Age ended by the War of Shadow and the Breaking of the World". The name "Third Age" clearly implies that there were two other Ages before, and IMHO it wouldn't make any sense for Herid Fel (as a scholar and as someone clearly familiar with the concept of the Wheel and Ages) to refer to the current Age as the Third Age without knowing the names of the two ages that came before the Third Age. I mean, there has to be a reason why it's called the Third Age!

Checking the errata, I don't see an update for that chapter. As for two Ages before, time is cyclical. There were many Ages before. "Third" is probably just an arbitrary designation (note the books do say "called the Third Age by some"), and Fel evens wonders if it will be known as the Thrid Age next time it comes around. The belief that an Age has changed is not necessarily accurate. People might believe an Age has changed while philosophers are of a different opinion. Without knowing the conditions of the changing of an Age, we cannot know if they have been met in this instance, nor can we know if the people have any way to know. The glossaries are written by Harriet, not RJ, and he didn't share everything with her, so she might have written that in in error (and there have been mistakes in glossaries before (there was one in LoC). As it stands, Fel's statement is somewhat odd and without a proper explanation from Team Jordan. So either he was mistaken (and Rand let it slide because he didn't want to sidetrack him), or the AoL is merely the first half of the Third Age, not a separate Age in its own right.

Hello, long time lurker, first post:

So, what has been bothering for some time is Herid Fel, when talking to Rand in LoC about the seals, he says:

LoC, chapter 18

"No, it [the DO's prison] was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more".

Why should the DO's prison be whole again in the Third Age? Shouldn't it rather be the Age of Legends?

 

I guess this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any posts on it.

Possible answers: mistake from RJ (if so, it would likely have been corrected in later printings), mistake from Fel, the AoL is part of the Third Age (note that it is never referenced as the Second Age, not ir the "Age Before the Age of Legends ever called the First). Pick whichever answer you prefer.

Three way tie:

White Ajah: 5

Green Ajah: 5

Brown Ajah: 5

Blue Ajah: 3

Red Ajah: 3

Gray Ajah: 2

Yellow Ajah: 1

I was re-reading the Great Hunt, and a question occurred to me: WHY was Fain so dead set on getting Rand to Falme? What was his plan? I don't recall that being ever explained.

In a word: ambush. He runs to Toman Head, getting Rand to follow. He tells the Seanchan someone is after him, and when Rand arrives, Fain and his new Seanchan buddies are there waiting for him. If that fails, run away and fight somewhere else.

 

Do channelers need to embrace the source in order to be able to detect someone else's ability to channel?

 

And I don't mean "to see weaves", nor "to detect whether someone is holding the Power", but merely "to recognize someone else as channeler even if the latter is NOT holding the Power".

 

More specificly, I was wandering whether this ability could work in Ogier steddings or not, as the stedding blocks channelers from the source. Therefore, another way of stating this question could be: "could a channeler in a stedding recognize someone else as channeler?"

 

Tx!

You wouldn't need to hold the Source, but you would need to be able to. In a stedding you couldn't hold the Power, so you couldn't sense if someone was a channeler there. Outside of a stedding, a woman could sense another woman's ability to channel with neither of them holding the Source.

According to WoT measurements I've found online, 1 span=6 feet, 10"=1foot. So the WT would be about 500 feet tall in our world as stated above.

 

This depends on whether their feet are the same length as our feet, or their inches are the same length as our inches. If our feet are the same, then their inches are bigger than ours, and if our inches are the same, then their feet are smaller than ours. If their feet are smaller than ours, then either RJ wasn't consistently applying his made-up measurement system to people's heights when he describes characters, or people are much shorter in Randland, a whole foot shorter on average. For example, a 7 foot tall Aiel using Randland measures and assuming their inch equals our inch would really only be a slightly above-average 5 feet 10 inches in the real world (70 inches). Someone who was really 7 feet tall would be reported as a shocking 8 and a half feet (nearly), which heights are usually reserved for Ogiers and Trollocs. But if either of these possibilities are the case, the the White Tower is only 500 feet tall.

 

On the other hand, if their feet are the same as our feet, then the description of character heights is pretty much in line with what we expect from real humans, Their inch would only be one-fifth bigger than ours. So we have the advantage that we don't have to imagine RJ as being inconsistent in his application of his in-universe system of measurement, and we don't have to think that everybody was weirdly short. Our feet, and thus our paces and spans, are the same by definition and provided we agree to RJ's definitions of those terms respectively. Since a span is equal to 6 feet, then a building 100 spans tall, as the White Tower is canonically described as being, would be 600 feet.

 

will someone please answer this question.

its starting to bug me now.damn.

 

You have two options as an answer. If you believe either that RJ was a sloppy writer or everybody in Randland was weirdly short, then the Tower is 500 feet tall. If you don't want to believe RJ was a sloppy writer, or that everybody in Randland was weirdly short, then the Tower is 600 feet tall. Choose wisely.

People used to be shorter on average than they are today. Is your "weirdly short" by today's standards, or averaged over the whole of human history? Hell, it can even vary significantly worldwide. Which "real humans" are you referring to?

The Aiel mistake was bringing in the soft wetlanders into the battle. They were easily conquered, they reaped many damane = end of the Aiel, far too many channelers to fight against. Think of Europe and the easy time Hitler had with all the countries except the UK.

Russia gave him problems as well.

For my money, the hottest has to be Ishamael. Why? He has fire in his mouth and eyes, that's bound to put out more heat than a normal human body...

 

you know i've never actually met a "crazy ass bitch" who wants "world domination".

where do you go to meet girls like that?

Me? I go home.

 

I voted Graendal. I think I would turn for her... or, you know, be turned by some precisely place compulsion.

