Who is the Lord of Chaos, been re-reading the book and perhaps just because I am skimming it/don't remember details of the book, but when the forsaken say let the lord of chaos rule, are they referring to the DO, or ?...

Let the Lord of Chaos rule doesn't refer to a specific person (or entity, in Shai'tan's case), so much as an instruction to spread chaos.

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

In my experience, people who don't want responsibility are often ill suited to having it. It is only those that want responsibility that should be given it (and even then, a lot of them are unsuited).

As i said above first they must be qualified.

From my experience most of the people i have seen that really wanted a leadership role wanted it to make themselves look good, not to do the best job possible.

I have known many highly qualified people that really didnt want the job because they knew that to do it right it would be a pain in the butt.

There are those who want leadership who arent self serving but there are plenty out there that are.

Rarely you will see the guy who is reluctant to take the job be self serving while in the job.

In my experience, it's fairly common for those reluctant to do the job to be self serving while in it. People who think the job will be a pain in the butt find that it is a pain, and then compensate. They didn't want the hassle to begin with, so they might as well get something out of it. Or just do as little as possible to get by. The people you should put in positions of responsibility are those that are willing and able to do a good job. That either means people who want the job, or people who don't want it but are unusually selfless. In my experience, there is only so much people will be willing to put into a job they really don't want to do unless there is something in it for them.

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

In my experience, people who don't want responsibility are often ill suited to having it. It is only those that want responsibility that should be given it (and even then, a lot of them are unsuited).

Ruthan Gudd, you could have said better "NE economic upswing" but I think there is an error in the storyline as NE should be increasing population, innovation, economy, but it isn't there.

The NE is the opposite of what it should be, populations shrinking, no innovation (people should be likely to innovate precisely because the AS stay to themselves (also realistically AS have been able to do little more than heal or fight trollocs in the NE)) shrinking economic interactions (eg nations disappearing/drying up, recession of Andor's borders, etc)

It's not an error in the storlyine, it has an explanation. They should have an increasing population, they don't due to Shai'tan's influence on the world.

with healthy birth mortality, we should have seen a population growth, but instead it declined.

 

until very recently DO's influence on the world was very minimal. All the DF in the world could not change the simple fact that population was growing, they had neither the man-power nor the will. We don't see DO's dfriends killing babies to suppress the population, most murder seems to be very small scale.

The DO himself was unable to effect Randland directly, no, but the history of the place was inteligently directed by Ishamael since the Breaking. He gets 40 years to do whatever he wants completly unopposed and when he is running the Black Ajah directly he effectivaly has the weight of the most powerful organization in Randland to execute his will.

 

With Ishamael wispering in ears for the thousand years after the Breaking he prevented the Ten Nations from forming even closer aliances to withstand the Trolloc Wars. The Wars lasted 300+ years and the Nations actualy did fracture as well as deplete a very significant percetage of the population before the Trollocs were finaly defeated. It took centuries for the remaining nations to recover and when they Hawkwing's death brought about another century of warfare. European history shows us that no nation survives that easily. When you add in (or subtract?) the huge armies and accompanying logistical support (which must have numbered in several hundred thousands) to both the Seanchan contanent and Shara (on the advice of his trusted advisor Ishamael) when Hawkwings empire crumbled that was another huge dent to human population Randland.

 

Even in contemporary times the nations of Randland are only just recovering from an enormus war against the Aiel invasion. Lamman's Sin isnt called out as a plot by Ishamael, but it bears all the halmarks of it.

 

Left to itself there is no doubt that with the overall health the peoples of Randland enjoy and the abundant food available that they would be able to recover from the Breaking easily. It seems every thousand years they are about to almost reach the previous pinical of the previous civilization, but were prevented from advancing as a society because they were constantly reeling from disaster to disaster like a drunk stumbling from bar to bar. This was intended, planed, and executed by the Shadow for obvious reasons to weaken the will and the arms of the peoples and nations of Randland.

This is wrong. The people of Randland havehad ample opprtunity to increase their population. They don't. Since the end of the War of a Hundred Years, the population of the Westlands has been in decline. We see evidence of it everywhere - just look at the map, at all the empty space that is unoccupied, unclaimed. And we have no good explanation for that other than Shai'tan's direct influence. By rights, the population should be on the increase - their isn't sufficient war, famine, plague or other disaster to stop it. But it isn't. Further, this doesn't appear to be a problem in Seanchan (if they had the same problems as the Westlands, it's doubtful they could have carried out the Return).

