It involves Semi scoring a hit for reasons other than Semi's skills. Mental or otherwise.

 

I'm looking for SOME reason to like Semirhage. She's giving me nothing to work with here. It's frustrating as all hell

She had a plan. That plan was disrupted by events outside her control (Cadsuane using a ter'angreal of a kind unknown in the AoL to destroy both her disguise and any other weaves she might have had prepared). She reacted quickly, using a fireball to disable Rand. Must you persist with your absurd criticisms?

Question. I haven't gotten this far in the series. And I'd rather have a response that isn't "Read and find out" I'm not in the mood.

 

When Semirhage is outed and blows up Rand's hand. Why didn't rand just slice Semi's weave with Saidin? and was Semi aiming for Min on purpose because she knew of Rand's love for her or was it just panic?

Rand was unable to grasp the Source in time as both he and LTT went for it. As Min was already behind Rand, Semi was aiming for Rand, not Min.

Then how come Alanna can't control Rand but Logain can completely control the women he's bonded to him?

Alanna only tried, as far as we know, when he was holding saidin - men holding the Source cannot be Compelled (that's not speculation, it's outright stated - LoC, the chapter called Threads Woven of Shadow, Sammael's POV). Women do not enjoy the same protection, holding saidar or otherwise. Whether his being ta'veren, his being the Dragon or his having great strength of will would have made him resistant without saidin is unknown, but that alone makes him immune.

It was clearly stated that the weave to see through the eyes of the animal was a TP weave.  Read the Towers of Midnight Prologue.  I don't have it handy for a quote.

It was also clearly stated in mb's post: "Graendal eavesdropped through a dove by the True Power." He was asking why they didn't notice the dove, not why they didn't notice the weave.

 

A question about something else::

Before Rand balefired Natrin's Barrow, Graendal eavesdropped through a dove by the True Power.  How come neither Rand or Nynaeve seemed to not perceive Graendal's dove?

Probably because it was just a dove - unlike ravens (which are known shadoweyes), there's no particular reason to take note of a dove.

Got to Dumai's Wells in my relisten.

 

Two questions on that fight:

 

- How did Taim know where to be?

He Travelled along the road until he found the AS, then went back for help. He was suspicious after Rand disappeared. (And that's the answer RJ gave.)

 

the male adam, Semirhage called it the Domination Band; I recall it being called the sad bracelets.  Not sure where originally it was called that later term.

Which name did Robert Jordan prefer for it?

The term sad bracelets was an unofficial designation given by fans, based on Nynaeve' impression of sadness when she first found them. The term male a'dam is used in the books prior to TGS. Domination Band can be considered the "correct" name for it, though whether that name originated from the notes or Brandon is unknown. Given tht the only name RJ used for them was "male a'dam", that can be considered his preferred term.

 

In Crossroads of Twilight, when Alvairin is marked by Shadar Haran... does that mean she is a Chosen now? Or is it because she wasn't marked in Shayul Ghul, the mark is more of a way for Shadow Minions to know she is under the direct supervision and protection of Shadar Haran?

RJ answered that in a Question of the Week: "The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it."

I'm using this as one example off what I think is Perrin's major flaw

The "I can't talk to any other major character ever" issue. He thinks he is alone in his struggles, no one can help him, he has to fix everything himself. One conversation with another main char and the result could have been different. I mean he knows the freaking DR and he thinks HE has issues????? Get real!!

To be fair, this isn't just Perrin's problem - all of them have communication issues.

He never asks any of the other Major players for help. Saved Faile without any (major char) help.

And he had gateways at the time. But rather than spend 50+ days asking for external help he just hands over Manetheren to the Seanchan. Smooth.

Given that he wasn't planning to raise Manetheren anyway, a promise to not raise Manetheren isn't really giving anything away.

Thanks Yoniy0 - that's something I've been trying to remember is whether it was 13 channelers or 13 AS, I think I may now have to side with Mr Ares(? can't remember who I was debating with about the difference between strength levels)

Siding with Mr Ares is always a good idea.

