Maybe if you responded to my points instead of only responding to the ones that allow you to weave around the point, you'd be able to get something through your skull. You are arguing what you would do in a probablistic strategy. It is not proven optimal 100% of the time. Someone who calculates differently (the value of roleblocker being freed, the value of a suspicious non-cced cop in the game, etc.) can act differently. Not all mafia will act as you think. Unless you of course, are part of the mafia team and know how they're acting! I'm down to discuss why DPR is scummy, can we move to that instead? I am also getting tired of re-iterating the same points on Dice to DPR, or even trying to convince him when I feel more and more confident he's scum. Vote: he's probably mafia fake claiming (not using his name just in case it switches the vote)

Honestly, Len might be the person I've spent the least time thinking about (sorry Len!), I missed him on my initial reads list 💀 Maybe I should be factoring in that initial cruise in more, but since the night, I think I've more or less agreed with most of his points, so it's kind of just there? Easy to be convinced either way on him if there are more salient points.

I would honestly love to, but if someone's gonna troll when other's are trying to be serious, they need to be reminded of their place. It appears DPR's forgotten what his is, and has got a fun little unearned god complex going on, compiled on top of some blatant stupidity. It appears I'll have to break things down for you in simple terms. You responded here below at my 10:19 AM, when I had responded to your post at 10:13 AM. Then this attempt at a joke was posted at 11:24 AM. It is now 1:11 PM and you still have not responded to my points made above, despite posting multiple times after. It's tough when your stupidity is proven to your face in a way you can't challenge, but I'd like you to put on your big boy pants and give it a shot!

Order of operations for hider vs roleblocker. Do they hide before the roleblocker reaches them, so that they're able to always hide? Or does the roleblocker get the hider before they can hide, so that they're unable to hide. Sorry if there's a standard here that's always followed.

Are you going to respond to the above @DPR points are do you need to go back to mafia chat to figure out how to respond? Bold of you to call out dumbassery in the thread, when you are doubling down on your idiocy once again, and repeatedly take a senior citizen's time to answer questions

Awww a compliment, I'm honored. Given that I have just jumped back in. And dw, I made plenty of dumb mistakes (night talking, missing TownDice, etc.), but I'll take what I can get.

I'm in red. I feel confident in my read about you again. Vote stays on. You seem to be generically applying logic from all mafia games that may not have roles like a roleblocker to this game that does have one. Think more please, instead of overgeneralizing so you don't have to use your brain. Trust I remember some things from my time here before, and your intelligence wasn't at the top of the list. I'm not putting much faith in what you consider stupid.

@DPR Doing it here for clarity with your main reasoning post, I need answers on the following * Why are you discounting the world in which mafia decides to use their RB to nullify Dice and keep up the pressure on him if he's actually town cop? * Why are you discounting the world where doctor believes the above and decides to protect someone else? * Why are you discounting the world where mafia knows doctor may believe the above, and try to not use their strongman shot on D1, and see if they can get a safe kill on cop (and maybe doc did protect Dice) * Why, when you were obviously online during the deadline yesterday, and Verbal, Dice, IE, and myself were scrambling to figure out the best decision to move forward when Dice caused complete chaos by first soft hinting a power role within the last hour, and hard claiming cop 2 min before deadline? Town is trying to help out as much as possible during the deadline, and you were useless

Out of game, good reminder ty <3. Still feel like a kid sometimes with the stupid decisions I make.

If people are claiming meta, can emotional breakdown be mine 💀 have always been vulnerable to it lmfao

Also lastly to clarify on DPR, that one thing I completely misread so I need to eliminate that from my head. There is also more I agree with during the day from his side. However, there was still a lot that was putting me towards scum, so I need to go back and remember what exactly that is so I can solidify my read, but as of right now, I believe he's still the scummiest person here, and has, multiple times, tried to distract and mislead town with horrible reasoning, that he should be better then

And that's fair. And now I'm caught up. Holy cow, 45 minutes later to work than I needed to be, I have to run and hold myself accountable to not come back here. But this is more fun than I remembered. Will respond to everyone in ~3 hours

This is in a previous game? Good to know thanks Was trying to avoid this topic explicitly so mafia didn't gain from it, but if mafia counterclaims cop like Dice did, the other mafia can completely abandon him to make sure they only benefit from his counterclaim. If they try to save him, it's bigger risk/bigger reward, and that's when they can go down. But if they distance from Dice, and act normally, then it's fine. I see your points, and I also see that you've said it's possible now, but you think it's unlikely because of your meta on Dice. That's fine. A lot of my read on you was based on your night behavior (which was because it was night, and I forgot the implications of talking honestly at night), and I have to now forget that vibe from you. You've definitely moved lower on my scum radar.