Also, why was Mierin brought back into the story in the last book? she was dead and gone... we didn't need her, unless she has something to reveal to Rand after he saves her. She and Ishy were the one's who drilled the bore working together, so she may understand more about the form of DO's prison (prior to the bore) than anyone else, regardless of whether the prison included choras or not

Ishy was not involved with the drilling of the Bore. And did you miss that Lanfear was Cyndane, who has been around since book 8?

See the future? See the past? You would think that they wouldn't have cracked the Dark Ones Prison if that was the case.

 

I don't think that the world was more advanced then ours.

 

I think it actually was our world. Just in a future time when we have Aes Sedai. Go ahead and laugh. But the descriptions of some of the Sangreal etc. Elayne found a statue of a hippy from woodstock. There are others as well. Planes and cars. Flashlights = Glowsticks. Tazers = Shock Lances. It's all there.

Our Age is most likely the First Age, the Age Before the Age of Legends - there is evidence of that in the books, such as Thom's stories. The AoL is more advanced that out own Age. Shock lances are directed energy weapons, not just tasers, their vehicles are more environmentally friendly than our own, and they can create a giant research station that floats in the air. That last without the OP.

It seems considerably more likely to me that our age is somewhere between the 5th and 7th ages, as we see in Aviendha's vision in Rhuidean a future of guns, cannons, steam-driven vehicles etc. If we take such a level of technology as the 4th age, which in our calendar would probably have been the late 17th century onwards, then following the logical technological progression from there, it makes sense. That is very much a convergent technological development system.

I don't find the technological argument particularly compelling. If we look to our own history, we see how we got from a tech level similar to that in the series to where we are now. We know who invented steam engines, and where the first railways were. If we accept that this is our immediate past, as opposed to our incredibly ancient and long forgotten past, we are forced to wonder how the historical record got so badly mangled. On the other hand, if we accept that we came before the AoL, then all we need to accept is that more than one person is capable of inventing the steam engine, or gunpowder, or what have you. And given there are historical examples of more than one person inventing the same thing, it is quite plausible. Also, the stories Thom tells, for example, the evidence indicating we are the First Age, is rather more specific than just a general tendency to develop the same things.

 

Where are the populations of the disappeared nations? Why haven't the current nations grown significantly since the Trolloc wars? Even Two Rivers should be bursting (they were mostly left alone). The only countries that should not have grown should have been the borderlands.

The decline in population is most likely Shai'tan's influence.

See the future? See the past? You would think that they wouldn't have cracked the Dark Ones Prison if that was the case.

 

I don't think that the world was more advanced then ours.

 

I think it actually was our world. Just in a future time when we have Aes Sedai. Go ahead and laugh. But the descriptions of some of the Sangreal etc. Elayne found a statue of a hippy from woodstock. There are others as well. Planes and cars. Flashlights = Glowsticks. Tazers = Shock Lances. It's all there.

Our Age is most likely the First Age, the Age Before the Age of Legends - there is evidence of that in the books, such as Thom's stories. The AoL is more advanced that out own Age. Shock lances are directed energy weapons, not just tasers, their vehicles are more environmentally friendly than our own, and they can create a giant research station that floats in the air. That last without the OP.

He can't hold the throne without Faile. He will be King with Faile as Queen.

At least as long monarchy in WOT works as in real life.

Again, you say that as if it only works one way.

You may come with examples.

This is simply how it works.

William III and Mary II. Co-monarchs, the line of descent came through Mary, yet executive power rested with William, not Mary, and after her death he ruled alone. Not an exact match for Perrin and Faile's situation, but with enough similarities to say you are on rather shaky ground. Monarchy does not work just one way, and if RJ wanted to do things his own way he could.

The AS bond is pretty inadequate when it comes to men who can channel. As the men are typically stronger than women in the power even if the woman has bonded the man more often than not the woman will be at the mercy of the stronger man. The Asha'man bond is better in that respect as it has a compulsion element to it.

Men being stronger doesn't really matter. You can't compel a man holding saidin, weaker or stronger. Not holding saidin? Weaker or stronger in the Power doesn't matter a damn, you can compel them nonetheless. Further, the compulsive elements are one way - the man cannot compel through the bond unless he is the one holding it and the AS is the one bonded. An Asha'man bonded by an AS can compel her in the usual way, but not through the bond regardless of his strength. Also, the AS holding the bond can still kill him at any time by draining his strength (another one way process), so she is hardly at his mercy.

It doesn't work on men holding saidin - it works fine on men at other times, and women whether or not they hold saidar.

All of the AS who have been man-bonded have the twist though, right?

All the AS bonded by the Asha'man have the extra bit in their bonds.

It doesn't work on men holding saidin - it works fine on men at other times, and women whether or not they hold saidar.

