Well, the Two Rivers is fertile enough to have world famous tabac. I mean, that’s HUGE. Even the SeaFolk know about it right? That alone should be enough for the Two River’s to have EXPLODED. And their wool was decently well known right? Actually I’m not sure why Andor’s rules wouldn’t be taking huge advantage of that. They do for the Mines in the MoM, wonder why they ignore the world’s best tabac?

Because they couldn't collect from both and the mines were worth more. Also, we know from the first book that the TR is not an easy place to live - those who aren't stubborn get out. They need to be stubborn to make a living there. Their tabac may be world famous, but it's still not easy to grow.

Are there examples of people leaving given?

No, it is only stated that those who aren't stubborn enough to deal with wolves eating their sheep, and storms wrecking their crops, and all the other little disasters, move away.

 

I just think flying, holes in space/time etc would kill physics. Especially energy consumption, and creating the holes in space/time. I mean, why would it take more energy to make the hole depending on where it was (RJ's comment about travelling to another planet). Would defy the implied science of their magic. The idea that lifting something with air is defined by weight is fine, but you can't lift yourself, why not? See, I think it would get weird.

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

At the end of Eye of the World Rand hears a voice that yells "IT IS NOT HERE" and "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ON CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" "NOT HERE"

 

What was that? Or who? Was it ever touched upon again? Odd that I never noticed that (Just started another reread)

Unknown. Most common speculation is that it's the Creator.

That seems an awful lot like taking part. (Telling someone they have to do it on their own).

 

No questions were ever asked of it at any RJ event?

It was asked. It was RAFOed. And telling people that you're not taking part is taking part now?

 

Telling someone that you won't help and they have to do it themselves, yea that's taking part. If the voice had never spoken, would Rand had acted? Kinda huge if it is the Creator.

I'd say that is a highly singular view on what constitutes taking part. (How different school sports days would have been if the mere declaration that I wouldn't take part was enough to constitute my taking part.) If the voice hadn't spoken, Rand would have acted. He wasn't inclined to sit around waiting for divine intervention before, I don't see why he would be now.

 

Yes, and then there's the issue of Rand knowing where to Skim, even if we accept that it indeed was Rand who made that Gateway. Since this comes up every now and then, and since no one saw fit to cover all of our bases, let me just throw this out there: we've seen only one other entity speak with ALL CAPS: the DO. We've reason to believe Moridin can hear the DO even outside the Pit of Doom, if much further in the story. How Rand might do the same, even before his link to Moridin, is a difficult question (the only possibility I can come up with is, as Moiraine said, that each time you let the DO touch you makes the next touching easier. Having Ishamael in his dreams for a long time might've done the trick -- indeed it was too late for Moiraine to expel him by the time she found out, in Caemlyn).

Of course, the problem with it being Shai'tan is that He very much does take a part in proceedings, at least at other points in the series. If He was able to act here, why would He be reluctant to do so? Whereas not taking part does fit with the Creator's M.O.

At the end of Eye of the World Rand hears a voice that yells "IT IS NOT HERE" and "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ON CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" "NOT HERE"

 

What was that? Or who? Was it ever touched upon again? Odd that I never noticed that (Just started another reread)

Unknown. Most common speculation is that it's the Creator.

That seems an awful lot like taking part. (Telling someone they have to do it on their own).

 

No questions were ever asked of it at any RJ event?

It was asked. It was RAFOed. And telling people that you're not taking part is taking part now?

Well, the Two Rivers is fertile enough to have world famous tabac. I mean, that’s HUGE. Even the SeaFolk know about it right? That alone should be enough for the Two River’s to have EXPLODED. And their wool was decently well known right? Actually I’m not sure why Andor’s rules wouldn’t be taking huge advantage of that. They do for the Mines in the MoM, wonder why they ignore the world’s best tabac?

Because they couldn't collect from both and the mines were worth more. Also, we know from the first book that the TR is not an easy place to live - those who aren't stubborn get out. They need to be stubborn to make a living there. Their tabac may be world famous, but it's still not easy to grow.

At the end of Eye of the World Rand hears a voice that yells "IT IS NOT HERE" and "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ON CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" "NOT HERE"

 

What was that? Or who? Was it ever touched upon again? Odd that I never noticed that (Just started another reread)

Unknown. Most common speculation is that it's the Creator.

I apologize for not reading every post, but this technological stagnation (and really economic balance in my opinion) is the premise of a lot of fantasy. I tend to believe that social and technological stagnation is a necessary evil of magic. If you think about it, what reason is there to develop complicated medical science when when our best medical efforts in the real world pale in comparison to those of Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah.

The Yellow Ajah are not always available. Only 1% of the population can channel at all, not all of them will become channelers, not all of them have great strength, not all of them will have any noteable degree of skill with Healing (some strong AS lack enough Talent in Healing to Heal a bruise). Unless useful magic is readily available, there is an incentive to find non-magical solutions to problems.

 

While I appreciate these points, I don't believe they would matter to the population of the world at large. Almost every single disease has already been conquered. What is the point of more medical advancement. Medicine akin to our in such a world would really only be seen as the advil of the curative world. It would only be useful for a quick fix. Almost every kind of terminal disease is curable with a pilgrimage to the White Tower in the North and Central of the continent. Those in the South can simply go visit a Ring member near them. I believe this would be similar to the doctor shortage we currently have. Because we suffer from a dearth of doctors, to cure most serious recurring disease takes months. But most people don't see too much with it because we know that if we had a truly large problem, we could get it fixed with enough perseverance. This kind of mindset is endemic.

