On 9/29/2023 at 11:03 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Imma need a citation.

I'd wager that if you had the data, it would result in basically a bell curve. A few people who REALLY love it, a few people who REALLY hate it. And the vast majority somewhere in the middle.

Sorry, all I have is anecdotal.  None of the people ‘out in the world’ that I ever discussed this story with likes the TV show.  Not one.

On 10/11/2023 at 12:53 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No. The people you refer to recognize that Rafe Judkins is creating a television show and that Robert Jordan was writing novels and that those are two different things.

Rafe isn’t ‘creating’ a TV show.  He’s adapting novels to TV.  It may seem like a minor distinction but it’s certainly part of the problem for me.

On 10/6/2023 at 12:24 PM, grayavatar said:

The explanation for why the story doesn't stick to the books is limited time and limited seasons allocated. This meaning that more than one book will need to fit in each season. But is this true? I feel that these two season demonstrate that they had the capability to stick much more closely to the books.

 

Many people were saying "Lol, these fans expect the story word for word". If anything I feel that we got too many words.

I truly feel that if you took most of the dialogue from the first two books you would end up with less dialogue than what we got in the show. The books are thick but it's mostly descriptive text.

 

For most of the 16 episodes approx 16 hours of runtime what we got was a meandering Days of Our Lives drama. Warders lounging around and chatting, almost every male character being emotional or weeping on the floor. Darkfriends and Forsaken frolicking with Trollocs and chidren showing what nice guys they really are. Ishamael and Selene flirting? c'mon! Falme was the time for Nynaeve to shine, instead she spent most of the time staring at Elaynes leg. Selene and Liandrin had way too much screen time.

 

Where is the urgency, the tension? Where are the stakes? Is the importance of the prophecies understood by the audience? Ishmael's actor should be an extra at this point with very limited dialogue. Anytime he is shown he must be menacing. (Think Darth Vader) Suroth should have been flat on the floor begging for mercy, instead she was trying to boss one of the Forsaken around. You can't have a story like this without actual bad guys. The Seanchan where almost portrayed like good guys, which at this point of the story they should not be. The Whitecloaks were the towns liberators. Where was Ingtar's reveal and redemption?

 

One very great issue with this show is that they take too long to establish some concepts while the rest of the story lags.

What are Damane?

This should have taken 10 minutes at most. You could establish this by putting Eqwene in a 1 meter wide partition in a room with many such partitions. Have her pull at the adam bracelet like it is Marvel Thor's immovable hammer. Have her given a pet name and be patted on the head. Have her punished/ rewarded with the adam like training a puppy. I could demonstrate this in 5 minutes or less across 2-3 short scenes. Renna had way too much screen time.

 

What are warders and what does the bond do?

Have one of the boys, while training with Lan, ask "why not just have an army of warders?"  and then Lan succinctly explains the benefits and limitations. I think this one scene alone would eliminate about 4 episodes of show content. Maybe more !

 

Costs

Many of the actors that played roles of background characters should have had limited dialogue and been little more than extras. Alanna's warders should be seen and not heard. Verin's warder was portrayed well.

I feel way too much effort was put in to practical effects for the Ways in season 1 only to CGI it better in season 2

The adam don't need to be CGI'd to this extent. Show the leash, have the sul'dam tug on the leash, this will have greater effect on screen. How are damane supposed to report to their masters or beg for forgiveness if they have a sucker in their mouth? The blonde Seanchan damane almost seemed like she was giving orders with her stance and attitude. Head held high, shoulders back.

The novice quarters in the White Tower are ridiculously large and elaborate. They should be almost cells.

What was that giant throne on top of a pyramid that was somehow dragged in to a forest where there are no roads? LOL. Does it have a retractable bulldozer. Completely unnecessary.

Building an entire village on that river where Perrin gets captured? As people move to cities there are many underpopulated vilages and towns in europe. There are many cowboy western sets in the USA that can be repurposed. Not every house needs thatched roofs. Even Emond's Field had some roof tiles. In Rand's dream where he was married to Egwene how much did it cost to build that house with the round timber roof?