 

*eyes what he wrote, and is content to let the obvious jokes be made*

 

Some of the DM laydeees might not find the female characters as hot as say.... Galad...Gawyn... loial... a trolloc, etc.

My people always get overlooked. *sigh*

Indeed. Poor Australians, always overlooked.

One more thing: mysteries that just don't matter much. I have only read up through Knife of Dreams, so I don't know as much as everyone else here does. Maybe Demandred's secret identity has been revealed, or maybe not. But to go by the discussion here, it would seem that Jordan/Sanderson admit that Demandred's secret identity doesn't even appear "on screen" until at least TGS. If that is the case, then what the hell good is the mystery? If there aren't any clues to be gleaned, then a mystery cannot be solved, and the ultimate revelation is meaningless. Same with Mesaana: I gather her secret identity has been revealed by now, but the only clue I remember--something about a fringe on her dress?--doesn't seem to be planted anywhere else for an observant reader to notice. (Maybe I'm wrong about that.)

Using the information you have read so far, it is possible to correctly identify Mesaana's identity - the leading suspect turned out to be correct. It's not always easy to see the clues when there are so many other details, but they are there.

 

That's how it's done, people. Imagine, say, that Demandred is Mazrim Taim. Yes yes, I know, Jordan/Sanderson and others have ruled him out as a possibility, but just for the sake of argument: imagine that we readers discovered this, say during the course of LORD OF CHAOS, but the secret was kept from Rand and the others. Now that would create a terrible sense of suspense, us knowing that a Forsaken was leading the Ashaman!

The problem with this is we have much evidence to suggest Taim is up to no good, and Rand is apparently oblivious to it. OK, he's not Demandred - he could still be a Darkfriend. So isn't that suspenseful? It fits your criteria.

So I was thinking of reading the Chronicles of Tomas Covenant. I've heard of the books. My dad made my middle name Kovan based on the books. Kovan/Covenant meh. But anyways I don't know if they're any good and apparently he rapes a girl in the first book? So anyone have an opinion they'd care to share on the series?

I've read them. Never really got into them - I found the prose to be unengaging (a problem I didn't have with other books of his I've read). Yes, Covenant rapes a girl in the first book. He spends the rest of the series regretting it, and trying to make amends. I wouldn't let the rape put you off - it's worth a try, see how you get on with the writing, but if you find it boring then just drop the series and maybe try his other works (Mordant's Need and the Gap).

 

 

I'm about halfway through the first Malazon book. Still not 100% sure whether I'll buy the second book...

Do NOT give up on the series before book 2. Deadhouse Gates (Book 2) and Memories of Ice (Book 3) are amazing and much much better than Gardens of the Moon.

That's terrible advice. Yes, books two and three are better than one (and mark the high point of the series), but given that drop off in quality after them, if you're not that big a fan of the firt one it might be better just to drop it. This series isn't for everyone.

I agree with what Hybrid and Mark Grayson have said. Killing characters is not an instant guarantee of more tension in the story, and it's possible to generate tension in ways that don't involve killing people. Therefore it does seem rather silly to me that people seem to be fixated on this idea of the story needing more tension, therefore people must die. I have no particular objection to characters dying, I just don't think it will solve any of the perceived problems of the series. To look at another fantasy series, Malazan Book of the Fallen, it has a high body count, but I wouldn't rate it as superior to ASoIaF, a story which actually kills fewer people. So more deaths does not equal better. In fact, one of the frustrating things about Malazan is that it is often quite boring for lengthy streches - before redeeming itself by doing something spectacular. I wouldn't say Malazan is more tense. If people want more tension, they should say they want more tension, not more corpses. The two things are different. Body count is no measure of quality or tension.

Rulius was polite and kind enough to briefly explain why I probably have never heard of Peake's work, and since that epic story is more than a few decades old, being published in 1946, 1950, and 1959. Therefore, it is clearly obvious that it is likely the vast majority of fantasy readers have probably never read Gormenghast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormenghast_(series)

I don't know if that really follows. After all, Gormenghast remains in print, local bookshops will often have copies, it's not like it's an obscure, hard to get hold of title. Gollancz's Fantasy masterworks series claims the books in the series are the ones that along with Tolkien and Peake, shaped modern fantasy. The announcement of a new Gormenghast title was reported in the newspapers, that sort of thing tends not to happen to authors no-one has heard of - it happens when you're sufficiently well known by the mainstream for the press to report on you.

 

 

As to why I think I am qualified to determine whether or not a series is better than the WOT? Well, because I have been reading fantasy books for 30 years.. and because I have read books from several other genres, then it is safe for me to believe that if I have not heard of a fantasy book series, then the probability is very high that it ain't as good as Robert Jordan's WOT series.

Really? If I haven't heard of a series, I don't take that as any comment on its quality - after all, it is quite possible for obscure works to be good.

 

But then, for me it's less of an issue because I've read everything, man,

I've read everything, man

Read about the deserts bare, man,

while I breathed the mountain air, man,

Of books I've had my share man,

I've read everything,

I've read Donaldson and Buther, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Rice, Dickens, Austen, Peake, Tolkien, Vance, Smith, Lovecraft, Howard, Fallon, Jordan, Sanderson, Martin, Joyce, Gaiman, Pratchett, Holt, Brown, Richards, Abnett, King, Moorcock, Abercombie, Bakker, McCaffrey, Abraham, le Guin, Fuller, Fraser, MacDonald, Lieber, Zusak, Wooding, Banks, Morgan, Huston, Hutson, Hart, Dicks, Brooks, Dick, Herbert, Anderson, Guderian, Iggulden, Gardner, Smith, Adams, Mieville, Swainston, Rankin, Clarke, Reynolds, Asimov, Aldiss, Swanwick

I've read everything, man.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that bragging about an average of 33 books read each year is rather sad. There were times in my life when I read several a week; I'm still at more than 1 a week, even with a stressful job and a family.