The Ajah system never really made sense to me: Let's divide our unified tower into 7 divisions and then have a perminant choice about which one our recruits join at a point where they have been treated as children for the past 20 years. Oh and we will pretend our leader isn't part of any of them even though she totally was.

As I said, it's rooted in the formation of the WT. The WT was formed by several different AS groups coming together - the Ajahs were, at least initially, vestiges of that. (Which is why it makes no sense for the BT. It doesn't have those same roots.) The idea of the Amyrlin being of all Ajahs and none is something seen in our world - some modern Presidents are non-partisan (or are supposed to be, at least).

The WT's Ajah system is deeply flawed, so copying it wouldn't really be a good idea. The system also has its roots in the formation of the WT - given the differences in the formation of the BT, starting such a system makes no sense at all.

So, no-one then. The people who were with Faile didn't die because of a failure of leadership on Perrin's part, they died because the enemy attacked them. It wasn't within Perrin's power to stop that happening.

 

Was Faile riding around with minimal guards without knowing how close the AIel were? You have an army, he should have known of any forces large enough to threaten any members of his retinue. Her kidnapping was on his shoulders. A good leader shouldn't have let that happen. But then again, he wasn't being a good leader at that point.

In what way was he failing as a leader? Perrin is not a miracle worker. Faile was accompanied by more than forty guards, and "even Sulin agreed that they had moved on east, perhaps into Altara." So even the experienced Aiel were not anticipating anyone nearby, Faile was not surrounded by minimal guards (and had the power to take as many guards as she wanted).

 

 

I'm certain that any impartial court would sure as hell call that murder. Because it is, even if you feel it's justified for pragmatic reasons. You're right, it's not simple. The solutions available to him are murder them all and enslave them all. How big a difference do you think there is, morally, between mass murder and mass enslavement? I think either solution is bad enough that it comes across as hair splitting to say that killing them all in their sleep is more defensible.

 

If you believe so. It's like letting a suicide bomber live with his hand on the trigger. Don't forget, a lot of those channelers weren't sleep, they were alive and well when they were captured. Death before dishonor, slavery is not honorable.

Neither is murder.

 

 

Masema is a man of dubious sanity to begin with - kidnapping him and shoving him through a Gateway to come face to face with his god is not likely to be the best way of handling things. Further, assuming you don't just break his mind completely, you don't necessarily inherit his army. Masema is the only one controlling them. Take him away, you take away the control. Which means you need to keep them in line until Masema returns. What if Perrin returns, proclaims that he has delivered the Prophet unto the Lord Dragon - and then Masema's rabble attack him?

 

So he was so insane, that walking for months with him was a better idea? Masema is controlling them, with the threat of the Lord Dragon hanging over their heads. They are Dragonsworn, not Masemasworn. They would have fought for Rand, and Perrin by proxy.

They are called Dragonsworn, that doesn't mean they have any actual allegiance to Rand. Many Dragonsworn simply use the Dragon as an excuse for murder and mayhem. Kidnapping Masema (which Perrin considered, by the way), would likely see things turn into a bloodbath. There is no discernable gain from it that isn't far outweighed by the insane risk.

The problem I have is how self described complicated weaves are learnt by super girls and pretty much everyone else in one look.

As already stated, stronger channelers tend to learn quicker. Also, the Aiel force their students to learn in this way, and the Asha'man's training methods would encourage learning things really quickly as well. People in the AoL would be more likely to have a comprehensive education in the OP - the Third Agers have huge gaps in their knowledge. Learning a given weave doesn't take long. Perfecting the use of hundreds, possibly thousands of weaves, takes a bit longer. Not to mention, for a lot of AS in the AoL, using the OP wasn't a part of their day job. They could channel, so they learnt and that's it. Not everyone would be a master, they'd just learn the basics and then not worry about it.

Actually it is still murder in a war, which is why we have had soldiers on trial for murder for things they did during a not so far in the past war.

And since i have a wee bit of knowledge on this topic i can tell you that if a soldier captures an enemy, ties him up so he cannot move, then shoots him in the head it is murder.

Both options suck but if i were given the choice between the two i dont think i could bring myself to kill them.

And i say again, it was a bargining chip to get the Seanchens help. He needed their help so he did what he needed to to get it. Would they have helped without that bargin, maybe, but maybe not.

You dont have to like what he did but what he did saved lives on his side. That is good leadership. Leaders sometimes have to do distastfull things and i feel he chose the less of the 2 evils.

If you think being made Damane is worse than death then that is fine, your opinion. I disagree.