Every major character, including Rand, is disliked by someone - with some having very vocal hatedoms. The more minor characters often do less to divide opinion (although the more minor they are, the greater the chance it won't stir any emotion at all). Egwene has much more opportunity to irritate or endear the reader then, say, Elder Haman, and so is more likely to generate strong feelings. I don't recall seeing any Elder Haman hate so far, but doubtless someone will soon be along to say how much they hate him (and Dobraine and Darlin as well).

At the Cleansing scene the female Forsaken taunt Demandred with the fact that if the taint is removed from the Source, he won't need the Dark Ones protection to channel safely any more and that therefore the DO won't (or may not) trust male channelers as much anymore.

 

Does this imply that as the female channelers don't need his protection that they're curently trusted less, or that males are inherantly less trust worthy. Additionally the taint occurred as a couterstrike to the sealing, so wouldn't have affected them during the War of Power. Does this mean they've been trusted more since released as a result of the taint and protection? Or was it aimed at Demandred specifically as a way to hint that he personally wasn't going to be trusted?

As it is, Shai'tan has a tighter leash on the men than he does the women - they men need Him to remain sane. If you task the women with stopping the Cleansing, then succeed or fail, they don't really gain. If the men fail, then they no longer need Shai'tan - while it doesn't automatically prove they will turn against Him, it can be used to poison Him against them by pointing out that they might not have tried as hard as they could, in order to ensure a result that benefits them. Female failure can be seen as incompetence, but male failure is easier to portray as possible treachery.

Wait a minute. If the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and Ishamael is ok with this, and Ishy is in charge... then why doesn't Shai'Tan ask Ishy to go around Balefiring everything until the pattern unravels? I'm pretty sure doing that would destroy the seals on your prison, unless they can withstand reality unraveling.

Shai'tan and Ishamael want the Pattern destroyed, but the other Chosen don't. To act too overtly towards the goal of complete destruction rune the risk of the other Chosen finding out, and acting against Ishamael - you lose a powerful tool, and potentially the use of the others as well (especially if they think that the promised immortality isn't coming, or they die trying to stop Ishy). There's also no guarantee of success - it took vast quantities of it being used in the AoL to drive the Pattern to the brink. Ishy could probably be used better elsewhere. So, it's a high risk strategy, but the gains are no greater than other, surer methods of getting what you want.

Also... does Team Shadow actually put up a decent fight at the end of this book? :(

In the words of Robert Jordan, Read And Find Out.

 

It's not just the suicidal rage. Very often that's what does it, but they usually die even without that. It doesn't really go into details of how it works; they might just lose the will to live or something.

 

Yes, Myrelle has saved warders before, and saves Lan, but it is stated that that's really, really rare. Most warders die when the Aes Sedi they're bonded to dies, even if they don't die in a suicidal rage.

I think you're mistaken. Their rage is what losing the will to live means. They go look for trouble, and eventually even a Warder can't survive the risk they take to avenge their AS.

At one point, Cadsune specifically stated that if Alanna died, that Rand would die either then or soon afterwards. I don't imagine that he would go into a sucidal rage just because someone he doesn't like all that much died; there is clearly more to it then that.

Whether or not he likes her has nothing to do with it. The death rage is an effect of the bond breaking.

 

At one point, Cadsune specifically stated that if Alanna died, that Rand would die either then or soon afterwards. I don't imagine that he would go into a sucidal rage just because someone he doesn't like all that much died; there is clearly more to it then that.

No, I really don't think there is. It's not a malady, is a desire for death that can only result in the Warder throwing his life away. Nothing we've ever seen suggest another type of malady that would kill the Warder.

Sometimes the Warders drop dead from the shock. Other than that, you're right - we don't know of anything else that would kill the Warder, they just go into a death rage.