 

I really think that it would affect a magic using world in a serious way causing lethargy and general malaise with regard to technology. The best and easiest way to advance technology is to identify magic users and utilize them to their fullest the way the Seanchan empire does. Why create a bulldozer when you can leash a woman who can do much the same thing and more. Further, this tool won't break down for 300+ years. In the world of the Wheel of Time, I believe that the Seanchan solution is the most likely progression.

How does slavery and human rights abuse advance technology? If we applied that same thinking to our own wolrd, we'd come up with "who needs a tractor, I've got a whip." As for Healing, bear in mind that most people don't have access to channelers. The bulk of Healing is done by wisdoms/wise women/insert local title. While some of them might be wilders, most of them aren't. Now, if you break your leg, does it make more sense to have someone local who knows how to treat a broken leg, or to get in your cart, pulled by your oxen (because clearly neither of these things will be needed on the farm), all the way to Tar Valon. And then wait to get seen, and then make the journey back. It's a hell of a trip, and grossly inefficient. Yes, if a Yellow happens to be wandering by she would be your best bet. But in the absence of Yellows, surely it makes sense to learn how to deal with injuries and illnesses? There is still a need for medical advancement, because most people can't get magic doctors so they have to rely on regular ones. By the same token, if the richest in our own world had access to magic healers, and were the only ones with such access, there would still be a need for hosiptals and doctors of the more mundane variety, because poor people get cancer too. There are not enough Yellows for there to be an excuse for lack of innovation in medical care. There are not enough channelers to solve all the worlds problems. Therefore the reason for technological stagnation does not exist.

 

Rand should make the people at his schools focus on the problem of food spoilage. But like all autocrats, he has little concern for the every day needs of tme people. He sees grand visions of a return to the way things used to be. With greater centralization, we see greater innovation, but this innovation is forced on people. Very few people care about recapturing old technologies when the demands for living day to day are so pressing. The more you remove the individual's desires government, the more government can focus on steam engines and the like.

Rand's motivation is to leave something positive behind. To not be remembered purely as a conqueror and destroyer. Asking them to help with the problem of food spoilage might help in the short term. Or it might do nothing if they can't find any useful solution for a problem of that scale. Surely best to encourage them to make advances is the fields they understand best.

 

My food spoilage quip was sarcasm. Though it is fair to point out that a grant system would be much more economically feasible than Rand's schools. Most of the research done at Rand's schools is pointless given that the world is poised on the edge of the final battle. It is clearly just a last, desperate effort for Rand to immortalize his short reign. I thing it would be much more fiscally responsible for him to just have a statue built and put the rest of the money towards the war effort.

Short sighted. The world will still exist after TG. Planning for afterwards not a waste.

You have a very odd take on it. Rand is LTT, they were never seperate. Rand is the contiuation of the dragon soul, just as Moridin is the contiuation of the Ishamael soul. That he didn't know he was the continuation makes little difference now that he has all of the memories and experiences of his past life.

 

Yes he had a second childhood, but he is still the same person, he told Min as much, and I am pretty sure the is Word of God that they are the same.

They were separate. When Rand was born, there was no LTT. It was only during the course of the series that LTT appeared in Rand's head. Even now, it is the addition of LTT to Rand. Moridin is Ishamael in a new body, something which is quite different to Rand being a new person with LTT's memories integrated. Rand is, if anything, closer to Mat. Do you want to claim Mat is several centuries old and the same person as all his memories?

 

Edit: Also, if you want Word of God, how about this:

Question

The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

Robert Jordan

 

They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

At the end of ToM, LTT and Rand have merged, making him the same age as the Forsaken.

Well, at the end of ToM all of his past lives merged making him infinately old, but physically he is twenty twoish.

These are both wrong. Rand is not the same age as the Chosen. he might have memories going back hundreds of years, but there are only twenty two years between his birth and where he is now - that makes him about twenty two. Having past life memories does not make you older. And Rand has forgotten everything before LTT anyway, so claims of infinite age are even more absurd. Rand's soul is ancient. Rand himself is a specific incarnation of that soul, and is not ancient. He was born at the end of the Aiel War. He's in his twenties.

Well, he is close to the age Moridin is then, if you are only talking about the age of the body they inhabit. Cyndane and the gar's while they were alive too were said to be in their twenties. So he is the same age as 2 of the 5 (I think) still left alive by your reckoning.

Transmigration and reincarnation are not the same thing. Moridin picked up where Ishamael left off, as did Cyndane with Lanfear, Osan'gar with Aginor and Aran'gar with Balthamel. Rand did not pick up where LTT left off. He began a new life, from birth. So no, Rand is in his early twenties, LTT was several hundred years old when he died, but those years are not added to Rand, nor is the intervening space when neither was alive. The transmigrated Chosen are in bodies many centuries younger than their actual ages, but they did actually live those lives. The previous inhabitants of the bodies were removed.

Mr. Ares: yeah, I'm not really concerned with the perception of randlands population, they have less schooling and no scientific method, little mathematical modeling, that we saw growing up, exponential growth graphs etc... they may not have understood how broken their population growth was, we do and it is not subtle.

Their population should have been growing, but it fell dramatically.

It fell dramatically over the course of 1,000 years. That's precisely why I term it subtle. Yes, it has a very noticeable effect over a prolonged period, but it needs a long period to become apparent. Over a short period, it is not noticeable. A definition of subtle: "fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand". The population decline is difficult to perceive. It requires centuries of information.