 

You're forgetting it's not as simple as tying up an enemy soldier and holding him in jail. In this case, channelling rules out simply holding them in jail. Most rules of convential warfare would go out of the door once the enemy could kill you with a mere glace if they were awake. I'm certain in that situaiton, if you drugged and killed an enemy, no court would call it murder.

I'm certain that any impartial court would sure as hell call that murder. Because it is, even if you feel it's justified for pragmatic reasons. You're right, it's not simple. The solutions available to him are murder them all and enslave them all. How big a difference do you think there is, morally, between mass murder and mass enslavement? I think either solution is bad enough that it comes across as hair splitting to say that killing them all in their sleep is more defensible.

 

 

 

Who died for Perrin's refusal to lead? Also, was Perrin really willing to sacrifice existence to get his wife back? A character's thoughts aren't necessarily completely reliable. He might say he's willing to make a deal with Shai'tan, but if push came ot shove is there really any evidence he would? During Faile's captivity, his neglect of his duties amounts to his desire to rescue his wife being placed as his first priority (delaying the return of the Prophet, but not abandoning his mission), and not doing enough for Aram. Other than that, he looks after his people fairly well. Also, who was to make the decisions in his place? He never stopped people leading, he just stepped into a vacuum. No-one was doing the damn job so he stepped up.

 

Countless unnamed characters. From the Two Rivers and beyond. Every bad decision he made caused deaths, everytime his refusal to step up and do what needed to be done until he had no choice. Heck, just to name a quick one, the people with Faile before she was captured. The deaths of all those men are on Perrin's head.

So, no-one then. The people who were with Faile didn't die because of a failure of leadership on Perrin's part, they died because the enemy attacked them. It wasn't within Perrin's power to stop that happening.

 

 

And then knock out his entire army and shove them through a Gateway as well. That's a practical solution, that is. Or maybe he should take the sensible option, and leave a now leaderless rabble behind. No way for that to go wrong. Perrin needs to worry about Masema and his army - kidnapping the leader and leaving the rest is an amazingly bad idea.

 

Nope just him. Send him thru, give him to Rand, come back, "BEHOLD! I HATH DELIVERED THE PROPHET UNTO HIS GOD, AND HE HATH DECREED THAT YOU WILL NOW FOLLOW ME, THE BEST FRIEND OF THE LORD DRAGON, GREATER THAN A MERE PROPHET, BOW BEFORE THE HANDS THAT HATH SLAPPED THE LORD DRAGON ONCE OR TWICE"

 

Ok maybe I'm being a little sarcastic, but it would work something like that. 10 minutes of time wasted, no kidnapping, no horses dead, good times had by all!

Masema is a man of dubious sanity to begin with - kidnapping him and shoving him through a Gateway to come face to face with his god is not likely to be the best way of handling things. Further, assuming you don't just break his mind completely, you don't necessarily inherit his army. Masema is the only one controlling them. Take him away, you take away the control. Which means you need to keep them in line until Masema returns. What if Perrin returns, proclaims that he has delivered the Prophet unto the Lord Dragon - and then Masema's rabble attack him?

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

 

Rand also learns really quickly but atleast he has an AOL master in his head giving out instructions.

 

The Supergirls learning magic quickly really doesn't bother me. And if you think about it, you seldom see criticism of them in regards to their abilities with the Power. Why? Because it's magic. By definition, unrealistic and requiring a suspension of disbelief.

 

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

Magic does require a suspension of belief but should it not be consistent? Mr Ares thinks that the stronger people learn quickly. Well in the AoL the average OP strength was very high and still the forsaken etc took hundreds of years to hone their crafts. I mean they keep referring to the 3rd age AS as half trained children if the training took merely months instead of years that statement makes no sense.

Of course people took years to hone their crafts. You can train someone to a basic level of competency in a fairly short space of time (how long depends on what you're doing), but it can take years of practice and hard work to master a craft. The Aiel force people to learn quickly - no point in mollycoddling them. The AS force them to take baby steps. The AoL was probably somewhere in between those two extremes. The AS back then probably had a much wider knowledge base than Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne do now. They've got good very fast, in a large part because they were in circumstances that forced them to get good very fast. But compared to the people of the AoL, despite their rapid improvements and innovations, they are probably lacking in a great deal of knowledge. Half-trained children is probably pretty accurate. So there is no inconsistency here.

Not wanting to lead is one thing, allowing others to die for your refusal to lead is cowardice. Willing to sacrifice not only your people, but all of existence to get your wife back? Please. That's a huge character flaw! He's not fit to lead. Who would want to follow him? They're all nuts! If he was willing to let someone else make the decisions, then ok. But he wasn't even willng to do that. He's a coward who's bullied by his wife. Does he do anything without her permission? Does he ever tell him no? I mean damn. I know this world is literally dominated by women, but geez, Perrin could grow a pair and stand up for his beliefs without pleasing his wife at least once!