Are there really only three Ta'avren? Really? Rand is the biggest ta'avren in at least an age, but arguably in this entire turning of the wheel. Mat and Perrin are Hawking level ta'avren, who was the benchmark for the age as far as ta'avren-ness is concerned. But it is implied that there have been other ta'avren in recorded history, Heroes of the Horn incarnations, or maybe just regular people doing fantastic things. Ta'avren are described as people the pattern has set on a specifc path and control's their destiny, and through this machinations, changes are affected throughout the pattern, or even just that area, and even if just for a short time. So, there are lesser ta'avren in history.

 

Has it been ruled out that none of the other main characters (Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, Moir, Thom, etc.) are ta'avren? The channelers, at least, show very strong ta'avren properties (Egwene becomes Amerlyn a bare handful of years afting learning to channel, Nyn and Elayne are the bane of the BA and forsaken, even Thom has killed a king and sent a nation into war). It seems to me that the big three cast vast shadows that hide the ta'avren-ness of the others. The one thing is that Suian (and I think Nichola, but not sure. One of the novices or accepted in Salidar anyway) can "see" ta'avren. They see a glowing halo around the individual. So, it would have been remarked if Egwene, Nyn or Elayne had this glow. They don't, so either they are not or the Talent of seeing Ta'avren is imperfect. Destiny does seem to be guiding these other players, though, even when the big three are not in the immediate vicinity (though arguably just existing within the pattern is enough to affect changes anywhere in the world, a la Shara).

 

It would just make sense that these other characters are lesser ta'avren. There have even been moments where a person might comment about "believing he/she might be ta'avren, they've been so lucky/fortunate, etc."

 

Maybe the big three are just big red herrings. "Hey, Shadow! Look at these really shiny ta'avren! Don't you just want to send legions of trollocs, fades, darkfriends, gholum, soulless, forsaken, etc. at them? Aren't they just SOOOO dangerous and epic! Ooh, I do hope that you don't kill them!". Meanwhile a dozen or so lesser ta'avren are waltzing along the pattern, kicking ass, taking names, and righting wrongs.

In addition to what Suttree said, bear in mind that Siuan, Nicola and Logain can all see ta'veren, and none of them have commented on anyone besides Rand, Mat and Perrin, Loial identified the boys as ta'veren by their stories, and no-one has done the same for anyone else (even the readers - we should have seen enough signs, but there's no-one who can't be ruled out for other reasons), and Ishamael and Lanfear can both track ta'veren (and the others are aware of the method - Graendal thinks that it wasn't as easy as Moridin made out), but haven't come across any other ta'veren. Essentially, the only other people who could be ta'veren are minor characters who have never met Siuan, Logain or Nicola, who the text gives no indication of being ta'veren, and whose effects on the Pattern are so minimal that the Chosen can't notice them. Or, to put it another way, no. There are no other ta'veren.

I have a question. Can anyone tell me what the references to fighting in the borderlands, particularly mention in Shinar was all about? I've heard it mentioned a few times post TGH in rereads about trouble in Shinar starting and mentions of lords riding against others, but it wasn't in reference to Taim and his stirring up the Saldeans. I've always meant to ask but keep forgetting. The only thing I can think of was maybe men didn't want to believe the Dragon had been reborn, but that seems just a little bit off. I never encountered an obvious reason for it.

Week 5 Question: Will Hurin the Sniffer return in any of the remaining books? Please? We miss him. Could you share some insight as to why you decided not to use him after The Great Hunt?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He'll turn up again. He hasn't reappeared earlier because the part he had to play was a sidelight to the main story. You should be able to glean some of what he was doing, what effect he and the news he brought was having, from the news that came out of the Borderlands in the books following The Dragon Reborn,though.

So it probably had something to do with Hurin spreading word of the Dragon Reborn. That's news that has seldom been greeted with unalloyed joy. Inspiring some Borderlanders to fight? Quite possible.

That is possible, though I never thought the borderlanders would stoop so low as to fight among themselves when they had the stalwart duty to defend the lands against the blight. If news came the DR had come, I'd be making swords and storing provisions and strengthening my defenses, not getting up to petty squabbling and even fighting others of my kind. Then there is the difference between knowing someday it would come, and actually having it happen on my watch.