To clarify, I don't think I've ever mentioned that Dice specifically has to be GF to false claim cop, I think he'd do it as any mafia. I almost fully agree here. I think there's a possibility that dumb/suboptimal town makes a bad play in hopes of some hero genius level play and ignores the large chance of disaster. But I think it's a low possibility and I think the correct way for town to play is not lie about being cop ?? When did I become one of your strong scum reads? What's your reasoning on me? ... yup I think Tig's reasoning is bogus, but I'm biased, and I'm unsure if it's bad reasoning because she has bad reasoning, or because she's scum misleading. It's not so bad that I'm flabbergasted like some of the Ithi and DPR reactions I had (though some of those were either because it was night and not their true reaction (Ithi) or me misreading (DPR)).

This didn't happen, but I don't think I have a way to disprove it, so sure valid train of thought to go down. What I'm confused by though, is why you're going down this extremely unlikely train of thought of Dice and I being able to perfectly align snipes and votes and reveals and this whole interaction, while you're ignoring possibilities like doctor not protecting Dice, mafia not killing Dice, or even town Dice claiming cop to distract mafia, all of which I believe to be noticeably more likely than this. Just realized I'm a dumb dumb, thanks for kindly pointing it out. Wish I hadn't gone through the thread so linearly Yeah I remember liking your stance on Dice, and then getting confused by this whole dice claiming thing where I messed up what DPR was saying, and then I brought you back into it because during night you were saying that (which I now remember you were only doing to survive through night). My apologies, I think I got too much going on in my head and started forgetting things as I went down my train of thought. It appears everyone agrees that Dice could be mafia false-claiming, and that's where I am too. Awesome!

My bad DPR. I read this as you seeing there's no world where Dice false claimed cop, not TownDice. Was unfamiliar with that terminology until I saw it in this thread recently, so my eyes skim past that. Verbal agreeing with this struck me enough where I re-read it. I will admit my own stupidity when it happens. I will say Ithi had a decent point about scenarios where town can false claim cop to divert the bullet or roleblocker, but I think that's very unlikely, and as you mentioned, invites absolute disaster for town. I absolutely would not false claim cop as town. Guess I disagree with both Verbal and DPR on this interestingly enough. Dice could be the actual cop, but mafia knows that he's already pretty sussed out by multiple people, and they can nullify his utility completely with their role blocker with 100% accuracy as opposed to hoping they roleblock the doc or hider (can he be roleblocked @Darthe?) TLDR - I think it's a definite strong possibility (>20%) that mafia tried to shoot someone other than Dice even if he's town cop, because they can nullify him and draw attention to him. Though I think you v Verbal is town v town violence, I'm fully on your side here re: outdated meta. Especially past day 1 when we have a lot of juicy tidbits to dig into. I also think you confused Ithi defending Turin (which btw I believe was out of game scope and more on Heavy and/or Dice being a lil bad mannered to him) for the opposite, and if you made that mistake, similar to what you've done, you just fess up and move on. I'm trying not to factor in their dynamic between each other in this game, as I'm sure they are doing their absolute best to do the same.

I have two types of grouping I've done this game Turin, so let me separate the two. 1. I think players are linked by some action or conversation (when early D1 said at least one of Dice, IE, or Heavy was probably scum, or when I have recently said that Dice, DPR, Ithi, and Key are linked together on the wanting Marsh to get voted out yesterday). 2. The type I used above where I was just grouping together similar type players to summarize my reads, when I was still getting into the flow of the game. That was not meant to be a grouping used to indicate relations in the game, just people who I thought were playing similarly so far, and giving me a similar vibe. That has since changed as I've gotten a better handle of the game.