I once read 33 Goosebumps books in one year and I will brag day and night about that.

Glutton for punishment, are you? Most people would have found the pain too much long before.

Agreed with the use of gateways. As for the rest it has been brought up many times but she could not be seen to use foreign soldiers or Rand's armies as she would not have even had Dyelin's support let alone the rest of Andor.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes to accepting the throne from the DR the answer would have been against.

 

We also have the POV from Bashere when he tells Gaul why they can't use foreign soldiers.

 

As a supporter of Rand I still think Elayne would have saved Caemlyn from the seige had she let his armies maintain a pressence (if even only for a short term of say 6-8 months) to give herself time to develope a force capable of holding her claim for the throne. Andor was not a conqured nation, and dispite his wording, Rand really wasn't giving it to her - he liberated it from one of the forsaken and made clear he had no intent of maintaing a power base there. I am positive he told Dylen the very same thing. She could have came to the city and began petitioning the noble houses - informing them that she is recalling the remainder of the queens guard, that the imposter Gaebril had indeed been Ravhin (of forsaken fame) and that she was alive and well and preparing Andor for the pending last battle.

 

Additionally.... I don't see the difference between the mercanaries that she has HIRED to defend the city (and her claim) draining the royal coffers, and the armies supported by Rand defending her position with out incurring as great a cost. Not to mention the aid of an experienced General in establishing a plan of action for a schedualed with drawl that would leave the city in the rightful queens proper hands. Indeed soem of the houses may be "upset" with the idea of less then a years occupation of foreign soliders on there home soil, but the surly wouldn't have raised arms aginst. and being a little "upset" is certainly better then civil war.

 

as far as using the power goes - yeah I may have forgot about her being preggars and not being able to channel thing - but if she was less hasty in sending the dragonsworn away it would have been a moot point.

The difference between mercenaries and Dragonsworn is largely one of appearance, which is important. If she uses Rand's Dragonsworn, Aiel, etc., she looks like she needs his help to maintain the throne, whereas if she uses mercenaries, she looks like she's doing it on her own. The perception that she is being given the throne is harmful to her - definitely in the long term, but it won't necessarily help in the short either. What if her disloyal nobles decide to betray her at TG - the Light can still win, but Elayne gets knifed before she has a chance to win them over. Better to get off on the right foot, it solves all manner of problems.

 

 

Yeah, I'd say Elayne's mistake wasn't refusing the help of foreign armies, but gallivanting off when she knew that Andor was without a Queen.

Gallivanting off to save the world by fixing the weather? She put the overall good above her political aspirations and for that should be lauded.

I disagree. Elayne was the only Daughter-heir of Andor, and thus, the only one who could 'rightfully' claim the throne of Andor. I don't believe there was anything she did in Ebou Dar that couldn't have been done by another Aes Sedai(or two).

Firstly, when she left the situation in Andor was stable - there was no urgent need for a Queen. Secondly, in Elayne was one of two AS who had been on the need walk in T'a'r, so one of only two with a good idea what they were looking for. Even passing on everything she can remember runs the risk of missing something out. There was a dispute between the two anyway as to the number of stories the building had - it turns out Elayne was right. Had Nynaeve gone alone, she might well have spent all her time looking for a five storey building when they needed six, and bullied others into looking for that as well.

Well, Christmas is a holiday celebrated every year on the 25th of December. Giving gifts to others at this time of year is traditional, and consequently the run up to Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year for retail.

 

It's hard to argue with that. I do know where you're coming from. I just think you should give the WOT more respect.

 

Upon its release, Crossroads of Twilight immediately rose to the #1 position on the New York Times hardcover fiction bestseller list, making it just the third Wheel of Time book to reach the #1 position on that list.

 

 

I know you think that WOT fans are destitute creatures who can't possibly save up $20 over the course of a year so they could buy the new book when it comes out. So you'll probably argue that CoT only did so well while being released in January because the peasants still had a little Christmas money left. I think it's because WOT fans do have $20 and get the book on or as close to the day it comes out as they can. Any time of year.

WoT fans are a large and diverse group. Many will buy on day of release, undoubtedly - I never questioned that. But not all of them will. That's a simple fact. There are people on these boards toaday who have not yet read ToM - because they are waiting for the paperback, because they've not had time, whatever reason. Are they not fans? Your comments have a remarkable tendency to not relate to what I'm saying save in a rather tangential fashion.

 

And while you don't think New Spring is a part of the series, everybody else does.

Then everyone else is wrong. UncleButcher has the right of it - while New Spring is connected to the series (it's a prequel, after all) it is not a part of it, any more than the BWB is. And if we count the BWB as well, then WoT is at least 16 books - and why stop there? The RPG must surely be a part of the series! No, WoT is a series, currently intended to be fourteen books, beginning with EotW, concluding with AMoL. Those books are all part of the series, other related works are not.

DoD spoilers follow:

 

Did anyone else find that the parts in the Wasteland with the Snake and the K'chain Che Malle were pretty boring? I mean I absolutely love the parts with the Letherii and Malazans, and the Perish parts to an extent. The Barghast parts are also quite interesting but my god the Wasteland stuff drags.

The K'chain Che Malle and Snake parts are incredibly important, so pay very close attention to everything, cause in TCG he's going to pop quiz you like a sledgehammer to the face. In fact he'll quiz the hell out of you about the K'chain at the end of DoD as well. You really have to think of DoD and TCG as one book. There's nothing in either that's not vitally important.

Sigh.. I guess you're gonna tell me the Shake storyline is super important as well?