Well, we see the usual pattern of the Dragon's announcement in other lands - some flock to his banner, some troublemakers use it as an excuse to go around killing people under the name Dragonsworn, and someone has to deal with the Dragonsworn. The Borderlands aren't short of people who are selfish, short sighted, and just plain nasty - it's just human nature. You tell the people that the Dragon is reborn, and some people see it as an excuse to make trouble. And remember, we've seen Darkfriends and Masema (who went crazy) so we know that the Borderlanders aren't just a bunch of people who nobly fight the good fight against the Shadow. We know there are some bad eggs, some people who make bad choices, some who are less than heroic. It is not at all unlikely that news of the Dragons rebirth stirred up trouble there.

I have a question. Can anyone tell me what the references to fighting in the borderlands, particularly mention in Shinar was all about? I've heard it mentioned a few times post TGH in rereads about trouble in Shinar starting and mentions of lords riding against others, but it wasn't in reference to Taim and his stirring up the Saldeans. I've always meant to ask but keep forgetting. The only thing I can think of was maybe men didn't want to believe the Dragon had been reborn, but that seems just a little bit off. I never encountered an obvious reason for it.

Week 5 Question: Will Hurin the Sniffer return in any of the remaining books? Please? We miss him. Could you share some insight as to why you decided not to use him after The Great Hunt?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He'll turn up again. He hasn't reappeared earlier because the part he had to play was a sidelight to the main story. You should be able to glean some of what he was doing, what effect he and the news he brought was having, from the news that came out of the Borderlands in the books following The Dragon Reborn,though.

So it probably had something to do with Hurin spreading word of the Dragon Reborn. That's news that has seldom been greeted with unalloyed joy. Inspiring some Borderlanders to fight? Quite possible.

They are only immune to it while holding saidin. As for controlling him, Moir said that Lan was like a lion held by a thread. You get a guy with a very strong personality as warder you are going to have to work hard to keep him in line, and if you are AS you are used to doing what you are told.

 

Has this been confirmed? Can anyone post evidence for this? As far as I can tell, this was a theory to explain why the Warder Obedience didn't work on Rand.

Yes. Sammael refers to men being immune to compulsion in LOC 6.

Ah! You're right about that. I'm just rereading for the first time in a long time. Sorry.

It's cool. I really may have missed a moment where LTT took over his body. The only thing I can think of that was close was when Rand made a comment about if he gave in now, he knew that LTT would be in control and he would be a voice in his head.

 

But other than that, all LTT taking over was channeling which technically is a mental thing only.

How about the time in FoH (chapter 3) where Rand failed to respond o his own name, but did respond to Lews Therin?

 

I have a simple Question, why does everyone hate Egwene? I understand peoples dislike of Elayne, but not Egwene?

Lol, that's not as easy a question as it seems, countless of topics have started or digressed in Egwene hate/love discussion wich all are shut down by admins for mud slinging.

Haha, Ok then. Can someone explain in brief why she is hated? and maybe a bit about why she is loved?

Egwene is hated for a variety of reasons. A common one is that she is often perceived as a Mary Sue. She becomes an expert politician in a very short space of time, when she is in the WT, an AS asks her for advice on dealing with Warders - in other words, she wins because she gets very good in a short space of time, and because everyone around her is dumbed down in order for her to win. Her opposition to Rand during their meeting is often felt to be unwarranted - some people feel that she is stupid in opposing the Dragon with no good reason, and she should listen to his explanation for why he wants to break the seals. She's accused of lacking a distinct personality, because she merely adapts her identity to whatever situation she's in - around the Aiel she's the perfect Aiel, around the AS she's the perfect AS, and so on. I'm sure if you check the many Egwene hate threads, you can find people explaining their own reasons at greater length.

5 Bloofknives were sent to the tower right? Bryne killed 1, Gawyn killed 3...

 

So where's the last?

From Encyclopaedia-WOT: Hours after the battle Gawyn sits exhausted in Egwene�s quarters when she returns. The blood stains are being cleaned. A fourth assassin was killed taking two Tower Guards and a Warder with her. TOM 42. All five are accounted for.

