1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 IMHO the arc from carefree scamp to darkened by the dagger, healed  to redeemed is far more compelling than already damaged person, darkened by a dagger, not really healed to who knows what.

That is MHO as well.  Not that anyone hasn't figured that out already.....

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

It is boring, uninteresting, provides no actual development and tells us nothing about this character.

Funny how many book readers were Mat fans from the early going.  Boring and uninteresting to you but not me or others.

I get it.  It's personal taste.  There are characters some people love that I don't.

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Because of feeling emotionally invested in their relationship? 

 

 

My point is that with Last of the Mohicans, they got us invested in the relationship with a few looks and a helping hand up a steep climb.  They didn't need more than what Jordan wrote.  They don't need to hit us over the head with this stuff.  The audience is capable of dealing with subtlety.

1. Lan being impressed by her tracking

2. Her being impressed by him finding her horse

2. A few looks

4. Her telling him "some men are strong enough, I know one such"

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

For sure

 

But we then would find it difficult to relate to his romance with Nynaeve happening so quickly, and to feel invested in it

Who wasn't gutted when he died and she jumped off the cliff?  I don't think they spoke more than ten words to each other and they certainly didn't spend a night in bed.

I think they tried to modernize the story.  I really don't think the changes to tone or character were driven by the time available, the budget or the visual medium.

11 minutes ago, dwn said:

In a book we get a detailed window into Mat (or any character) via his own thoughts and internal monologues. A visual medium simply can't do that--voiceovers in old-school detective shows notwithstanding. Therefore the show needs to use or create scenes and situations that clearly and succinctly reveal those character traits that could otherwise be missed, like Mat's selflessness and bravery.

Agreed, but I think you can do that without changing the tone of the character.  I can't think the showrunners are lazy so it must have been intentional.

24 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think you are spot-on here. I've been reading and re-reading the books for about twenty years and I had so been looking forward to seeing my favorite characters on screen. Of course I'm going to be disappointed when the Lan I see isn't recognizable as the one I know from the books (going with Lan here as he seems to be one of the most divisive character modifications).

 

Having said that, I don't consider myself a 'purist' (don't think that's a very nice or helpful term, but I've seen it used on here ?). I absolutely love some of the changes - Logain's new material is fantastic for example.

Agreed.  I really like what they did with Logain (except the maniacal laughter).  I could have misinterpreted when I read that scene but I always through he was laughing at the absurdity of chaining him with Rand shining like a beacon from the courtyard wall.  I don't remember him seeming mad/tainted at any point.  Certainly despondent after he was gentled, but not mad. 

36 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I really disagree. I think in an ensemble cast you quite often get a 'strong, silent' type that viewers respond well, too. It wouldn't work if all the characters were like that, but I think one out of a big group is fine. 

 

I think it's actually a well-enjoyed trope when you have a stoic, 'emotionless' character who then steps in to help in some way/shows emotional walls breaking down, etc.. Seeing Lan's transformation from someone who was married to death and duty into a mentor figure for Rand and loving husband for Nynaeve would have been beautiful on TV, in my humble opinion.

Points for the first person to name the character and movie.  (a GREAT adaptation of a book).

12 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

ere RJ wrote about a breakdown in a relationship between R&E. He tried to create an emotional impact on R because of this. They have taken that and made it more visible.

Agreed.  My point was only that you don't need to age a character to form a connection with the audience.  

1 minute ago, DigificWriter said:

 

All of these attitudes are, I believe, rooted in an unwillingness to let the producers of the show retell the story using the tools of visual-medium storytelling.

Tools of visual-medium storytelling don't preclude Abel Cauthen being a stand up husband, father and council member.

1 minute ago, dwn said:

It's not far off Moiraine's logic (or leap of faith) in going to the Eye in the books. She had three ta'veren, one of whom was the Dragon Reborn, and an apparent threat to the Eye of the World. She decided that the best course of action was to bring them together and hope the pattern knew what it was doing.

Its fairly different in that a threat to the eye of the world wasn't seen as directly going to battle the dark one.  They went to talk to the green man.

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

For example, for R&E to have a mature relationship adds a lot to the emotional connection people will have with what is going on between them.

Granted, it's an extreme example but they didn't do this with Harry Potter.  Those characters were spot on to the youngsters portrayed in the books and yet, film audiences connected to them very well. (young and old alike).

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Yes Tam gets the shortend of the stick here, and it could probably have been done before. But it's frankly very minor and hardly the point of the scene.

I think it was important.  Again, Rand comes to several realizations about Tam in EoTW.  The first happened in this scene.

O.K., they didn't have the cash to film this scene with multiple trollocs, all the chasing and hiding, the trolloc staying behind, rand killing it, etc.  Why did they have the cash to complete a brilliant scene with Tigraine?

The didn't have the solid writing, directing, camera, CGI for a scene with Tam but they did for one with Tigraine?

Bah.  They nerfed him.  They nerfed Abel, they nerfed Perrin (for the time being) and they've nerfed Lan to oblivion.  Wait.  That's too strong.  They nerfed Lan big time.  

27 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You stopped doing any forms, sparring and activity at all regarding those skills 14 years ago?