 

Thank god for the Malazans, Tehol, Khundryl and Perish.

The Shake remain disconnected from the main plotline, and could have been removed with no change to the plot. And one of the big problems I have with Erikson is that for all he has some wonderful stuff in there, there does tend to be an awful lot of really boring stuff as well.

lol many nice burns in that. yes.....you were taught that every sentence must begin with a capital letter, and so you accept and comply...whereas I question, revise and improve.

I fail to see why it's any better to simply do stuff differently for the sake of it. An unthinking rejeton of tradition is just as unthinking as an unthinking acceptance of it.

 

 

and splitting a hair such as "the prologue is not a part of the series" = grasping at straws because it has nothing to do with your rebuked novel of speculations on why the editing process must be rushed / mistakes left in, which was supposed to be the point of the debate. now you are latching onto technicalities such as "oh, you don't capitalize" like a desperate man sliding off the edge of a cliff....lol maybe some more friends will show up to save you

 

there is ALWAYS enough time to get a job done RIGHT

George R.R. Martin took damn near six years to do the job right on ADWD. An awful lot of people have complained in the meantime about how long it's taken - especially after the five years he took to make sure AFFC was done right ended up with a book often regarded as the least in the series. The prequel (a prologue is something quite different, though I suppose your error in this regard is as a result of your artistry) is not a part of the series, but my argument does not rest on that point. My points might have been rebuked, but they have not been refuted. On that point I cannot fault your use of language. A perfectly chosen word (though I would hazard I'm a little short of a novel's worth of speculation - a novelette at worst).

your posts do contain a fair few errors.

you again!

 

the key difference (obviously) being my lack of capitalization / punctuation = 100% intentional...the WoT errors 100% unintentional. everything I write on here is exactly the way I want it to look. thus they are not "errors" (as they are not made in err)

Ah. You like being wrong. That explains a lot.

lol think of my writing style as a statement on anti-conformity / individuality (on an aesthetic level) vs. herd-mentality / doing what you're told for no reason.

It doesn't work - your writing is not too dissimilar to many other posts. On the other hand, my lack of smileys and "lol"s are far more atypical (though granted as that absence would only become apparent from the totality of my posts people could be forgiven for not noticing it. Also, I only really do that because I don't see the point, rather than due to any great desire to be seen as a non-conformist). I attempt to convey everything I wish to through the language I use, not through a consistent use of poor punctuation - to do so wouldn't set me apart from the herd, so much as move me to a different herd. (I hope you don't object to some friendly constructive criticism of your writing stlye.) I have no desire to make statements about my lack of conformity and how wonderfully individual I am, I simply atttempt to make my point as best I can. Sometimes it works quite well, other times it doesn't.

(the point of which is to break said rules in order to be more genuine and convey tones they simply don't allow. the subtlety and artistry of it is probably lost on you!)

Doubtless. To me, it all looks the same as anyone else who doesn't bother with proper punctuation. In future I will endeavour to separate your artistic use of such from other people.

 

There are no other books in the series proper.

kinda sounds like you're grasping at straws from a debunked and undefendable position. are you in politics or something man. why does the fact that I'm right gall you so much. I haven't gotten this much attention in a while...it's flattering but I'm not sure I'm ready ;)

(yes, I did not use question marks on those...that's how I want them to feel)

I'm not sure what's so debunked and undefendable about a position that there are only 14 WoT books. If I look at ToM it will doubtless say it's the thirteenth book in the series. There is a projected one more to come. 13+1=14, if I remember my maths correctly. Really, I'm paying no especial attention to you, there's no need to feel unduly singled out. And no, I'm not in politics any more.

 

UncleButcher, come now. Just because this great artistry is beyond you, there is no need for such mockery.

the following choices: get the book out, accepting there will be mistakes; delay the book for months, missing Chritmas.

qué? like I said all they have to do is hire additional or more competent proofreaders (me) I could unilaterally get it done in under < one week. lol @ 'months'! what you are describing is a breakdown in management. if they can't get it done by 'Chritmas'.....then they should have started earlier, it really is that simple. again a single work week is all it would take for ONE competent proofreader to fix every typo. "oops mr. jordan we actually need it one week ahead of when we thought (we suck rather badly you see)" <- whats so hard about that. if they really cared about their product they would QC it properly before releasing it. then no one would have to go through with your proposed boycott of the series. sounds to me like the same forces are at work which caused an originally-planned eyeless 3 book series to be milked into 15 eyeless books (corporate greed).

It was definitely not greed that lead this series to expand from three books into 15 (it has only expanded to fourteen, for one thing). RJ's initial plot breakdown was considered too extensive to be completed in three books - that's why his initial contract was for six books. RJ was just bad at estimating how much left he had to write. And they couldn't start earlier, because they hadn't finished writing it. TGS: Sanderson hired, works, finishes book, it is brought out. ToM, the same. Unless they had hired Sanderson a couple of months earlier? Of course, Tor needs to hire psychics! Some of the purely RJ books were rushed through editing - this proved unpopular as it led to a high number of errors, so they abandoned it for KoD. And as I have already pointed out, missing a deadline by mere days could potentially lead to months of delay. Publishers have slots when they release books. If your book isn't handed in in time to be released in that slot, you'll have to wait for another one. Or they just rush it through editing...wait, wasn't rushing it through the cause of the errors to begin with? You have demonstrated no particular knowledge of the publishing industry (neither am I, I've just picked up a couple of things) and despite the arrogance of your assessment I see no compelling evidence that you would be a better proofreader. Remember, just because you could get it done in under a week, doesn't mean they have a spare week to let you make one last pass before it goes to the printers. Because it has to go to the printers to get printed to get sent to the shops. And the printers won't necesarily stop and wait - they have other books to print. That is the point you so singularly failed to grasp about my one day line - I didn't mean all proofreaders have to do their job at the rate of a book a day, I mean that they are pushed for time. They have to edit the book, make the changes, get it sent to the printer in order to get it into the shops. And if the book is handed in close to deadline, then they have less time to prepare it - from what I can gather from reading comments Sanderson has made, he has to work long hours to get things done. I hardly think everyone else has masses of time to spare for nice, leisurely reads. And when you are up against it, timewise, there does exist the possibility that errors will slip past unnoticed. Unfortunate, but unavoidable unless you are prepared to spend much longer with the book in editing - and thus you delay the book by months. So your recourse as a reader is either to buy a book that you know will have errors, or wait until they have had time to fix them. By refusing to do the latter, you send the message that the errors are acceptable.