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

Ba'alzamon was believed to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan, that doesn't mean the belief is correct.

 

It was in the glossary as another name for the Dark One. And whether or not it was originally intended to be a name for the Dark One, there is no reason to believe that the Dark One does not know that everyone thinks of him as Ba'alzamon.

 

Also, in context while Rand might believe he was issuing a challenge to Shai'tan, he wasn't. He was challenging Ishamael, who he knew as Ba'alzamon.

 

Who he also believed to be the Dark One.

Why is his belief relevant? He wasn't challenging Shai'tan, he was challenging Ishamael.

 

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

You do the same thing all the time. You said it, with no evidence. You provided an illogical opinion and expected it to settle things.

 

No, I provided an argument. There's a big difference between making an argument and just stating your opinion, as you did above.

No, you stated an opinion. That makes it exactly the same.

 

i got a question for you. Do you think that jaerom is alraedy reborn and that he is Gawyn Trakand. Cause there have been parralels throug the series about him and galad possibly being jaerom. I think he's gawyn because his only defeat ever came by mat 's staff and was really a complete defeat. There are also other clues that lead me to this conclusion. thanks for answering me.

 

Lan is Randland's best blademaster. If any of the characters is Jaerom, then it would be Lan. I believe that Brandon said that Gawyn has been extremely lucky in his sword fights against better swordsmen, most notably Hammar and the Seanchan bloodknives. Gawyn is a good swordsman; but he isn't the best. My opinion is that Rand would have owned him in a fight; and Galad was using Gawyn as his whipping boy in practice; so Galad is better.

 

Not to mention both authors have stated Galad is better, the characters in text state Galad is better and the results against common opponents state Galad is better.

 

I always thought it was Galad *WAS* better, but Gawyn is assumed to be better now.

 

Reading the underlining theme, I got that Gawyn always let Galad be better, because subconsciously he was suppressing himself because Galad saved his like twice as a child and as a younger brother he was supposed to look up to him, but once Gawyn left to join the Whitecloaks, Gawyn could come into his own. Have we seen Galad battle anyone besides the one Whitecloak? (Not counting the pre-boat battle since those were ruffians). Gawyn has been kicking ass and taking names against notable people, even in sparring.

The problem is, we have precious little to compare them directly of late. The last time we could directly compare, Galad was better. According to Word of God, that remains true.

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

Ba'alzamon was believed to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan, that doesn't mean the belief is correct. Also, in context while Rand might believe he was issuing a challenge to Shai'tan, he wasn't. He was challenging Ishamael, who he knew as Ba'alzamon.

 

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

You do the same thing all the time. You said it, with no evidence. You provided an illogical opinion and expected it to settle things.

 

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

From my understanding, Maradon was the only time that was too close; otherwise I think Rand would have added "again" somewhere within the sentence.

 

I don't see why he should have, or how he could have known it was too close unless he had some experience with that sort of thing.

A big stretch. At Maradon, Rand is obviously capable of inferring that he came too close to a direct confrontation. That doesn't mean that he has to rely on prior experience, still less that that experience was Tarwin's Gap. It could as easily be something remembered from LTT. Why wouldn't he be able to work it out purely from what happened at Maradon? What evidence suggests he came too close at TG? Or that Rand knows he came too close? Rand was far more ignorant then than he is now. I see no reason to believe that Rand would conclude TG was too close to a confrontation, and use that as the basis of working out what happened at Maradon. More likely, something about Maradon itself told him. Now, I'm sure you can find some irrelevant quote, or once again claim that the only reason I don't see it is because I don't want to rather than laying out your reasoning, but frankly I wouldn't bother if I were you. If you have actual evidence, feel free to provide. Otherwise, I'm not interested in what you have to say.

 

I take the Dark One could speak only at Shayol Ghul; they were not there.

And the Creator, by RJ's own words, is completely removed from the world and therefore cannot speak at all. Easier to assume we don't know everything about where the Dark One can speak.