 

I apologize for not reading every post, but this technological stagnation (and really economic balance in my opinion) is the premise of a lot of fantasy. I tend to believe that social and technological stagnation is a necessary evil of magic. If you think about it, what reason is there to develop complicated medical science when when our best medical efforts in the real world pale in comparison to those of Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah.

The Yellow Ajah are not always available. Only 1% of the population can channel at all, not all of them will become channelers, not all of them have great strength, not all of them will have any noteable degree of skill with Healing (some strong AS lack enough Talent in Healing to Heal a bruise). Unless useful magic is readily available, there is an incentive to find non-magical solutions to problems.

But it's not what we're saying. You disagree. That's okay, but it doesn't justify repeating the same argument as if nothing contradictory has been said. Again: the paranoia enters where it made him aware of Rand's disappearance, and where to look for him. That's it; it doesn't enter into his motive for rescuing Rand, as you suggest RJ said (or so we propose).

Then what is his motive for resucing Rand? That's precisely my point, it being orders from above makes no sense, you yourself have admitted as much. Paranoia, not orders, made him aware. Paranoia, not orders, told him where to look. And if he isn't doing it because someone else told him to, then he is doing it of his own volition. You haven't said anything contradictory to my point, yoniy0. You haven't truly addressed my point at all.

At the end of ToM, LTT and Rand have merged, making him the same age as the Forsaken.

Well, at the end of ToM all of his past lives merged making him infinately old, but physically he is twenty twoish.

These are both wrong. Rand is not the same age as the Chosen. he might have memories going back hundreds of years, but there are only twenty two years between his birth and where he is now - that makes him about twenty two. Having past life memories does not make you older. And Rand has forgotten everything before LTT anyway, so claims of infinite age are even more absurd. Rand's soul is ancient. Rand himself is a specific incarnation of that soul, and is not ancient. He was born at the end of the Aiel War. He's in his twenties.

 

It wasn't paranoia that led to him finding Rand, it was just looking.

Well, as I've already said:

RJ said he was paranoid to explain why he had eyes on Rand and everyone else, which is to say, how he'd known to go looking for Rand, and in what general direction. This says little of why he'd be interested in locating and saving Rand.

His paranoia isn't the reason he went after Rand; it's the reason he learned of the need to do so. And obviously Mesaana has given up on having Rand brought to her (or someone else decided that wasn't the best recourse), otherwise it would not have been considered a victory to the Shadow to have Rand freed, and Taim would've been punished. So really, I don't think you have a solid ground to stand on here.

Also, I very much doubt that Taim's going to Rand in the first place was only to do with his needing sanctuary. Regardless, having Rand in AS custody does nothing to affect Taim's position as head of an organization of male chanelers, numbering close to the AS and growing each passing day. He was safe enough, no matter where Rand is. And his associations only help in that regard (unless, of course, he does something to derail the FS's plans, that is).

Taim is head of an organisation create by the Dragon. He owes his position to Rand - Rand falling into the hands of the AS is not something that works to his benefit. True, getting rid of the Asha'man would be tough, but if the AS convinced Rand to publically denounce them, then life becomes that much harder for him, in terms of recruitment and political survival. Rand being free works to his benefit. So we have good reason to believe Taim would want to protect Rand's liberty, unless he had contradictory orders from his superiors, or Rand threatened to undermine Taim himself. Frankly, I don't think any notion that Taim was acting under orders from the Shadow has any leg to stand on. If he was acting under orders, paranoia doesn't enter into it. If he's not acting under orders, then why did he do it? Do you have a valid explanation other than his own volition?

 

Is Shaidar Haran the DO's consciousness incarnate? Or a separate entity/consciousness? Do we even know?

According to RJ he is "the Dark One in shadowy form."

 

1. I agree with Yoniy0, paranoia doesn't explain it. Well, it explains that was a major emotion involved, but it doesn't explain why. Having Demandred, Shaidar Haran or the DO himself ordering you to locate and keep Rand alive (like Osangar in aCoS) and he has just been captured would make anyone paranoid.

No it wouldn't. Being ordered to rescue Rand by such figures would make him eager to rescue Rand, but it in no way explains paranoia. Simply put, there is nothing to indicate that Taim was acting under orders, and evidence to indicate he was acting according to his own paranoia - no matter how justified that paranoia was. Acting on his own is exactly what I said.

I already provided the RJ quote, and my reasoning when Terez objected to my conclusion.

Okay, so there are three issues here. The first, that I missed your reply on that point (or I'd have replied sooner). The second, that you haven't really -- you just said why you believe RJ's words fit better with his not acting under orders (which is hardly justification to start referring to it as a given fact). And the third, that I completely disagree. RJ said he was paranoid to explain why he had eyes on Rand and everyone else, which is to say, how he'd known to go looking for Rand, and in what general direction. This says little of why he'd be interested in locating and saving Rand.

Now, obviously, it does contradicts the theory that Taim was is the know regarding the whole scheme from the get-go. But just as obvious is the fact that Taim has thrown his lot in with the Shadow, and so that he would act of his own volition in a situation as sensitive as this one is beyond unlikely. It's also telling that he wasn't reprimanded in any way, shape or form we could detect (and when the Shadow punishes someone, we can usually tell just by seeing them through another's perspective).