 

Interesting stuff. How often do these slots occur? Every 3 years or so?

Given that Tor does release books at a rate of greater than one every three years, evidently not.

The fans would really be upset about waiting 3 extra months to read a finished story?

Yes.

They would rather buy a book that's full of errors and typos?

If it got it to them sooner, yes. After all, many typos are removed in later editions, so therefore the choice between the book released now and the book released later but with fewer typos is not purely hypothetical, it actually exists. Just wait until they have made a few changes and start putting out ones with a lot of the errors fixed.

What's the Christmas thing about anyway?

Well, Christmas is a holiday celebrated every year on the 25th of December. Giving gifts to others at this time of year is traditional, and consequently the run up to Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year for retail. The run up to Christmas begins several months before Christmas, and companies that want their products to be big sellers over the Chirtmas period have to put those products out well ahead of time.

ToM was released 2 November 2010, I think they could have taken the afformentioned week to fix the (at least) the typos and released it November 9.

But as I've already explained, they can't do that. You see, books have to be printed. So the book has to be sent to the printer, so you have to agree with the printer that he will be printing however many copies of your book. If you delay getting your book to him by a week, he won't have time to put out all the books. Meanwhile, other publishers release books. You don't want your book to clash with another big release. So if you delay by a week, that leaves you with one less week before your rival puts out his book. Which has the potential to harm your sales.

And people are going to buy the next WOT when it comes out, even if it's not Christmas.

Hardcore fans will, yes. On the other hand, you sell a lot over the Christmas period. Why harm your sales? I will buy AMoL whether it comes out in November or January. But January is a slacker period for sales than November. Would you rather maximise sales before Christmas, or reduce them by only playing to the hardcore fanbase in January?

It's not really a Christmas gift. The ones that do come out near Christmas, it's more than 2 months before. No WOT fan is going to sit there for over two months waiting to read the next book because they are getting for Christmas.

OK, has anyone on these boards ever received a WOT book for Christmas? Or their birthday? Or anyday other than within a week of release? Remember, not everyone has sufficient disposable income to rush out and get themselves a hardback. Some people will wait until they get given the book.

It would make sense for the first book to come out before Christmas, that would get all kinds of new readers into your series. EotW came out 15 January 1990. CoT was released 7 January 2003, which tells me that getting these books out in time for Christmas is not that crucial to TOR.

3 books in November, 6 in October - that's nine out of thirteen so far that are definitely released in the run up to Christmas. No, there's absolutely no evidence that Tor would try to capitalise on the busiest retail period of the year by releasing their biggest selling book at a time when most people are out buying.

(it has only expanded to fourteen, for one thing)

Which one do you not count? And why not?

I don't count the imaginary one. The fourteen WoT books: EotW, TGH, TDR, TSR, FoH, LoC, CoS, PoD, WH, CoT, KoD, TGS, ToM, MoL (forthcoming). There are no other books in the series proper.

 

 

Do you have any idea

uh, no offense but maybe your reading skill is not on a level with mine? I only say this because for me catching typos is EXTREMELY easy...in fact I can't NOT.

Funny you should say that. After all, for someone so big on trumpeting your skill as a proofreader, your posts do contain a fair few errors.

it is my burden and my curse. for instance when you write things like

For, being the start of a sentence, should be capitalised.

 

ordinarily I would NEVER point it out or care in the least or think less of anyone for it (especially not when its just casual internet posting)...I just don't think it belongs in a WoT book! yes I could easily catch and fix every typo in a week or less...ALL you have to do is read each word, remain focused while doing so and have good spelling. maybe thats beyond most people but proofreaders of a major series should have that.

Again, lacking capitals. Also, you mean it's, not its, and that's, not thats. Normally, I wouldn't do something like this, but then ordinarily people are not so keen to trumpet their superior skills as proofreaders. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

 

you see what I'm saying? if I WEREN'T BETTER than the series' current proofreaders, than how is it I'm finding all these typos they missed?

You're not exactly starting from a level playing field - even leaving aside the conditions under which you have to work, you don't know how many typos they removed. If they removed 90%, then by demonstrating your skills with the remaining 10% you are by no means demonstrating your superiority. You only demonstrate that people are entirely capable of making mistakes.

the following choices: get the book out, accepting there will be mistakes; delay the book for months, missing Chritmas.

qué? like I said all they have to do is hire additional or more competent proofreaders (me) I could unilaterally get it done in under < one week. lol @ 'months'! what you are describing is a breakdown in management. if they can't get it done by 'Chritmas'.....then they should have started earlier, it really is that simple. again a single work week is all it would take for ONE competent proofreader to fix every typo. "oops mr. jordan we actually need it one week ahead of when we thought (we suck rather badly you see)" <- whats so hard about that. if they really cared about their product they would QC it properly before releasing it. then no one would have to go through with your proposed boycott of the series. sounds to me like the same forces are at work which caused an originally-planned eyeless 3 book series to be milked into 15 eyeless books (corporate greed).