Barthanes, a very minor character in the books is the second most powerful lord in Cairhien, yet an entire set was built for him to sit and eat among the kitchen servants? Really?! As far as I can tell this is the only time they used this set. I hope they didn't build the location for the party in Cairhien because that scene was so inconsequential (and slow and boring) compared to the books.

 

Pacing

The first season should have been a desperate escape from Emond's field via Shadar Logoth, reuniting in Caemlyn and rushing to Fal Dara. Tar Valon should not have been shown yet as it bogged the story down.

Season 2 should have been an adventurous gut clencher chasing after the horn, "Lord Rand" should not have been glossed over. Culminating in Falme with Min rather than Avienda. The scenes inside Falme with Ingtars party should have emphasized stealth with the battle happening later OUTSIDE the city using CGI to multiply the soldiers on each side in to 2 large armies. The battle took the whole final episode in the show but it should have only been about 10 minutes at most. Mat on a roof facing 2 dozen Seanchan waiting in a line to charge him was utter nonsense. I laughed so hard at this and then I laughed harder when the heroes appeared. It was filmed like a high school production and then some high school productions might do better. Very much an unimpressive anticlimax. Birgitte should have been CGI'd riding through the clouds and shooting  arrows that set ships on fire. Instead we got some no-personality cosplayers standing in a line.

Season 3 is where the white tower should have been introduced. Hunters for the horn. Faile. Mat with Gawyn Galad. Everyone heading to the stone and meeting Aiel along the way.

 

I feel the story has been mixed like a salad and landed in the same spot as in the books, only the plot has been sacrificed along the way in exchange for a strong focus on what should be background characters. There is just so much that could have been cut out of the show and replaced with actual story.

Many of the more interesting aspects from the books have been suppressed while bolstering all the boring stuff.

 

There was so many times the story was bogged down in useless drama where I wished I could physically give it a push to move it along.

 

Amen brother.

I’m going to try and avoid bitching on each and every thread……..

For the record, I did come back to try and watch season 2, even though I really disliked season one.  Eternal hope for my favorite book series I guess.

1.  Jordan’s books (the STORY) are why we are all here.  He wrote an incredible story, with incredible characters.

2.  This is NOT Jordan’s story.  I can go along with Sanderson who said he looks at it as a different turning of the wheel.  O.K.  I can get there.  However, this turning is not as interesting to me as the turning written by Jordan and it’s not close.

3.  “It has to be adapted to fit the TV medium, blah, blah, blah…..  Other works have been adapted well.  Band of Brothers.  GoT., etc.

4.  The acting blows.  I’ve always like Pike, but she won’t ever look back and call this her best work.  No subtlety whatsoever.  I turned off S2E2 after seeing Eqwene pout for the 80th time after hearing about Nyneve’s potential compared to hers.  It was like watching a nikelodian after school tv show.

5.  The casting is off.  Sheriam is the only great fit for me so far.  Moraine and Rand are O.K., but most of the rest are miles off.  I will give props to the new Mat.  At least I can understand this guy’s dialog.  I had to turn on captions for the original guy.  Uno is O.K. Too.

6.  The characters are not generally like-able.  Nyneve is like-able but she has none of the foibles that made the book Nyneve my second favorite character.  

6.  I’ll try and watch a few more episodes as it seems that folks here are writing that the episodes get better as they go.  Let’s hope.

Or Hailee Steinfeld..

Odette Anabelle - Probably too old now...

Ingtar wont be recognizable if even present...

On 5/8/2022 at 5:34 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Same here

Trouble understanding Mat doesn't quite describe it.  I had to turn closed caption on - which I detest.  I'm not sure why anyone was disappointed to see that actor leave.  I flat couldn't understand anything he said.

On 5/8/2022 at 3:06 AM, Andra said:

I actually went to high school in Minnesota.  After moving there from Ohio.

I didn't think I had an accent, but the rest of the kids in my class swore I did.