On the other hand, if he was acting under orders to locate and rescue Rand, the line about him being paranoid makes no sense. It wasn't paranoia that led to him finding Rand, it was just looking. Paranoia gives him a reason to look. A reason that makes no sense if his reason for looking is he was under orders to get Rand out. Taim went to Rand in the first place because of the promise of safety Rand offered. Therefore it makes sense for him to want to protect that promise of safety, unless he has orders from the Shadow to the contrary. There is no need for the Shdow to reprimand Taim if his actions end up serving the Shadow's ends. So, given that Taim has reason enough to want to protect Rand even if the Shadow didn't explicitly order him to, and his stated reason to go looking for Rand makes no sense if he was ordered to go looking, then what conclusions can we draw? That Taim rescued Rand of his own volition, not on orders from on high.

 

 

is it ever stated wich age Rand is in ToM

Dont forget they lost 6 months with the portal stone. But really, what does that matter when he is over 3000 years old :)

Rand is not 3,000 years old. He is in his early twenties (born in 978, it's now 1000). And they lost four months, not six.

Taim acted of his own volition, not orders from the Chosen

How do you know that?

I already provided the RJ quote, and my reasoning when Terez objected to my conclusion.

Mr Ares: completely didn't understand your remark...

Whcih part didn't you understand? If it was the part about subtlety, allow me to explain b way of an analogy. If you had a favourite chair, and I shaved a tiny bit off the ends of the legs, then over time your chair would end up much lower. It is a subtle change - less than a millimetre being lost each time - but the effect eventually becomes very noticeable. By the same token, the declining birthrate is subtle. It's not like they woke up one morning and all the children were gone, it's a case of it becoming apparent over a long period that something is amiss. If it was unsubtle, it would be immeditately apparent. That it took so long to become truly noticeable indicates a subtle change. The eternal summer was also a subtle change - it starts as a regular summer. Then that summer goes on a bit longer than normal. It's only over time that it becomes apparent that there is a deeper problem.

Of course it qualifies as leading. He took charge, organised resistance.

You're misunderstanding me on purpose. But ok.

No, you're explaining yourself poorly. By what measure was Perrin not acting like a leader in the TR?

 

 

Ta'veren alters probability, not possibility. If ta'veren is the basis of your argument, then at best Mat made it more likely to happen. Without him it still could. Plus, if the Pattern needed it to happen and mat was not available, it could create another ta'veren. Not really anything Mat did.

There was no guarentee of this happening without Mat. In fact they took him along to make it more likely that it would happen, because they knew he would be of help. They went to see him, ended up with Setalle, because they knew they needed him. You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.

There was no guarantee of it happening even with Mat. And while he did contribute, your initial claim was that he was the person primarily resonsible - "the reason most of the population isn't dead right now." By the same token, without Nynaeve and ELayne going there, the Bowl would never be used. Without Setalle, the Kin are never found so Mat doesn't find the Bowl. So Mat has to share credit with Setalle, Elayne, Nynaeve, and everyone else involved. Put like that, Mat looks rather less special. How can his acievements outshine Perrin's, when he has done something that every man and his dog has accomplished as well? While Mat was a contributor, he was not the person primarily responsbile for the Bowl being used to clear up the weather.

 

 

Wanting Mat dead does not preclude causing havoc. Does it display a desire to cause havoc? Does it have any havoc causing plans after Mat is gone? The gholam counts as Mat survivng an attempt on his own life, which all the boys have done. Mat just had to deal with a unique assassin. Insignificant achievement in the wider scheme.

 

Yes it displays a desire to cause havoc. It loves being free and can't wait to taste the blood of other channelers. What's holding him back? His mission, which now chiefly focuses around Mat. Imagine that thing free in the AS camp. What would have stopped it?

When does it display a desire to cause havoc? Also, as to what would stop it, I would imagine much the same thing as actually stopped it. It can be driven off by channelers, and it was forcing it through a Gateway that actually killed it. Also, other ter'angreal exist with the same function as the foxhead, so they likely have the same side effects. Again, this is good work on Mat's part, but had Mat not been there the shape of the story would not be dramatcially different.

 

 

 

That she used the Band does not mean the Band is the only thing that could be used. Mat's army - not Mat himself - was conveniently placed for Egwene to use. Mat himself did nothing, that is Egwene's achievement. If you want to give credit to Mat, then Mat is Dragonsworn, and the only reason he had an army in the vicinty is Rand. Therefore it is Rand who gets credit, not Mat. Rand moved the army, Egwene used it, Mat was present. Might as well give Talmanes credit for that one, or maybe Nerim.

 

Why was the Band there? Mat could have refused. Why did Mat do it? Because he felt the need to help his friends. Mat just going there allowed her access to the Band, Mat choosing to go with Ny and Elayne allowed her further access to the Band, Mat telling Talmanes to trail Eggy allowed her to use the band.

Mat was there because Rand sent him there. It was done on Rand's orders, and Rand opened the Gateway that got them there. Given that getting Elayne to Caemlyn was the mission, he couldn't very well stay behind, and nor could he take the entire Band with him. Mat was involved, certainly, but it was Egwene's achievement first and foremost, and Rand made it possible. It's a big stretch to give credit to Mat.

 

 

You mean Egwene. And no, Egwene would have the Seat anyway - Elaida's incompetence compared to Egwene saw to that. And attacking the WT was soemthing the Seanchan had planned anyway. So Mat's impact has been to make things that would have happened happen at a slightly different time to when they would otherwise have occured? He hasn't changed any outcomes.

 

Yes that's what I meant. Again, no guarentee Elaida would have been unseated anytime soon. They planned it, but Tuon didn't approve. Remember she states her meeting with Rand made the decision for her.