Who died for Perrin's refusal to lead? Also, was Perrin really willing to sacrifice existence to get his wife back? A character's thoughts aren't necessarily completely reliable. He might say he's willing to make a deal with Shai'tan, but if push came ot shove is there really any evidence he would? During Faile's captivity, his neglect of his duties amounts to his desire to rescue his wife being placed as his first priority (delaying the return of the Prophet, but not abandoning his mission), and not doing enough for Aram. Other than that, he looks after his people fairly well. Also, who was to make the decisions in his place? He never stopped people leading, he just stepped into a vacuum. No-one was doing the damn job so he stepped up.

 

You know what i find funny? This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells. Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones? Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not. Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed. So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them. So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women. Which should he have chosen? I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either. And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

Murder vs Slavery? Or better yet, an Honorable Death vs Lifetime Enslavement and treated as less than an animal

 

It's not Murder in a war, it was them against him, that would have been an honorable death on the field of battle. Instead he enslaved the lot of them. That's HORRIBLE!

Given that the Wise Ones were drugged, unable to fight back, it's hardly an honourable death on the field of battle, so much as a massacre of the helpless. I suppose butchering people while they sleep is morally so much better than enslaving them.

 

@ the Gateway bit with the prophet, that always bothered me too. Knock him out, and push him thru a gateway. But again, Perrin as a character is really weak willed for a leader. He's not a leader, he's not even a leader who doesn't know he's one. He is not fit ot lead.

And then knock out his entire army and shove them through a Gateway as well. That's a practical solution, that is. Or maybe he should take the sensible option, and leave a now leaderless rabble behind. No way for that to go wrong. Perrin needs to worry about Masema and his army - kidnapping the leader and leaving the rest is an amazingly bad idea.

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

The AS intentionally train people slowly. Not forgetting, of course, that a number of corners were cut with their training, Egwene had forced training with the Seanchan (and Wise Ones - they have an expectation that if you are shown a weave once you should know it), while Nynaeve and Elayne learnt a lot from Moggy. Also, greater strength appears to make it easier to learn weaves.

2. Thanks for that. I always get that wrong haha. Who was the third one again?

You could be thinking of Welyn Kajima.

Moggy: The Spider while weakest of the female Forsaken (and likely weakest of the 13) she is still stronger than most channelers around. Also, she has the added bonus of still being alive. Mind-trapped like Cyndane, under Moridin's stern gaze, she could be forced to do some pretty crazy stuff, possibly suicidal, which are always the most dangerous attacks.

This old chestnut. Is there actually any evidence to support it now? If not, I wish people would stop trotting it out as fact.

 

Sandomere/Donalo:Two of the strongest of Logain's supporters. Not seen a lot, but mentioned as Logain's staunch allies, they were among the 3 "privileged" or trusted enough to accompany Logain on his mysterious mission.

Actually, these two are the same person: Donalo Sandomere.

Channeling is a trait of both body and soul. Ta'veren is not a trait of either, so much as a temporary condition, something bestowed by the Wheel as part of its self-correcting mechanisms.

The world is on the brink the DO is growing stronger. I know people think he cannot break free completely without Rand to free him, but really would it matter if he was not completely free? The world surely cannot take much more of his influence. And if the DR was killed this turning, who and how would he be resealed, before the age of Legends comes again? Would someone else seal him? Would Rand be born again in the next age? And if so what if he is killed in that one too and the next and so on?

I don't think we know all the answers that has to do with who wins and how. The champion of the light has turned, so I guess someone else might be able to undo the Bore - unless, of course, the CoL was killed by the light's side and then summoned by the horn (or something like that?).

But what, in your opinion would happen if Rand was killed in chapter 1 of aMoL the state of the world being how it was left at the end of ToM. It is made pretty clear that no one else can seal the bore or IMO seems that way to me.

It might be that only Rand could seal it up permanently, but that without Rand others might be able to patch it up, temporarily. Long enough for the Dragon to be Reborn Again. Killing Rand is not enough - in a world with rebirth, even if the others cannot win without him they can delay until he comes back.

Actually that was her greatest triumph. If it hadn't been here Rand would never have been pushed to reconcile his issues.

 

I don't think that's a valid argument for anything. That's like saying Lanfear is a hero for setting the dark one free so that Rand could seal him up again.

Cadsuane helped to fix a problem. Lanfear created one in the first place. The two are rather dissimilar.