IRL I think I played sometime last year? On forums, it's been many years. If you're thinking of using your recent experience to override/smooth over the points I've made, don't. They're rooted in logic, and you'll need to logically argue your way through them, and either show me why I'm wrong, why you're wrong and willing to change your opinion, or fail to disprove what I'm saying in which case you're probably scum grasping.

i clarified this further down, so apologies if I repeat myself, but do you agree that my following belief is valid in this game? * Dice is scummy, and in the large scope of finding the mafia in this game, it is important to analyze him. It is also important to confront his opinions if they're wrong so that other people aren't convinced, and if he is town and my read is wrong, he is able to fix mistakes. It is also important to explain my actions so I'm not just attacking other people, but explaining why I am not mafia, just as I expect others to do. * He is the un-CCed cop, and however scummy I think he is, it's too risky to vote him out this day. In future days, that can change.

You know this is also fair and maybe I'm being too harsh on Ed's activity since it doesn't align with my style of being active. Noted.

So many hospital situations 😕 Hope she's ok

Nvm, on laptop and found the areas I forgot to address. Simply put because there's more than one mafia, and I want to keep my reads in mind when I read what they're convincing people of. But I agree that DPR is the guy to go to today, hence my vote. Glad you sparked this line of thinking, that's 2 out of 8, plus the doc save. If the doc save was randomly picked, the odds that it would not be used on the hider, BPV, or mafia are 6/11 (the 5 vanilla and the cop) and the odds that the doc save targeted the same person as the mafia NK given that the save was selected on a vulnerable town are (6/8 that mafia didn't select the hider or BPV, and 1/6 that mafia and doctor converged on the same player). That means (1/4) + (6/11 * 6/8 * 1/6) = (1/4) + (6/88) = (1/4 + 3/44) = (14/44) = (7/22) = 31.8%. Of that 25% is simply that the mafia hit the BPV or the hider, so that is actually way more likely than the doc saving the right target, doc please read this, your save only has a ~1/5 (6.8/31.8) chance of actually validating someone as a town All valid. I do want to emphasize that I believe there are also town on the IE train, and it is possible that is what you are. Note here: The other mafia also don't have anything to lose if Dice goes and tries to claim cop. They keep a teammate they would've otherwise lost, and get to fish for the cop.

@Ithillian Turambar responding to the above and your rambles including me here. * I do agree that in general this logic is very scummy. I think the important thing here though is that I had a town read and yet I was forced to vote for IE anyways, since otherwise there was a chance that a claimed cop would die. Do you agree that my hand was forced, and why from a neutral standpoint, we are looking at the people that voted for IE unforced? * Im going to TLDR since Ive gone into this in detail partially just above this and before, but here are my reasons for you, DPR, and Key DPR - Horrible reasoning on analyzing the game, trying to eliminate valid possibilities for town to think through, hung around deadline but didn't meaningfully contribute in a chaotic time, tried to specifically pidgeonhole IE into being scum with awful points Ithi - Bad points on whether Dice would false claim or not, to the point where I believe either you're missing something or you're misleading scum similar to DPR, and the votes on IE. There was some vibe stuff way back, but I honestly don't remember, and I don't think its as important now with more real tells. Key - Honestly get town vibes from her, her push on IE was the latest, and thats the only thing against her. Its why she's my biggest town read of the group * I agree that lynching Dice is dumb, so your ramble about me thinking to do that being dumb is correct, I just also agree with you. However, just because I know we can't vote him right now, doesn't mean that I trust him as confirmed town, I am still equally as suspicious because there's no logic telling me that his claim was valid, it just tells me it's not safe to vote him. I believe Im in alignment with Turin here if his explanation of this viewpoint makes more sense to you. Lmk if there's anything I missed!

I hate it when I agree with you. Makes me confused if Im saying the right thing. Thinking back to what Dice said about aura. I remember DPR being that guy back in the day when I played often, and factoring that in when I played. Many years later, all of that background is gone for me, and I think thats good because you're suggesting concretely decent probability outcomes as negligible and muddying the waters. Maybe your playstyle integrates the aura youve built up over time and getting other town to trust your analysis, and that backfires on this game of a lot of people returning from hiatus. But Im spitballing now.

So sorry Nyn, hope your dad heals fully, take care of yourself 🤍