 

They all sounded a bit different to me, but nowhere near as extreme as the stereotype.

 

Interestingly enough, I did meet a couple people who spoke with that exaggerated "Fargo" accent.  In Thief River Falls and Bemidji.  Uff da.?

I have a ex-brother in law from south Minneapolis/Richfield.  He has that classic Minnesota accent.  I have some property in Ely (near the Canadian border) which is chock full of Finns.  That's another 'Minnesota' accent all by itself!

Quite a lot here that makes sense and may be interesting to watch.  It's certainly not the story I wanted, but it seems like the story I'm going to get.

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

he thought tam was pretty badass in that fight.

I'm at a loss.......

Not quite sure how they resurrect Mat after S1.  Maybe it was only a dream that he didn't go to Fal Dara with the rest?

Rafe's twitter fireside chat indicated they were not letting these two 'great actors' sit on the sidelines in season 2.  I'm sure everyone can guess that I'm not pleased because that means less of the original story and more of them filling in the blanks with their story.  Not something I think they've done well so far.

With that out of the way, what story lines do you anticipate them fleshing out?  Moraine learning about Tam's background and other action referenced by Jordan or storylines newly created for the series?

I'm not saying she has great acting chops, but she can hold her own with anyone currently on the show.

Megan Fox has the look that Jordan described.  Not that it will matter in this case (Rafe wouldn't pick her in a billion years), but I think she'd fit.

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

But that doesn't change that there is logic in what they were doing and reasons for it.

And that is my real point (sarcastically made).  They didn't need to advance his arc.  They didn't do anything with his story in season one anyhow.  Why advance his internal struggle?

13 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Just want to point out.  Perrin being a berserker if not careful Is in the books.  Him killing someone early on that he did NOT want to kill is a stronger motivator for the Axe Hammer debate than him killing two white cloaks he didn't care about.  

And lastly, they didn't make up a character, Laila is in the series.  Perrin thinks that he would have married her if he had stayed in the Two Rivers.

1.   Perrin wasn't a berserker in ep 1.  He swung his axe and accidently hit his wife with it.

2.  Laila is MENTIONED in the books as someone he may have married if things turned out differently.  She wasn't a developed character.  She was mentioned in passing.

3.  They didn't need to give Perrin stronger motivation to mope around.  He didn't do anything in season one anyhow.  Oh wait, he needed to be so afraid to use his axe because of fridging his made up wife so that he wouldn't step in and defend Uno and Loial when they were being attacked by Fain while holding the Horn of Valere that should have been at the Eye of the World covered by a pool of Saidin that Rand would use to fight Isshy and turn the battle at Tarwins' gap but I guess none of that needed to happen because the untrained girls were going to kill all of the Trollocs by themselves anyhow.........

PUKE

GoT started the first episode with a fairly clean story line.

1.  A scene with something obviously scary - The trolloc attack is later in the WoT ep 1 rather than the beginning.  The original book open with Lews Therrin & Isshy would have suited better in my opinion

2. A scene finding direwolves matched to the Stark children - obvious foreshadowing and engages us with the Stark children - who doesn't love wolf puppies? - Nothing like this in WoT ep 1

3. Momentous occurrence with the king & family visiting -Trolloc attack in Wot ep 1 somewhat fits this bill

4.  Likeable characters introduced and made likable immediately.  The tone in GoT got dark a bit later....  WoT characters were whiney & troubled from the get go.

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I love how people armchair produce without being able to present a viable alternative script, shooting plan, an idea of what it will all cost and how you will get all the actors to set on the days you need them to make Your version of the story. It is so easy to sit there and complain but seems a lot harder to actually out the work in to plan out, in detail, script by script what you would do instead, where and how you would shoot it and how you would book those days.

That's life.  That's business.  Every business faces tough choices and 'impossible' situations.  Great organizations overcome them and provide great products instead of mediocre products.

There's an iPad development story out there about Steve Jobs telling his team they needed to make the iPad smaller/thinner.  They said it couldn't be done.  There was no more space to take out.  He threw the prototype in a tub of water and they watched the bubbles stream out.  They figured out a way to make it smaller.........