It was definitely not greed that lead this series to expand from three books into 15 (it has only expanded to fourteen, for one thing). RJ's initial plot breakdown was considered too extensive to be completed in three books - that's why his initial contract was for six books. RJ was just bad at estimating how much left he had to write. And they couldn't start earlier, because they hadn't finished writing it. TGS: Sanderson hired, works, finishes book, it is brought out. ToM, the same. Unless they had hired Sanderson a couple of months earlier? Of course, Tor needs to hire psychics! Some of the purely RJ books were rushed through editing - this proved unpopular as it led to a high number of errors, so they abandoned it for KoD. And as I have already pointed out, missing a deadline by mere days could potentially lead to months of delay. Publishers have slots when they release books. If your book isn't handed in in time to be released in that slot, you'll have to wait for another one. Or they just rush it through editing...wait, wasn't rushing it through the cause of the errors to begin with? You have demonstrated no particular knowledge of the publishing industry (neither am I, I've just picked up a couple of things) and despite the arrogance of your assessment I see no compelling evidence that you would be a better proofreader. Remember, just because you could get it done in under a week, doesn't mean they have a spare week to let you make one last pass before it goes to the printers. Because it has to go to the printers to get printed to get sent to the shops. And the printers won't necesarily stop and wait - they have other books to print. That is the point you so singularly failed to grasp about my one day line - I didn't mean all proofreaders have to do their job at the rate of a book a day, I mean that they are pushed for time. They have to edit the book, make the changes, get it sent to the printer in order to get it into the shops. And if the book is handed in close to deadline, then they have less time to prepare it - from what I can gather from reading comments Sanderson has made, he has to work long hours to get things done. I hardly think everyone else has masses of time to spare for nice, leisurely reads. And when you are up against it, timewise, there does exist the possibility that errors will slip past unnoticed. Unfortunate, but unavoidable unless you are prepared to spend much longer with the book in editing - and thus you delay the book by months. So your recourse as a reader is either to buy a book that you know will have errors, or wait until they have had time to fix them. By refusing to do the latter, you send the message that the errors are acceptable.

He does not lose..he does not need them to fight the battle at SG. He does not need armies for that. He will do his part with a small no of people he trusts. They will go with him regardless of whether he breaks the seals or not. Egwene is not a part of that. He does not even consider her along with Ny as someone to use Callander with him.

 

The armies have to fight to save their homes... he says it again and again. He can organize them but he cannot fight for them. If they don't fight Trollocs will eat them!!

 

 

So is Rand going to destroy those hordes of Shadowspawn by himself? As well as fight the remaining Forsaken?

 

Did Lews Therin Telamon "win" the War of Power by himself? He wasn't even able to seal the Dark One's prison by himself.

 

Rand is not the Creator. He is not a god. He is needed to win but he also needs others to win. To think anything else is illogical.

I think you've said everything I was going to in response to this point: Rand, with just a handful of people at his side, would not stand much of a chance against the entire armies of the Shadow, all the Shadowspawn, Darkfriends, Dreadlords and Chosen they have. Even if the Light's armies only serve as a distraction, drawing the Shadow away so Rand can do his job, they are still an important part of things.

 

 

OK, I'm about to be a bit off-topic, but I really don't see how Andor isn't, in some way, subject to the White Tower if their Queen is. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there was at least one mention where either Morgase or Gareth Bryne, or both, had some sort of plan that the WT disagreed with, and Elaida and Siuan ended up half ordering them out of it- I could be remembering wrong, someone please enlighten me if they have any idea what I'm talking about XD

At a guess, the incident to which you refer is where Bryne wanted to take action against murandian border raiders, and Siuan slapped him down. That's the best fit that springs to mind. Of course, Siuan was in no position to order Bryne if Morgase wasn't willing to go along with things. I don't remember if Morgase was in on things or was just taking the Amyrlin's advice, but either way she didn't have to obey the Amyrlin.

But either way, Morgase wasn't even part of the Tower at this point. If Elayne sees a course of action that will benefit Andor, but harm/ inconvenience/ whatever, the White Tower, then surely if she goes ahead and does it anyway, especially if Egwene/ whoever is Amyrlin at that point, tells her to do otherwise, then she is breaking a law/ rule/ custom of Aes Sedai, and if she doesn't follow the course of action, she will be putting the White Tower ahead of Andor, and thus, in a way, making Andor subject to the rule of the White Tower. Now, don't get me wrong, it may well be that such a situation never arises, and it may well be that the Amyrlin will avoid putting Elayne in any such awkward position due to not wanting to lose a very powerful AS from the ranks.

There are ways around it. If Elayne decides against following a course of action because it will harm Andor, she might be going against Tower law or custom, in which case she might well ask for a penance. So she suffers, but her country doesn't. Also, she can creatively interpret orders so as to minimise harm/maximise gain to Andor, while at the same time benefiting the WT if possible. A difficult line to walk, perhaps, but not impossible.

 

Also, having quite enjoyed Elayne in earlier books, it would be nice to see her having to face this issue and make a decision between her country and the White Tower in AMoL, as I've found her quite dull in the last few books.

I do agree that it would be interesting to see this in practice.

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

 

Man that had me rolling "I have Toh"..... good to see another thread where I'm on the same side as you pretty much the whole time. I will say that even though it's not Egwene or Elayne's fault Caemlyn is being attacked, I still don't think gathering all of his armies to try and stop him makes any sense whatsoever. I get that she thinks she needs to convince him not to break the seals, but sacrificing soldiers who will fight in TG to do so? That I don't understand. I mean, why not just gather all his friends and the rulers from around the world? Why do you need their armies? And it's NOT just for intimidation because Egwene even says "I hope Rand doesn't force my hand" That's not really a criticism of the series, just an example of Egwene bein a bit mistaken about something.