But Mat didn't. Mat was mentioned at the meeting, but he had no impact on the outcome - she made her move because she needed to strike at Rand. Mat had nothing to do with that result. And Elaida was growing weaker evey damn day, and Egwene stronger. So yes, it would happen soon, it happened sooner because of the attack, but the attack had nothing to do with Mat so in no way does Mat get credit.

 

 

Size matters not. It is not numbers of Shaido that are important, but threat - they are no longer a threat thanks to Perrin. They were before. As for giving the Seanchan hundreds of weapons, if they are useful at TG then that is a further point in his favour.

 

They were a threat on the other side of the world near nothing at that point? They're still as much of a threat where they were (they just went up into the mountains as far as Perrin knows) as they are now. And that is a big IF right there. You can claim the wise ones would have fought on their own at the last battle. Huge if.

The Shaido were not on the far side of the world. They were gathering strength, after being spread out. Now, they are resolved to return to the Three Fold Land. In other words, it is thanks to Perrin's actions that they have decided to remove themselves from the Westlands, and thus remove themselves as a threat to the Westlands. As for the Wise Ones, if they had fought at TG, then it is zero sum. Nothing is gaine,d nothing is lost - they fight as damane rather than free. It is neither a point for nor one against Perrin, save the moral one (which comes down to whether it is better to enslave than murder).

 

 

 

It's not silly to say Perrin did more than Mat. Presented in the right light, Mat's accomplishments look pretty paltry next to Perrin's. You've hardly offered a decent argument against that.

 

In your mind perhaps, I feel your "arguments" were hardly decent.

 

But hey, that's how debates work! What a wonder.

But I can back my points up, rather than just saying Mat is awesome, Perrin sucks and hoping people believe it.

How does killing the royal family of an empire that is trying to take over his realm let him rule? Are you serious? Stopping the Seanchan is the epitome of letting Rand rule.

 

Putting in a box isn't sure, but breaking him out of that box? Definatly letting him rule.

Semi didn't stop the Seanchan. She removed the Imperial family, but they were too far away to truly impact on the situation in the Westlands. At best it limits the possibility of reinforcements coming from Seanchan, but they were not relying on reinforcements anyway, so it's really a non-factor with regards to Rand. Nothing at all to do with him. Also, the Shadow did not break Rand out of the box. They were complicit in the plan to lock him away, but it was not a Shadow plot from on high that broke him out. Perrin was not following a Shadow plot, Taim acted of his own volition, not orders from the Chosen, and Sevanna sought to control Rand herself. So, again, no use of the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" is consistent with a plan to let Rand rule. Attacking Rand indirectly was a part of the strategy they were using at that time, but it does not follow that that means Rand is the Lord of Chaos.

And Perrin led men since returning to the TR - so he's been leading longer than Mat. He didn't refuse to lead either. So your point is that while leading men, he wasn't exactly happy about having to lead men? Same is true of all of the boys. Which was my point.

 

What Perrin was doing originally in the Two Rivers hardly qualifies as leading. People followed sure, but he hardly led. My personal opinion, I know.

Of course it qualifies as leading. He took charge, organised resistance.

 

 

Mat's importance to the resolution to the Bowl of the Winds storyline was marginal. It was used without him, it would have been found without him.

 

False. His taveran nature was what caused Elyane and Ny to get caught up with Setalle and dragged to the group. Without Mat there, no bowl would have been found.

Ta'veren alters probability, not possibility. If ta'veren is the basis of your argument, then at best Mat made it more likely to happen. Without him it still could. Plus, if the Pattern needed it to happen and mat was not available, it could create another ta'veren. Not really anything Mat did.

 

 

It never displayed much intention of wreaking havoc, though. Not much of an achievement. He killed something that tried to kill him. Tricky, but not massively important in the wider scheme.

Because it was focused on Mat because he hurt it. It wanted Mat dead with a passion. That's why it didn't wreak much havoc.

Wanting Mat dead does not preclude causing havoc. Does it display a desire to cause havoc? Does it have any havoc causing plans after Mat is gone? The gholam counts as Mat survivng an attempt on his own life, which all the boys have done. Mat just had to deal with a unique assassin. Insignificant achievement in the wider scheme.

 

 

No. Egwene soldified control on her own. Mat did precious little to help here.

And how did she get the sisters moving? The Band. Without the band, no moving. No moving, no meeting up with those nobles and forcing the sisters to let her lead.

That she used the Band does not mean the Band is the only thing that could be used. Mat's army - not Mat himself - was conveniently placed for Egwene to use. Mat himself did nothing, that is Egwene's achievement. If you want to give credit to Mat, then Mat is Dragonsworn, and the only reason he had an army in the vicinty is Rand. Therefore it is Rand who gets credit, not Mat. Rand moved the army, Egwene used it, Mat was present. Might as well give Talmanes credit for that one, or maybe Nerim.

 

 

It might have big repurcussions, but it hasn't yet. So I think you're speaking a bit too soon.

 

It's already having effects. Rand's meeting with Tuon, she mentions Mat, which sets Ny off, which makes Tuon think, causing her to go ahead with the attack on the WT, leading to Elayne getting the seat.

You mean Egwene. And no, Egwene would have the Seat anyway - Elaida's incompetence compared to Egwene saw to that. And attacking the WT was soemthing the Seanchan had planned anyway. So Mat's impact has been to make things that would have happened happen at a slightly different time to when they would otherwise have occured? He hasn't changed any outcomes.

