like i said, i want quotes from the book Lurkers.  all the "evidence" you have pointed out in this saying that what i think is wrong is your assumption of what RJ wrote and is not backed by direct fact.  RJ stated over and over again about them being stilled.  he states this many times through wiseones, the AS themselves and Rand.  he's also suggested through other AS in Salidar that being "Burnt out" cannot be healed because there is nothing to heal. 

Why? We've had the POV of one one Black Rebel--Delana, and it was not her. We've seen no others interact, heard none of their thoughts. As for Cyndane, her thought progression never goes near to what happened to her when she was resurrected. We also know she was soulbound, and that is never thought about either.

maybe we don't see any other black sisters because Delana is the only one among the rebels, other wise Aran'gar would be using others besides Delana to cause decinsion and confusion among the rebels (like her mission given to Delana)  besides, for a black sister to heal lanfear they would have had to travel to SG.  meaning they would have had to visit it before or spent a month skimming the blight.  as far as we know, even those among the high council in the BA haven't been to SG.  only the forsaken and possibly Taim.

Your understanding of Travelling is flawed. You must know your start point, not your end point. And in all probability there are some BA sisters beyond Delana in Salidar.

 

also, i'm not a guy and my nick name is Red; i'd really perfer you to use that instead of other names such as Champ (typically a fond name for boys, of which i'm lacking a part to be ;) ) just as i show you the respect and call you Lurkers instead of sweety or honey.

 

Strictly speaking, his name is Luckers, so calling him Lurkers is hardly a huge sign of respect.

 

So, for the interest of this discussion, for all that these women being severed came as a result of someone elses direct action, and thus is termed 'stilling' they were in fact burned out. And please, next time read before posting. I have no problem with you disagreeing, but re-raising these things as if they are some sort of new evidence? That's just rude.

once again i'd like to state that being burnt out is self inflicted, being stilled is the result of someone else cutting you off fromt he source; and that being burnt out cannot be healed becauase there is nothing left in the person to heal. and as i also said, i'm not raising this as if it's new evidence, i'm just stating what i think is the right answer just as you are doing to me.  so by calling me rude for doing this, you are also calling yourself rude.

So you have no evidence to say that burning out can't be healed, and yet despite the point being addressed you carry on saying that it can be? This passes for politeness where you are from? Not addressing the points that are raised against your arguments and carrying on making the same points as if no one has dealt with them? Look at the descriptions. Stilling - sharp weave, cutting. Burning out - too much power, burning ability. What Rand did - crushing ability in fists of spirit, doesn't match previous descriptions of stilling, and the damage caused doesn't sound like the sharp cuts normally associated with stilling. Now, personally I don't see any evidence saying that burn out can't be Healed, and enough to support that it can be. If you have evidence, share it.

What? Thats frankly rediculous. The woman was severed, and needed to be healed. The only ones with that knowledge where the Black Ajah amongst the Rebels. A dream message would make for an easy summons, and the Rebels were already treating where women chose to travel as a private matter known for them alone, so travelling to Shayol Ghoul also becomes a simple matter.

you cannot travel to a place youhave never been, you have to skim the area until you find it and then memorize the place in order to travel to that exact spot.  no where has it said that the forsaken are dreamers, and just because they can enter Tel'aran'rhiod doesn't mean they can enter the space inbetween the dream world and the waking world without the use of an angrael.  RJ never says whether the forsaken use one or not.

You can Travel to places you haven't been, and we see people do it often. Avi going to Seanchan in FOH springs to mind. Plus the Shadow is entirely capable of sending messages to it's servants, dreams or no dreams (and they probably can use the dream method, but you'll need to ask Luckers for a quote on that).

 

You would compare this to a dead man coming back to life in a world were such things are impossible?

you misunderstand what i'm comparing.  i'm comparing what those two things would do to the plot of each book.  by JKR bringing Sirius back fromt he dead (from the veil) would serve nothing to the plot of the books and only complicate the story further.  as would having Lanfear healed instead of just laying it at the DO's doing.