No, you remember how to fight, you know what you're supposed to do, but you'd be slow, sloppy, unpracticed and it would show.

Kind of like how Tam got multiple strikes in but was just a touch off and didn't finish the job.  

Sorry, if you really haven't practiced for 14 years you'd maybe be fine against someone untrained, but you're not who you were 14 years ago or anywhere close to it if you actually stopped.

I'm saying this as someone who hasn't seriously held a sword in 11 years and I know exactly how rusty and out of practice I am.

Jordan's version - the first contact with a trolloc on Winternight:

"Even as the kettle struck, Tam's sword flashed.  The roar abruptly became a gurgle and the huge shape toppled back."

Doesn't seem too rusty.

I like my heroes to be heroes.  This is 'high fantasy'. I'm fine with pregnant Tigraine kicking seven kinds of dog crap out of those soldiers.  It fits.  Tam kicking some trolloc in ep1 would have fit.  It was the first point Rand looked at his father and thought maybe he didn't know everything about him......

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

You must hang out with angry people. Because "abomination" is some pretty over-the-top language for a tv show. 

No they are not angry people (thanks for the insult).  As a general state, I'm not angry either.  Abomination is perfect language for an on-line forum discussing a tv show.

Abomination - "a thing that causes disgust or hatred".  I think disgust fits.  I'm disgusted that they turned EF into a bawdy, dark town vs a town with resilient mostly upstanding folks recently come through a hard winter.  I'm disgusted that they turned Mat from  light hearted trickster into god knows what.  I'm disgusted that they took away the light hearted war of the sexes.  I'm disgusted that they took away the "I don't know about women, but I think Rand does, or maybe Perrin".  I'm disgusted that they turned Abel Cauthen into a drunk womanizer.  I could go on.

I'm sad about how they changed Lan and Nynaeve's courtship.  I loved it in the books and I wanted to see it played out on screen.  I could go on but as I've said before, we're all in our trenches.

On 12/16/2021 at 1:01 PM, Yojimbo said:

Lanfear...

 

Yes!  Who is she?

2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I beg to differ on this point.

 

All of the WoT book fans I've been engaging with since the premiere have, overall, been very happy with the show overall, even if they're not 100% happy with all of the choices that the show is making.

Wow.  There are a bunch on this site that are very unhappy with it.  Every single person I know in my off-line life that has read the books thinks the show is an abomination.  Most have stopped watching.

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The following of the books is insignificant in terms of the numbers Amazon is trying to draw. I'm baffled by the fact that you didn't see these type of changes coming from day one. 

I saw them coming from the day castings were announced.  Doesn't mean I wanted the changes or agreed that they were needed to draw the 'massive' audience.

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

To do something new with the story. The books still exist. The story you care so deeply about isn't worse because someone chooses to tell it in a different way.

Agree with that.  My constant question is why change things that don't need to be changed.  These books had a massive, devoted following for a reason.  I get that they needed to compress.  They didn't need to change tone.

20 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You mean after he:

Recovers from his wounds KNOWING his son is out there and needs him.
Travels to Tar Valon and back.
Survives on his own essentially with the White Cloaks and Trollocs before teaming up with Verin and Alanna
Becomes a military leader in the Two Rivers, guiding and directing forces against the Trollocs.
Becomes Perrin's Captain and leads troops in Ghealdan...

It's like at the start of the series he's 20 years out of practice and then has pressing reason to practice and get back into form over the next 3 years. 

Nope.  As in; he was a blade master that kept up archery and staff skills.  Worked a farm so he's in shape.

I taught MA for ten years (more or less).  I stopped teaching and participating 14 years ago.  If I put on my pads, I can still fight.  

My thinking is a blade master (even one who doesn't take his sword out of the storage chest) still knows which is the pointy end.

18 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Good.

 

Because the show's versions of these two characters aren't the same as their book counterparts, nor should they be.

100% Disagree.  I love the way Jordan wrote them.  There isn't a need to change them (it's not an example of a timeline that needed to be compressed), so why do it?

20 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

But he didn’t find that out. Tam was just rambling. He just pieced it together. 

Would have better to have Rand worrying about the fever dream episodes 2-7 rather than mooning about Egwene.

23 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

We didn't see Rand channeling in his POV in the first book until the end. He had no idea what was happening

Nope but we did see other signs.  A better escape the locked room/lightning scene.  The scene on the ships mast, the scene with the white cloaks....

On 12/17/2021 at 5:50 PM, dwn said:

In all fairness, you could rephrase it like:

• A middle-aged soldier-turned-shepherd who hasn't used a sword in 20 years is a bit rusty when fighting giant monsters.
• An exceptionally fit young woman who's been actively fighting over the past several months is--despite being pregnant--still formidable when facing off against typical foot soldiers.

Yet in the final battles, he fights well enough for Lan to say something like - yes you earned the heron mark...

On 12/17/2021 at 11:03 AM, Elder_Haman said:

This is the first book. The extent of their romance at this point was - they are now in love. Which is pretty much where we're at in the show.

And?

My point was the tone is different, not that they hadn't kindled a romance yet.

Just now, Yojimbo said:

Ewwww.   

No doubt.