 

 

Perrin tied a string to the Seanchan, destroyed the Shaido, and indirectly helped to bring about Mesaana's condition (he brought the Dreamspike to TV, which kept the AS and BA in the area, rather than where they had a trap prepared. Thus negating their advantage, thus contributing to a WT victory. Really, it's all about spin. You want to make Perrin look bad and Mat look good, so you exaggerate Mat's achievements and downplay Perrin's. By the same token, one can downplay Mat's and exaggerate Perrin's.

 

Mat's string is bigger, there are plently of Shaido left, even if they stayed where they were, they were in no one's way at that location. Perrin also gave the Seanchan hundreds of weapons in the form of the Wise Ones.

Size matters not. It is not numbers of Shaido that are important, but threat - they are no longer a threat thanks to Perrin. They were before. As for giving the Seanchan hundreds of weapons, if they are useful at TG then that is a further point in his favour.

 

It is all about spin, I agree. But to say Perrin did much more than Mat is just silly. Personally I'd give the edge to Mat, but they may be equal. (That was my original debate I believe)

It's not silly to say Perrin did more than Mat. Presented in the right light, Mat's accomplishments look pretty paltry next to Perrin's. You've hardly offered a decent argument against that.

I don't really understand your objections, do you think that there is someone else who is The lord of chaos or do you think it is just a saying to letave the world alone? If it refers to a specific person, then it can only refer t o Rand because he is the only ruler to actually do anything, apart from the Seanchant empress whose name escapes me for the minute. If you think it is just to leave the world alone then nothing you raised really effects that.

 

The argument that it is Rand is bourne out with the fact that trying to force the nations to fight the shadow almost turned him to the shadow, so it was a very good plan. If it wasn't for one very specific detail, Tam visiting him at a calm time that pushed him to the brink too early, he would of snapped at taimon gaiden and led the dark one to victory, or stalemate atleast.

 

If it meant to let the world fall to anarchy, why were the chosen not allowed to interfere? Sammael atleast thought it meant Rand was to rule, though the fact that he wasn't at the meeting does work against that interpretation. Why was a descriptor needed? Let Chaos Rule would be enough if there was no individual involved. It would also be a nice catechism for any darkfriends you ought encounter.

 

I would like you to name someone else who fits the moniker other than Rand.

I said it wasn't a specific individual. Rand fits just as badly as everyone else. How does killing the Seanchan Imperial family and causing a civil war on the far side of the Aryth contribute to letting Rand rule? How does Reds bonding Asha'man further the goal of letting Rand rule? How does kidnapping Rand and locking him in a box fit with letting him rule?

Mr. Ares Randland has had 996 years of relative calm, the entire time the population has been decreasing, it isn't subtle and unnoticed, it has been noticed, Ingtar says it out loud.

What is unclear is how it is happening... what mechanism is in effect? why just randland and not the Aiel?

It doesn't make sense.

It does make sense. I explained it. And yes, it is subtle. Something becoming apparent over the course of 996 years is not evidence against it being subtle. If anything, it is evidence for - an unsublte change would be easier to notice. A gradual change would not be immediately apparent. Over a prolonged period, the effects would become hard to miss.

 

Are we sure that the population is actually in decline? Or are we just going off of the inability of governments to hold onto territory and maintain themselves?

Yes, we are sure that the population is in decline. There are a great many sparsely inhabited regions on the map.

It did not take Perrin the same amount of time to decide he had to lead. Mat and Rand had it figured out right after the Waste, Perrin was still struggling in the two rivers about being a temporary leader, or leading just so people wouldn't follow Lord Luc (which makes no sense at all either, I mean I understadn the guy was evil, but discount that and you come to a conclusion that he took command just to keep it from someone else, wth is he 5?)

It is entirely reasonable to take a position of responsibility or leadership in order to prevent someone less suitable taking that position. if anything, Perrin was acting as a leader before Mat, as Perrin was leading the TR - a position he never abandoned - during TSR, but Mat only took on a position of leadership in FoH, while trying to escape during the fighting against the Shaido. Plus, of course, one can hardly complain about Perrin being reluctant to accept his fate next to Mat "I am no bloody Lord" Cauthon. Hell, Rand was still fighting things up to VoG.

Mat saying I'm no Lord, is not refusing to lead. He led men while saying that.

And Perrin led men since returning to the TR - so he's been leading longer than Mat. He didn't refuse to lead either. So your point is that while leading men, he wasn't exactly happy about having to lead men? Same is true of all of the boys. Which was my point.

 

More accomplished? Mat is the reason most of the population isn't dead (Bowl of winds anyone) right now.

Mat's importance to the resolution to the Bowl of the Winds storyline was marginal. It was used without him, it would have been found without him.

Mat destroyed a AS killer. The Gholam could have wreaked havoc!

It never displayed much intention of wreaking havoc, though. Not much of an achievement. He killed something that tried to kill him. Tricky, but not massively important in the wider scheme.

Mat got the AS army on the move (with the band of the red hand) and allowed Eggy to take full control.

No. Egwene soldified control on her own. Mat did precious little to help here.

Mat kidnapped the leader of perhaps the strongest single force in the world and tied a string to her. She will change. There will be ramifications from his meeting and falling in love with her.

It might have bit repurcussions, but it hasn't yet. So I think you're speaking a bit too soon.

 

Perrin did save Rand, with help, but I wouldn't say he did more. Other than that? Killed a madman. Saved his town, I mean sure that's some people but importance wise, his best thing was saving Rand.