We don't know what the limits of Shai'tan's power are, so we can't say for sure that He can Heal severing. We also know that He has no reason to weaken His servant, it is counterprductive, and the only thing we know of that can do that would be someone of the same sex Healing the severed person in question. As for the plot of the book, bear in mind that this taes place off screen. It isn't hugely important. But we know one answer to be possible (BA does the Healing) and we know the other to be suppored by preciselt nothing (what you say). So where does this unnecessary plot complication come in? Inventing new powers off screen which are only ever used once yet we never see them and there is nothing to support them existing, as opposed to using the existing powers and abilities in the book to do something we know to be possile. Which one overcomplicates the plot?

 

Of course you're wrong beyond that. There is nothing to prove being burned out cannot be healed--yes, we know it is a more complete process, with the person no longer being able to sense the source at all, but nothing in that says its impossible to heal, or that nothing at all is left--only that more is destroyed than in stilling. You don't really have any basis for such a comment. Especially not in the face of the realities of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgain.

and again i'd liek to state RJ says through many people that they are stilled and not burnt out.  what makes me believe that being burnt out cannot be healed is the fact that it is describe as "having the ability to channel being burned out of you" and that you can no longer even sense the source.  with being stilled, you can still sense the source and there is soemthing there to re-attach the person to the source.

Tell you what, why don't you provide a quote saying that it is impossible for people that have been burned out to be Healed.

Any flashes of light would probably count against them, given that anything for making light is on the prohibited list. Bear in mind that there was a lot of light on the Randland side of the doorway, which could easily translate into light on the other side, and said light would be unlikely to win them any friends with the Finns. Plus there was the doorway - a potentially valuable source of trade - being destroyed. The Eelfinn have no reason to be nice to Lanfear or Moiraine, do they?

Wasn't there a theory at one point that Lanfear had visited the Finns once before, wished for more strength, and those wishes were revoked since when she entered the doorway again? That explains why her strength was diminished when she was transmigrated by the Dark One. What disqualified that one?

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure which doorway it was that she was knocked into, it may not have been the wishes one.

It was the Eelfinn/"wishes" doorway (be wary about the use of the term wishes - they are more like merchants than genies). The theory you mention is disqualified on the basis of there being absolutely nothing in the books to indicate Lanfear ever having gone to the Finns (either set) before, nor any hint, however small, that they can change someones strength in the Power. Furthermore, the dorways prevent return visits, so any previous visit could not have come via the doorway, so far as we know (and we have no reason to suspect otherwise, etc. etc.).Good theories are supported by evidence.

 

another bit of beef i have with Lanfear being "healed".

 

you guys are saying she and Moiraine were burned out as they went through the door.  you guys object the possibillity that maybe the Finns have some ability to sever soemone from the Source (still them)

 

as we have been told, Stilling and being burnt out are different in a few ways.

 

Stillign is where someone cuts your abilit to channel, yet you can still feel the source.  i beleive it's been suggested that when a Sister "Burns herself out" the abilit to channel is seared out of her, and possibly she can no longer even feel the source.

 

the only reason why stilling can be heled, is because there is still a link that can be bridged; where as with burning out, it's burned away and no such link exists.

 

so by this logic, to say that Lanfear was burned out, and then healed is a conflict and hypocritical to say the least.  in essance, having your cake and eating it too.

Stop right there. That burning out can't be healed is not supported by anything in the books. There is no conflict. Also, as Luckers so frequently points out, in the cases of three Aes Sedai "stilled" by Rand at Dumai's Wells we do not see the usual razor sharp variation of the shielding weave to still them, and for all that they are referred to as stilled they could just as easily have been "burned out", given their abilities are crushed in fists of spirit. So this could be evidence in favour of the healing of burn out being possible. At the very least there is nothing to say it can't be and some small evidence, however debatable, that it can be. And why do you put healed in quotation marks? What other expalnation is there? What evidence is there to support the possibility of that something else? And if she was burned out/stilled/severed then how else could she be channeling now? "I got better" doesn't really cut it.

 

as for "dieing is a means of escape" isn't one that Moiriane would choose to pick. there is no certainty of being "reborn" back into the pattern like Lanfear and the other Forsaken for her. not to mention, she knows that by folowing certain events and doing certain things the possibility of being rescued is greatly increased; she knows that there is a chance that Mat will come to rescue her, and that by Min's veiwing, she has to be there to help Rand at TG. so no, dieing is a possibility that Moiriane wouldn't consider.