Maybe she feels that he might not listen to the collected rulers and his friends - the armies would then be a backup plan. She doesn't want ot fight him, but will if she feels she has to.

 

 

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

He does not plan to rule through fear..he does not plan to rule at all. But he leads the battle against the DO. He does not need anyone's approval on it. There is no discussion on breaking the seal..he is going to whether Egwene wants or not nothing she can do about it...oh even if he breaks the seal without anyone's approval they STILL have to follow him or else the fight is lost. He is not replaceable.

Neither are they. He needs their support. He cannot win without them. And if he is not ruling them, then he is in no position to order them. He has nothing to bargain with. If he goes ahead with his "plan" and everyone says no, it is too dangerous, he loses. He cannot force them.

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

And if he disregards her as he intends to...what can she do?

 

The Steward of Illian and Tear are a lot more scared of the Dragon than the Amyrlin. She knows that, she also knows if push comes to shove the Aiel will support Rand. He is their own blood and their chief, their ties are a lot more than hers to the Aiel. So basically all she is counting on is the support of Rand's lover...er..How stupid of a plan is this?

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

 

 

I dont like Egwene but Caemlyn's fate is not her fault. Its Elayne's. By definition if you insist on making yourself the final authority over a nation then anything that happens in that nation is your resonsibility. Basically, the buck stops with the Queen. She could have refused to comply with Egwene's desires but she didn't. Similarly, if Tar Valon gets crushed by the Seanchan while its forces are at Merrilor, that will be Egwene's fault alone. And if the same happens to Tear or Illian - Rand's.

What difference would it have made if she hadn't complied? She couldn't prevent the invasion. Caemlyn would be attacked, no two ways about it. The information she needed to stop it was in that letter Mat was so busy not opening.

I have to go with Egwene's great idea of rallying everyone together to tell Rand NOT to break the dark one's seals. Just what was she thinking? Thanks for letting Camelyn fall buddy. Now why don't you just go play in the corner while the grown ups handle the Last Battle.

 

WOW...I have seen Eggy blamed for just about everything on this site but putting the Shadow's attack against Caemlyn on her is a definite first. By that rationale the attack on Maradon is Rand's fault because he is the reason the Borderlander's left their post. Both are fairly ridiculous of course.

 

As for being against breaking the seals. Let's see a man that as far as you know has taint induced madness, waltzes into the WT, says he is going to break the seals and set the DO free and then refuses to discuss the situation with you. WHAT was she thinking!!! You can disagree with how she is going about it as the book progresses, but a frist reaction of trying to stop it and questioning if he has a plan(which he refused to discuss and at this point the plan is let's hope Min figures something out from those old books) is a very valid reaction. Not to mention Rand, for whatever reason purposely antagonized her and AS maneuvered her into doing exactly what he wanted her to do.

 

The attack itself was not her fault but with all of this madness going on around the world at this moment would you leave the capitol of the biggest nation basically undefended? and is it not Rand's duty to fight the dark one? It's like she is still hoping that the Last Battle is a far off thing which it is not. It's right around the corner and if Rand believes he is ready then by god I think everyone should support him. Rand has shown a stubborn streak in the past, Egwene especially should have been aware of that, did she really believe they could talk him out of something in which he has dug his heels in on?

So because Rand is stubborn, no-one should ever try to change his mind? I hope these words don't come back to haunt you if you ever get into an argument with me. Rand gives every impression of his half-baked plan being utter foolishness - Egwene has damn good reason to oppose. Just because Rand has a duty to fight Shai'tan doesn't mean he should go unquestioned - he is capable of making mistakes and doing the wrong thing. And why is it such a mistake to take troops away from the capital? Aside from the fact we see the Band outside Camelyn in the epilogue anyway (it is Olver and Talmanes who see that Caemlyn is on fire) so the capital is not undefended, why should it be considered a major problem? After all, there is more to Andor than Caemlyn - to get to the capital, an enemy army would have to go through the Waygate (thought secure) or go overland - past the border that had its defences increased following rumours of an invasion. And if sufficient Channelers have been left behind, it should be possible to send a message to the FoM, and therefore bring the army to bear. Calling this Egwene's mistake is senseless. Only the Shadow can be blamed for Caemlyn - those on the side of the Light did all they reasonably could to prevent it.

 

 

So, when is it an ideal time for Rand to break the seals? Tomorrow? The day after? Next year? Or how about now. When he feels he is ready. True, there is plenty more to Andor than Camelyn but now how many thousands will die? I know that in the Last Battle plenty are going to die anyway but how many could have been saved if only Egwene didn't strip the land of soldiers to make a big show to Rand that he shouldn't break the seals. I know perhaps if she went along with Rand's idea the troops probably would have been moved anyway but at least then they could have made a unified attack on the Blight. Instead they are all bundled up in one place. I'm not blaming the attack itself on Egwene. I know the attack would have happened regardless of what she did but I don't understand why she tried to rally everyone against Rand at the time he is going to need them the most.

He has no plan. How is he ready? Surely the fate of the world is sufficiently important that one should try to figure out a plan of action before breaking the Seals? How many thousands would die in Caemlyn if the army hadn't been removed? Remember, the army would not necessarily be bunched up in Caemlyn, and even if they were they would awake in the night to find the city under attack - that leads to confusion. So having them in Merrilor, spread around Andor, on the border, outside Caemlyn, inside Caemlyn, whereever you put them, people still die. How many could be saved? Maybe none at all. Maybe it just to more deaths. As for the troops all being bundled up in one place, surely this is ideal for making a unified attack? And lastly, just because Rand needs the people doesn't mean he is doing the right thing.