I love the condescension on this site.  Do you think I don't understand that there are challenges?  That's why these people make extremely high salaries.  I don't begrudge them that but I do think they should earn them.

17 hours ago, Andra said:

That could certainly be the point.

 

I suspect it's more likely just her version of riding gloves.  What's odd, if that's what they are, is that they leave unprotected substantial parts of her hands that you would normally want to be protected while handling reins.  Depending on her pose, they don't even extend as far as her knuckles, much less her fingers.

 

What made me notice them is that when she puts them on in her very first scene, I was reminded of the brace Eastwood wore on one hand in "For a Few Dollars More."  Just without extending as far down his wrist.

 

It's interesting that they are actually notable enough to be included in Cosplay costumes for her.

That's the gloves on the bottom left.

And what they look like on her vs. the costume:

I never did understand the shoulder pads???

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

They  can also have their 'ajah' known without necessarily being proven to be Aes Sedai.  Moiraine can wear blue, and we know it's her Ajah, as does everyone else, but there's nothing about wearing blue that means she has to be an Aes Sedai, so Valda couldn't grab her there (even if he had suspicions)

I'd say it would be quite a bit more obvious.  How many folks in TV WOT are waling around in full red that aren't red ajah Aes Sedai?  In the books, most Aes Sedai don't wear their shawls unless they are in the tower.  Only a select few know Moraine is Aes Sedai in the books (other Aes Sedai and a few that she knows well).

21 minutes ago, expat said:

One aspect that no one has mentioned is that the new actor would need to adapt his style to the existing acting style that Barney used in the first 6 episodes.  This is a streaming series, so many people would be watching episode 7 immediately after episode 6 (even a week between episodes would have pretty much the same affect for current viewers). It would be jarring enough when a new face shows up for Mat, but if the new actor talked differently (say faster or slower) with a different accent using different mannerisms, the sense of something wrong would be that much stronger. Just like any other complex job, there is a learning curve that new people need to follow before they can replace an existing employee. 

Mat was the least remarkable of the three (book and TV) to this point in the story.  Better to have the slight whiplash of an actor change than to completely change the story.

2 hours ago, Requiem said:

This is not just any actor, this is one of the main characters of what is hopefully a long running series that they are having to recast, they can't just hire Joe Bloggs from down the road to come in and do some lines, they have to find someone who fits the role and is willing to contract themselves to this production for several years.

I wonder how many people originally auditioned for Mat?  Tons.

I wonder if they had a hard time choosing between final candidates?  My guess is that they had a few in the end with people on the casting team each having their favorites.  So let's say there were three near the end.  Outside of Pike, none of these actors are in high demand.  There is a good chance one of the others could have been available, and they most likely would have given their left nut for the role.  I know I'm in the minority on the first actor (Barney) as I didn't care for him.  I couldn't understand anything he mumbled.

Does anyone else feel like the full color Aes Sedai costumes are a bit of a hammer blow?  Yes, there are strong factions in the Tower but how are they going to show the cold war after Elaida takes over if everyone is currently in full color.  Do they think the shawls alone would have been too subtle?

The books had a 'sameness' after a while which is why I stopped after a while.  Similar to William Kent Krueger's Cork O'Conner series.  The first were very interesting because of the setting Minnesota/Ontario border wilderness and the Ojibwe flavor, but after a while each books follows the same general pattern.

My thinking on the Reacher TV series was it was a very very good adaptation.

On 2/19/2022 at 2:19 AM, EmreY said:

 

If I imagine Steve Jobs being faced with the prospect of the immediate departure of a fifth of his leading engineers, I can certainly see a delay in the works.

 

But you can delay the launch of a phone, or a film, but not a TV series.

This was ONE actor.  One guy to come in and read some lines in front of a camera.  Not 30 engineers with proprietary knowledge.  Yes you can delay a TV series.  They do it all the time.  They delay blockbuster movies as well (Top Gun) most recently.