So you see my point. Just because Lanfear found a way to escape, doesn't mean Moiraine can escape as well. Also, while Lanfear has no certainty of being transmigrated, Moiraine has a certainty that she will not be. If she dies, that is the end of Moiraine Damodred, even if her soul is later reborn.

If I listen really carefully I'm sure I can hear, from the other side of the world, the sound of Luckers banging his head on the wall from sheer frustration. After all, how many times has the "it doesn't cut your strength by half" point been addressed? If Siuan had lost half her strength it is unlikely she would be strong enough to be Aes Sedai - and yet she is not even at the bottom of Aes Sedai strength rankings. Also, even if Siuan had lost half her strength, there is no telling that Lanfear would have. After all, it could be a fixed amount of strength lost - which would impair a weaker channeler more than a strong one.

 

i still don't see why you all keep stating she was healed.  the DO had her remade, and therefor could do whatever he wanted with her (which is what he did)

She was severed and now isn't. Healing is the only thing we know of that can stop someone severed being severed and make them unsevered. Also, the only thing we know of that can cause that drop in strength is severing followed by healing. And we don't know that Shai'tan can heal anything

 

theres no way Lafear escaped the Finns, otherwise Moiraine would have too.

Wouldn't that depend on how Lanfear escaped? Say she died. Would that mean Moiraine considers that a viable means of escape?

 

The DO is cruel, he made her weaker in the power than she was yet still strong enough to do the things he needs done.  after all, she was planning to go against him to rule the world with Rand since those access keys were found.  she says so herself.

What she says is immaterial if Shai'tan doesn't know she said it. And it would take more than just cruelty to do what he did to Cyndane. It would take a desire to shoot himself in the foot. Because that is exactly what he has done if what you suggest is correct. He has made his tool weaker and less effective, to no gain to Himself. WHY THE BLOODY HELL WOULD HE DO THAT???

 

she would have had neither time, nor ability to get to one of the black ajahs that knew how to heal her.  once she was reborn (and i doubt the DO would have reborn her w/out the power) she was placed under Moridins supervision.  it makes no sense to the plot and does nothing for it to have her healed by a Black Ajah member when its easy enough to lay everything as the DO's doing.

So Lanfear dies. Shai'tan brings her back, discovers she can't channel. Knowing of the recent discovery (thanks to spies) a message is sent to a Yellow BA sister in Salidar (depending on the method used this needn't take a long time), and she promptly Travels to SG (given the AS view of privacy no-one would know where she was going), and said sister proceeds to heal Cyndane and give her to Moridin, who proceeds to mindtrap her. Later, Moggy is released and we know her side of the story. What is the problem with this sequence of events? Why isn't there time enough? Why is the ability lacking? How would Shai'tan know she can't channel (and if He knows she can be healed, why would He care?)? What doesn't make sense?

 

and as i was saying about the Finn's world.  i never said they were using the Power, but that they might have soem other way of controlling ones ability to channel; or maybe the ability to channel in such a place is negated (like at a stedding) and because it is their realm, they might actually have a way to cut one off from the source completely if they feel threatened. which in the way Moiraine and Lanfear came busting into there, i'd feel threatened too.  i never once said or implicated that they could channel, nor do i think they can.  no one that we know of that can channel has went into the Elfinn's territory before and given us a POV, so its more than possible that, unlike the other Finn's, the ones that tried to kill matt have a barrier against channeling in their realm.

Why sould we assume that? We know ter'angreal are dangerous, and we see Moiraine and Lanfear disappear into one going into meltdown. We see Lan's bond snap, which so far as we know can only be caused by death or severing (and we know she isn't dead...). The only thing we know of that can cause a channeler to be weaker than they were in the manner seen in Cyndane is severing followed by healing. If they were severed they would be unable to escape by channeling. Put it all together and you have a pretty solid case for them, being severed. But no, we have to make half a hundred assumptions about new ways to sever bonds, the Eelfinn being able to produce a sterdeding like effect, Shai'tan being able to change someones strength in the power, whether or not showing a bit more cleavage would have kept Lanfear alive, and so on and so forth, with no reason to suspect even the existence of any of these things. Given the information we have about what is possible and what isn't the only viable explanation is that they were severed going through the doorway and Cyndane was healed by a woman.