 

 

so anyways, no. releasing typos to store shelves is totally unprofessional and unnecessary. all you have to do to catch them is proofread! and I'm pretty sure they are given more than one day to do so...lol

Proofreading is only "all you need to do" if you look at things in a vacuum. Looked at in context, there is much more to publishing a book. And they only have a short space to do it. A large book in little time. People working long hours in order to get it done on time. Various rounds of editing. Yes, the odd little thing will get missed. If you are Tom Doherty, you have the following choices: get the book out, accepting there will be mistakes; delay the book for months, missing Chritmas. Tor is a business. Christmas is a lucrative period. Missing out on all that money would be unprofessional. Further, the fans would be annoyed at the delay. So basically, in trying to remove a mere handful of errors, you cost a company a lot of money and piss everyone off. No-one benefits from doing things your way - everyone loses out.

 

You have a day.

can I get a babysitter to watch all my kids?

I don't see why you should.

But that was one of my complaints.. why take 3 books to finish any of their storylines? I mean really like you said he could combined most of the books later in the series; CoT coulda been a short story like NS if you cut out the overly done baths, dress descriptions etc. All the story lines were moving along pretty well until ACoS after that moved along like it was stuck in frozen molasses. I'm reading TSR and he's still giving descriptions of characters that he did from the first book..why? No one is going to start the series on book 4, are they?

People might not start reading with book 4 (although at least one person on this forum did), but people are not necessarily going to read straight through. If you read a book, then read another ninety or so before the next one came out, then started on the new one you might want a little bit of a refresher as to how the OP worked, what the characters looked like, etc. Not everyone remembers all these little details. As for why take three books to finish their storylines, I would suggest because it wasn't planned to. He didn't know how long it would take, how many words he would have written before he next got to a convenient stopping point. So he writes PoD, and doesn't know if he could make it one long book or two shorter ones if he carries on with the material for WH. And fans have already waited a few years. They wait a couple more and end up with two books anyway, perhaps? Mistakes were made, undoubtedly, but I don't think it unreasonable given the size of the task, how long it was taking, the amount of work involved, that some mistakes would be made.

 

 

commercial success equals = more sequels, for better OR worse. two words (and a number): butterfly effect 2. if you're going to buy something just because of it's name, then someones going to sell it to you, done deal. and worry about making it (good) later.

So you believe that no-one with any commercial success has any artistic integrity? A pessimistic view, but not one I share.

 

lol @ defense of typos! sorry but there is no excuse for shoddy work. I don't care how stressed the editor(s) are. omg he has a lot of responsibilities? five kids and a night job on the side? then he has my sympathies however a job is still a job and it should still be done right. and if he can't then give that percentage of his salary to me and I will, and it will take less than a week and I will get them all, thats all I'm sayin. it's not that hard. lol @ 'don't buy it' that's your solution?

Yes, not buying something because you deem it to be of poor quality is a perfectly valid solution. By buying it, you are indicating that whatever faults exist, you are willing to buy it now rather than wait for them to be fixed. By continuing to buy the series despite knowledge of the faults, you are indicating you don't care all that much. Mouthing off on the internet won't change anything. Waiting for the problems to be fixed before buying does. As I said, there is more to editing than spotting typos. If you think you can do Harriet's job, I think you should know that. And why should I give you a week? You have a day. A day to read the book, spot all the errors, and send it back to the author with corrections and suggestions. Does this action fit this character? What is the point of this scene? Is this sentence clear enough? And you would be working from the manuscript, with undoubtedly more errors than the finished version you bought.

 

as well as a decline in overall quality after book 7. yes I think we were milked for about 2 extra books, agree. that was nicely said

Clearly you don't agree, as I don't believe we were milked. I'm saying you can claim two books at most. I think the amount that could be trimmed from CoT is often exaggerated, and KoD was one of the longest books in the series - combining the two might not be practical. Further, it was RJ's attmept to experiment with structure that caused many of CoT's problems, and that's a problem that could only be solved by forcing fans to wait several more years.

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

 

 

1. She knows that Traveling is a possibility, and therefore a danger;

2. She SHOULD know that the Seanchan have taken women who know the traveling weave prisoner. If she doesn't, THAT is Egwene's fault;

3. She knows about Raken and To'Raken;

4. We don't actually know if she knows about the Waygate or not. She might very well.

5. Her borders are with countries not overrun by the Seanchan of the Shadow, which ought to strongly suggest that she show a little more imagination;

6. She has said herself that Caemlyn IS Andor. Border raids are not the danger;

7. All of these points notwithstanding, going might be a risk she had to take, IF there were a compelling reason to do so. There is not.

8. "Wah, wah, others do it too!" is not a defense. Yes, many other leaders have been negligent. Not the Borderlanders; they knew the cost but had that compelling reason that Elayne does not. But Tear and Illian, certainly.

Traveling might be a danger, but how can she guard against it? The Seanchan could potentially attack any part of her country and she can't spread her troops out everywhere - they'd be too thin on the ground to do any good. Gateways allow her to respond rapidly, but she can use them from Merrilor as easily as Caemlyn. She knows about Raken and To'raken, but so what? We have no reason to believe the Waygate is unguarded. Her northern border is with the Caralain Grass, a big, empty region. If the Borderlands fell, the Shadow would have a clear run to Andor. Caemlyn is not Andor - her storyline shows the lie in that old saying. And also, if someone attacks, you generally want to stop them before they get to the important places, like your capital city. There is no benefit to her staying put in Caemlyn. She would be able to do her normal, day to day duties, but would be absent from a summit to decide a course of action at TG. The latter is decidedly more important.