Perrin tied a string to the Seanchan, destroyed the Shaido, and indirectly helped to bring about Mesaana's condition (he brought the Dreamspike to TV, which kept the AS and BA in the area, rather than where they had a trap prepared. Thus negating their advantage, thus contributing to a WT victory. Really, it's all about spin. You want to make Perrin look bad and Mat look good, so you exaggerate Mat's achievements and downplay Perrin's. By the same token, one can downplay Mat's and exaggerate Perrin's.

 

Oh yea I forgot Mat got Moiraine, which given Min's visions we know Rand cannot win without her. So that alone puts him above Perrin. No way Perrin accomplished more than Mat. Now I'm not saying he didn't step up in the end, he just took his damn time and fought every step of the way.

Perrin saved Rand. Without Rand, Rand cannot win. Also, without Moiraine failure was almost certain - thus indicating that he could win without her, it was just much less likely. Thus Perrin has the greater achievement here.

Taim's rescue of Rand at the last minute is certainly consistent with the idea that Rand is the Lord of Chaos, despite the fact that it's obviously also a reference to chaos as a strategy. And the orders to leave Rand unharmed, as Sammael says, were part of Demandred's instructions (which came to Sammael through Graendal), which is also consistent with Rand being the Lord of Chaos (and letting him rule).

RJ explained why Taim came to Rand's rescue: "On the Asha'man finding Rand in Lord of Chaos, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: "Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B." [exact quote!].

 

That was not to explain why, but how Taim found him.

Paranoid SOB says nothing at all about how he found him. It does explain why he would go looking - an explanation that would be undermined by him simply acting under orders. Interesting that you chose to cut that quote off where you did.

 

 

Rand being the LoC adds nothing here. I fail to see how the quote you posted helps your point in any way.

That's because you don't want to see it, clearly.

So you don't have an explanation.

 

 

Regardless of when the plan started, Rand was not kidnapped until after it was decided to let him rule - there was time enough to stop the plan going ahead, if they wanted Rand to rule.

Much better to let him suffer a little bit first, don't you think?

Reaching. Not evidence to support you.

 

There is, quite simply, nothing to suggest that Rand is the Lord of Chaos.

That's BS. There's plenty to suggest it, including Brandon saying so, and the evidence you choose to ignore.

Brandon has never said so. He said no such thing. And as you have provided no evidence, I must conclude that you have none to provide.

 

Further, the uses of the phrase outside LoC are consistent with the theory that it is not a specific individual.

Only if you're daft enough to believe that it must be one or the other: an individual or a general strategy of chaos.

How very convenient for your theory. It means whatever you want it to mean. Also, you don't really rebut my point. They are consistent with that theory. We have no uses of let the Lord of Chaose rule that relate to letting Rand rule, and two which have nothing to do with him at all. While there is certainly evidence to suggest that leaving Rand in charge and not facing him directly was a part of their startegy during this period, that is a long way from suggesting that the Lord of Chaos is specifically Rand.

 

Given that he didn't say what he thought the obvious answer was, that's rather unhelpful.

It's clear he believes it is a person, and that the identity of the person should be obvious, and that is quite enough.

No, it is clear only that he believes the answer is obvious. It gives no indication of what he believes the obvious answer to be. You are reading into it, seeing what you want to see. If we look at what he said, divorced from your assumptions about what he meant, we see a useless answer. There is no indication he thinks it is a person, nor that he thinks it is the person you think it is.

 

What the heck were Loial and the Asha'man (Karldin?) doing while traveling around closing the Ways? They obviously failed if aknown Waygate, one that Loial himself used, is still open and an entire ARMY of Shadowspawn can use!

The Caemlyn Waygate was thought secure, per Verin's letter. She stated that the Waygate would need to be destryed. Bear in mind channelers can unspin wards and cut through closed Waygates. So what were they doing? Dealing with the Waygates Rand didn't do himself.

Who is the Lord of Chaos, been re-reading the book and perhaps just because I am skimming it/don't remember details of the book, but when the forsaken say let the lord of chaos rule, are they referring to the DO, or ?...

Let the Lord of Chaos rule doesn't refer to a specific person (or entity, in Shai'tan's case), so much as an instruction to spread chaos.

There are pretty convincing theories that the 'Lord of Chaos' does mean Rand as the king of fools. Making him unite the world when there was seemingly no reason to almost broke him with just the stress, so it was a pretty good plan and it frees up the shadow's forces to plan elsewhere.

The idea that Rand is the Lord of Chaos - and thus the Shadow's directive is to let Rand rule - is not consistent with any of the uses of the phrase in the series. In LoC we see the attempt to kidnap and control Rand...

 

The plan for the kidnapping was already in motion when Demandred went to Shayol Ghul in the LOC prologue; there were seventeen days in between the time he went there and the time he met with the other Forsaken, and in that time we had Gawyn's and Katerine's POVs, when the Aes Sedai were making a deal with the Shaido. Part of the reason we know Demandred was involved with the Black Tower at the time is this quote:

 

"I have a few questions of my own. I never thought you would keep your truce with al’Thor any longer than you must, but this...?"

 

The watcher’s eyebrows rose. A truce? A claim as risky as it was false, by all evidence.

 

"I didn’t arrange his kidnapping." Sammael gave her what he probably thought was a wry look; his scar made it more a snarl. "Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended, but Mesaana certainly. Perhaps you ought to reconsider what you think the Great Lord means about leaving al’Thor unharmed."

 

Taim's rescue of Rand at the last minute is certainly consistent with the idea that Rand is the Lord of Chaos, despite the fact that it's obviously also a reference to chaos as a strategy. And the orders to leave Rand unharmed, as Sammael says, were part of Demandred's instructions (which came to Sammael through Graendal), which is also consistent with Rand being the Lord of Chaos (and letting him rule).