Moraine knew what was going to happen, she states everyone will think she is dead. It seems to me she had plenty of time to make any arrangements she needed to both mask the bond and transfer it. Also what ever happened to Lanfear happened while she was with the finns, and yet, you keep denying them any responsibility for any of the changes. She herself says Aliva is as strong as she was BEFORE being held captive by the finns.  So the finns were there when all these changes were going on, but sat and watched while unknown powers tinkered around in their territory. I don't think so!

Lan's bond to Moiraine was snapped, not just dissolved (such a dissolution of the bond would leave Lan free of the negative consequences of having ones bond snapped, yet we know Lan experienced them. Therefore the bond was snapped.). So he was bonded at the time she went through the doorway. Also, what "unknown powers" were tinkering in their territory? She went through, was severed, died, was brought back, was Healed. The Healing left her weaker. Before she went to the Finns she was stronger than after. Which does not mean that the Finns did anything to her, it merely establishes an order to events: was stronger, was held, was weaker. She is stronger than she was while she was being held, because she was powerless then. She is weaker than before she was held, but this is natural when women are Healed from severing by women.

i don't think there was any stilling or healing involved with Cyndane when Lanfear was transferred to her body.  there wasn't enough time, and she didn't connect with anoe who could.  by the time Mohegidien met her, Cyndane could already channel, in fact "the Spider" commented on it in her first PoV with Cyndane.

 

i think it's just the DO playing at his game again. like putting a male forsaken in Aran'gars body.  a cruel joke for failing him.  he knew that Lanfear diseiered power, so as punishment for both failing him and trying to turn traitor he took away most of her power.  leavign just strong enough to make it itht he forsaken, but just so.  i think Mohgedien said soemthign to the effect that Cyndane was just as strong or a little stronger than her in the power.

 

 

and while i haven't read the last book yet (just finished CoT last night) i still don't see any evidence as to who was remade into Aran'gar or Morridin or Shadar Haron(possibly); not like Cyndane(Lanfear) and Osan'gar(Asmodean).  if there is a thread proving this, with quotes; then please post it for me.  I'm willing to agree that it might be Ishamael that was re-born into Morridin;' he's always talked abotu being the most powerful and scary forsaken, most likely to be name Nea'Blis (at least thats the feeling i got from the little the forsaken have actually talked about him)  the other Forsaken i just don't knwo their personalities enough to judge them as being reborn into those bodies.

Graendal notes that men that are stronger than her are a rarity, and women even more so. Yet she also notes Cyndane as being stronger than her. The evidence we have indicates that Cyndane is still right near the top in terms of strength. Furthermore, Shai'tan weakening Cyndane in that way is counterproductive - she is a tool, and her abilities are being impaired to no gain. Why would Shai'tan do that? Aran'gar results in both a cruel joke and a uniques case of a saidin channeling woman - useful for infiltration purposes, as noone is looking for one. Hence being used in such a manner.

 

As for the reborn Chosen, Aran'gar is womaniser Balthamel (hence it being a joke), Osan'gar is Aginor, Moridin is philosopher Ishamael, Cyndane is Lanfear (obviously), Asmo hasn't come back and almost certainly won't, and Shaidar Haran never was one of the others, it is just a Superfade.

1) Moiraine is Elayne's aunt (but not Rand's)

 

2) Galad is brother to BOTH Elayne and Rand, but Elayne and Rand are NOT directly related.

Half- brother and half-aunt.

 

4)Luc joins with Isam, who is Lan's cousin.

Thus, through Slayer (Luc+Isam), Lan is Rand's second cousin ;)

If you count Slayer as a single individual, with each aspect sharing the family of the other, then Lan is Slayer's cousin, Tigraine is Slayer's sister, and so is also Lan's cousin, and Rand is first cousin once removed to Lan. IF you count Slayer as a single entity and say eah side shares the otherts relatives. Big if.

 

Really, this isn't difficult. Nothing like as Byzantine as my family tree.

So Moiraine is Taringail's half-sister. Elayne, Gawyn and Galad are Taringail's children. Taringail isn't Rand's father. So how is Moiraine related to Rand again? She is half-aunt to Galad, Elayne and Gawyn, not Rand. Maj, I can forgive your slip because you were drunk. But how come no-one else got this? Did no-one else read this properly? Or am I just mad? leebarr, if you put this 1 and 1 together, I would be very surprised if you came out with 2. Rand and Moiraine aren't related.