RJ didn't describe the Creator as unable to take part - unwilling, perhaps, but that's not the same thing. "

And also we have the question of whether saying you will take no part constitutes taking part.

Thank you. In the EotW scene it sounds like Moir is holding with Air (as Shortkut says). We are not really sure Aginor is using the TP even if he is levitating. In that case it sounds like an early bookism.

 

I had forgotten about Ishy floating in TDR. I must re-read that scene. Not sure how to reconcile that.

 

You're welcome.

 

everbody: in the books, the characters do say, one can't fly because it is impossible to pick onesself up by their own boot straps. The second half of this statement is true, but the first half is not. to fly one does not pick themselves up, but push down on the air around them, airplane wings are large enough to push down on a sufficient amount of air (for those who understand lift better, know it is about pressure) but it is even easier to see by a helicopter, to hover, one must shove downward a mass of air equal to the flight vehicle.

 

But the boot strap argument makes 0 sense in a world where that same magic can be used by 1 man to lift two women off the ground from feet away with ease, one man can freeze a dozen people in place with that magic, air.

That doesn't really follow. A man can lift a woman off the ground. If strong enough, he could lift two. If he had ridiculously long arms, he could do it from a few feet away. Doesn't mean he can levitate. Freezing people in place also does not indicate levitation should be possible.

Who says the air has to be anchored anywhere? If you make a platform of air in mid-air, will it fall? When Suian made that knife of air in front of her, it didn't blow away with the breath in the room.

The flows of Air were still connected to Siuan. If you made a platform in mid-air with nothing to support it, then it would fall, as things that aren't help up by anything have a habit of doing. If you were supporting it, then standing on it would be akin to picking yourself up by your bootstraps. If you tied the flows off, and connected them to something, they would remain in place.

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan. No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

 

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan?

To expound on Terez's answer, Rand was fighting the Shadowspawn, but not their sender. He wished for a way to finish things, and one was comfortably provided (whether or not you believe the VOICE had anything to do with Rand suddenly knowing how to Skim and where to, he wasn't going to do so until he was told that the fight shouldn't be fought where he was). As to why the DO might wish Rand to directly confront Ishamael, I'd refer you to the dude's record; It likes to saw conflict, as a way to both bring people to its cause and to measure its servants.

If Rand wasn't to go elsewhere, then he would just stay where he was. Neither Ishamael nor Shai'tan was coming to him. If Rand wanted this to end, he had to track down Ishamael himself. So why did Shai'tan feel the need to show up and say that He would not take part? Surely He would be telling Ishy that, if He was to tell anyone?

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

How can a person lift them self with the TP? Please explain?

 

It's been done in the books, not quite sure how. I'm assuming you lift yourself with flows of air, hence my issue with why it would be impossible to do it with the OP.

 

But then again we're debating the rules of physics and applying them and the issues right? So, in both cases we have an unknown power source, that's fine, assuming them operate on the same principals, it should be possible to do it with the OP and TP, unless there's an underlying issue. Why the characters say it's not possible to lift yourself with the OP, they've never really explained it. I'm quite curious myself as it makes no sense.

 

You can lift yourself with the OP, the TP and your own arms. The principle remains the same in all cases. What is holding you up? If the answer is nothing, then you'll either come crashing down to the ground, or simply not leave it in the first place. Also, skyhooks was facetiousness, not a serious comment.

Air&Magic.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. It is possible with the TP. They claim it's not possible with the OP. We're debating physics and the application of it in this world still correct?