RJ explained why Taim came to Rand's rescue: "On the Asha'man finding Rand in Lord of Chaos, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: "Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B." [exact quote!]. When finding out of the disappearance of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man." Rand being the LoC adds nothing here. I fail to see how the quote you posted helps your point in any way. Regardless of when the plan started, Rand was not kidnapped until after it was decided to let him rule - there was time enough to stop the plan going ahead, if they wanted Rand to rule. Rather, their actions removed him from power temporarily. There is, quite simply, nothing to suggest that Rand is the Lord of Chaos. Further, the uses of the phrase outside LoC are consistent with the theory that it is not a specific individual.

 

And Brandon found that surprising because the answer is really obvious. To be honest, I was surprised too; it's not something we debate at Theoryland.

Given that he didn't say what he thought the obvious answer was, that's rather unhelpful.

Ruthan Gudd, you could have said better "NE economic upswing" but I think there is an error in the storyline as NE should be increasing population, innovation, economy, but it isn't there.

The NE is the opposite of what it should be, populations shrinking, no innovation (people should be likely to innovate precisely because the AS stay to themselves (also realistically AS have been able to do little more than heal or fight trollocs in the NE)) shrinking economic interactions (eg nations disappearing/drying up, recession of Andor's borders, etc)

It's not an error in the storlyine, it has an explanation. They should have an increasing population, they don't due to Shai'tan's influence on the world.

 

Good explaination, just not one example of it... DO's invisible influence? did it even exist before book one, when the seals began to fail. It wasn't DFs, they are incompetent fools. Why would DO only go after middle earth, Aiel population grew during this time period.

Yes, Shai'tan's touch was felt long before book 1. However, mostly His touch has been subtle - locking the weather in perpetual summer, for example, was a change that would take some time to becoem apparent, but which would have catastrophic consequences. The population decline is even more subtle. It might take generations before its influence is fully realised. The Westlands are where the Dragon will be reborn, where the bulk of the fighting will be done. It makes sense to focus your efforts there rather than the Waste or Seanchan, hence why they both lack this problem.

It did not take Perrin the same amount of time to decide he had to lead. Mat and Rand had it figured out right after the Waste, Perrin was still struggling in the two rivers about being a temporary leader, or leading just so people wouldn't follow Lord Luc (which makes no sense at all either, I mean I understadn the guy was evil, but discount that and you come to a conclusion that he took command just to keep it from someone else, wth is he 5?)

It is entirely reasonable to take a position of responsibility or leadership in order to prevent someone less suitable taking that position. if anything, Perrin was acting as a leader before Mat, as Perrin was leading the TR - a position he never abandoned - during TSR, but Mat only took on a position of leadership in FoH, while trying to escape during the fighting against the Shaido. Plus, of course, one can hardly complain about Perrin being reluctant to accept his fate next to Mat "I am not bloody Lord" Cauthon. Hell, Rand was still fighting things up to VoG.

Who is the Lord of Chaos, been re-reading the book and perhaps just because I am skimming it/don't remember details of the book, but when the forsaken say let the lord of chaos rule, are they referring to the DO, or ?...

Let the Lord of Chaos rule doesn't refer to a specific person (or entity, in Shai'tan's case), so much as an instruction to spread chaos.

There are pretty convincing theories that the 'Lord of Chaos' does mean Rand as the king of fools. Making him unite the world when there was seemingly no reason to almost broke him with just the stress, so it was a pretty good plan and it frees up the shadow's forces to plan elsewhere.

The idea that Rand is the Lord of Chaos - and thus the Shadow's directive is to let Rand rule - is not consistent with any of the uses of the phrase in the series. In LoC we see the attempt to kidnap and control Rand, in KoD we see the phrase used by Semi (about her murder of the Seanchan Imperial family) and Taim (about the plan to allow the bonding of Asha'man by Reds). Thus the first is not letting Rand rule, the second and third have little to do with Rand. We also have evidence from Sammael and Graendal suggesting that they are under orders to increase chaos. The Feast of Fools interpretation has merit, but it doesn't refer to a single individual, certainly not Rand.

 

I wanted some clarifications on saidin channeling and detection.

We know male channelers can't sense each others' ability to channel, They can only sense if somebody is holding saidin and there is a sense of strain when the channeler is close to the personal limit in terms of holding.saidin. So a male channeler judges another male channeler's ability by the amount of saidin he uses in a specific weave and by the sense of strain.

However male channelers appear unable to mask their ability (ala Mesaana when she's chatting to Alviarin or Graendal at the Cleansing) when they're holding saidin or channeling? Is this true? I'm guessing it is because Halima was genuinely scared of Logain detecting her and also she was detected at the Cleansing by Eben.If she could mask this would not have happened.

We have no information. Getting rid of Logain allows halima to act with a degree of impunity she otherwise couldn't, but that doesn't mean she was unable to conceal her strength. Also, the Chosen prefer different methods - some act more openly than others, so one hiding their strength doesn't indicate another couldn't.

 

Also can male channelers "throttle back" like Mesaana did when she was pretending to be Danelle? That is, Mesaana when pretending to be Danelle was displaying only saidar channeling ability to the extent that Danelle had. Can a strong male channeler fake the sense of strain when he is holding saidin to make others think he's weaker than he actually is?

Also can a male channeler deliberately "fail" the resonance test Taim used?

Wondering if there are clear answers to the above anywhere?

Again, all of these are unkowns. No clear answers either way.