You cannot stand in mid air. You can hold yourself off the ground, but there needs to be something holding you off the ground. That something could be a flow of the OP, a flow of the TP, or it could be a rope. You cannot hold yourself unsupported in mid air with the OP in the same way you cannot pick yourself up by your bootstraps. You cannot hold yourself with the TP in the exact same way. Gravity does not stop working. You could push off the ground with a flow of Air (OP or TP), and thus be connected to the ground by Air. Or use Air to tie yourself to something, such as a tree branch. But unless there is something holding you up, gravity will draw you down. Don't think of the OP (or the TP) as magic, as in this instance that won't help. If you think of it as a tool, or maybe even an extension of your own body, that might help. If the answer to what is holding you up is magic, you will fall. You can make a bridge and use that to hold you off the ground, but bridges need to be connected to something. You can dangle, from your arms or a rope, but you aren't flying. Making bridges or ropes of Air, using the OP as another arm, these things are possible, in the same ways and for the same reasons as these things work without the OP, or the TP. The principle is the same throughout. It is not possible to use either OP or TP to magically float, to pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It is possible to lift yourself off the ground with both in the same way as you could without the use of either. When they say it's impossible, I don't think you really understand what they are claiming is impossible.

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

You can't lift yourself with the OP for the exact same reason you can't lift yourself without. An absence of skyhooks. Attempting to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is as impossible with the OP as it is without. You can suspend yourself off the ground with the OP - we've seen bridges made of it. But gravity doesn't stop working.

 

But you can lift yourself with the TP.Also you can lift others, and if Skyhooks are needed, in theory you should be able to anchor the weave of air to the ground correct? I mean, what are you anchoring it to when you lift others up? It's not as if you directly absorb the weight like a lever or anything.

You can lift yourself with the OP, the TP and your own arms. The principle remains the same in all cases. What is holding you up? If the answer is nothing, then you'll either come crashing down to the ground, or simply not leave it in the first place. Also, skyhooks was facetiousness, not a serious comment.

 

I think that if we go back; we'll find that most farming communities had a majority of households that had multiple children. In any case, taking the discussion down that route will have me running around in circles. And I don't think I can take notice of household statistics in my current reread! The facts are there: Randland population has been in decline since the Breaking.

 

I don't think the bolded is entirely accurate, at least not in the way I think you mean it. The Breaking, the Trolloc Wars, and the War of the Hundred Years/Seanchan conquest/Shara invasion all took many lives of those living. But the unnatural downward pressure on population growth seems to have only started within the last millenia of the story, and perhaps even the last few centuries, as the DO's ability to touch the world has increased.

 

Not my quote. I think someone quoted RJ saying something similar earlier in the thread. I don't remember who it was .... Mr. Ares or Luckers, maybe. And so, I've taken that RJ quote as fact. If he says the population has been in decline; then who am I to argue that it hasn't been?!

The quote provided earlier (from Suttree) said this: "After Hawkwing's death, however, the population began a gradual decrease that the chaos of the War of the Hundred Years alone does not account for. Toward the end of the war rulers were claiming lands they lacked the manpower to hold. This decline has continued until the present, and there are now vast tracts of unpopulated land unclaimed by any nation, as well as areas that, though claimed in theory, are in practice autonomous and beyond the scope of their "official" ruler to defend or control.

I'd say that is a highly singular view on what constitutes taking part. (How different school sports days would have been if the mere declaration that I wouldn't take part was enough to constitute my taking part.) If the voice hadn't spoken, Rand would have acted. He wasn't inclined to sit around waiting for divine intervention before, I don't see why he would be now.

 

Not really. Imagine if you said you wouldn't take part in a battle, which happened to be a surprise battle. But you informed the foes that the battle was coming. wouldn't that be taking part? I would count it as so. Rand was reaching out, confused, worried, and something spoke to him and informed him that he HAD to act. How is that not taking part? We don't know if Rand would have acted on his own. (And we'll never know), but think of other beings in different stories who only create then watch. Once they speak to their creations, they're considered no longer just watching. (Comic book Watcher is a great example)

If your foes were already in the middle of the battle, which Rand was, then saying "guys, I'm not going to help you, you have to win this fight by yourselves" does not constitute taking part. And Rand does not typically stand around waiting for someone to rescue him. He had acted to that point, why would you think he would stop doing so? And Terez's quote is, of course, not incompatible with the voice being the Creator.

 

(b) Regarding the DO and not taking part, Ares, what ever makes you think we should take the VOICE at its word?

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?