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WoT If...Lan Survives the Last Battle?


Mashiara Sedai

Welcome back to another edition of "WoT If?". This week, I want to examine Min's viewings, what they actually consist of, and different ways they can be interpreted. I feel that some of what she sees hints at answers with regards to Lan and Birgitte, in particular. But before we begin:

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, or Chapter 11. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

 

I think we need to come to the harsh reality that some of our beloved characters will die in the last book. As much as I don't want that to happen, it needs to. And even though Rand will die, I'm convinced he will be Healed, or his soul will be reclaimed. He doesn't count as one of the characters who will die, in my opinion.

 

But there is one who most believe will die during the Last Battle: Lan. As my favorite male character, I'm hoping he won't. So, naturally, I'm going to point out all the clues—mostly from Min's viewings—that suggest he might survive Tarmon Gai'don.

 

First, let's look at this interview with Robert Jordan to see what he has to say about Min's viewings.

 

Slayer: Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

 

Robert Jordan: Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

 

I think this is so interesting, because I assumed this viewing was of the past, too. Let's see exactly what Min said before we go into it more.

 

The Eye of the World

Chapter 15, "Strangers and Friends"

 

“The War...ah...Master Andra has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword, and...” She shook her head. “Men like him — you understand? — always have so many images they crowd one another."

 

We learn later (Chapter 47, "More Tales of the Wheel"), that Lan is the last Lord of the Seven Towers. And his parents placed a sword in his infant hands, and consecrated him the next Malkieri king. I think our first instinct at this point is to think back to Min's viewing and say, "Oh, there are the Seven Towers, and the babe with a sword." Pretty simple.

 

But, taking that quote from Robert Jordan into consideration, especially because the asker points out the viewings in The Eye of the World, we know these are future events. And if these events are in the future, I think it's safe to assume that Lan will bear a child with Nynaeve.

 

Looking at the timeline for The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight, we see that it took Lan 100 days to ride from World's End, in Saldaea, to Tarwin's Gap, in Shienar. That's 100 days he's been apart from Nynaeve. That's more than three months, which would be plenty of time for Nynaeve to start showing if she was pregnant. We've seen her take the test for Aes Sedai, and know she swore on the Oath Rod; both things she wouldn't do if she was pregnant. So, I'm going to conclude that, at this point, Nynaeve is not pregnant.

 

There is a viewing Min has about Nynaeve that might put a damper on this theory, in some people's opinions.

 

The Gathering Storm

Chapter 48, "Reading the Commentary"

 

And...what was that vision that was suddenly hovering above Nynaeve's head? She was kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief. The viewing was gone a moment later.

 

Min shook her head. That hadn't been a viewing she could interpret, so she let it pass. She couldn't waste her time trying to unravel all of those.

 

Nynaeve is a very kind soul—despite her bullying. We saw in her test for Aes Sedai that they constantly made her walk away from sick children because it hurt her the most. She is a natural healer, wanting to cure anyone and everyone. So, her bent over in a posture of grief doesn't necessarily mean it's Lan she's mourning.

 

Also, notice how Min can't interpret it. Nynaeve mourning the loss of her husband is pretty straightforward. Not much to interpret there. I think it more likely that it's Rand's body she's bent over. And it's this scene where she will Heal him, or grab onto his soul.

 

My conclusion: Lan has to survive the Last Battle.

 

Let's move on to Birgitte. Many wonder if she is still bound to the Horn after being ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. There are a few reasons I believe this is so.

 

Now, this might not count as proof, but I want to point it out. After Mat recognizes Birgitte in A Crown of Swords, they speak in the Old Tongue and she calls Mat "Horn Sounder" (Chapter 21, "Swovan Night"). I think this definitely shows that Mat is still bound to the Horn, because Birgitte was in Tel'aran'rhiod after he was killed and brought back to life (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 54, "To Caemlyn"). I feel Birgitte, being a Hero, would feel if the connection to Mat had been broken by his death and rebirth. Again, that's not really about Birgitte, but I think the parallels are similar. Birgitte is still bound after her strange rebirth too.

 

And the main reason Birgitte is still bound to the Horn is Min's first viewings of her.

 

Winter's Heart

Chapter 12, "A Lily in Winter"

 

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another.

 

Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

Remember that all these viewings are in the future. She has so many of them, more so than Rand, even—and he's also bound to the Horn. This is probably due to Birgitte being ripped out. But she still has a thousand more lives to live, and all of them connected to Gaidal Cain. I think her rebirth threw off their cycle—hence his being younger or older—but there's no doubt she's still bound to him.

 

And if Birgitte is bound to Gaidal, I don't think her connection to the Horn has been broken either.

 

I have one last thing to point out about Min's viewings.

 

Question: How valid are the viewings and prophecies, given that the Pattern has been loosened? There was also a comment by the person about how the viewings and prophecies are readings of the Pattern.

 

Robert Jordan (paraphrased): The viewings and prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern are very valid. But those that occurred at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.

 

This shows that everything—viewings, dreamwalker's prophecies, foretellings—are less true today than yesterday. And probably will continue to be less likely. We know Rand's use of balefire on Natrin's Barrow caused a great loosening of the Pattern (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 37, "A Force of Light"). Plus, we know Demandred was commanded to unleash balefire on the world by the Dark One (Lord of Chaos, Prologue). With the Pattern taking so much damage, I'm not sure how far we can trust any recent viewings.

 

And that's all we have time for today. Next week, I want to look at the end of The Great Hunt and try to answer lingering questions about events at Falme. Thanks for reading!




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I do not agree with mark and lavender dog about the wolves saving rand... mat had word that many wolf packs are beginning to arrive at the Blight already and I believe will be 'busy' considering that Arafel and Kandor are about to be swallowed by Shadowspawn, especially Jumara, the source of the red veiled aiel.

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@wotfan4472

 

saving rand??? i never said that... saving lan... and perrin said that the wolves were headed north from dragonmount... which would be towards tarwins gap...

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I think we could even assume that Nynaeve is not pregnant yet because she, with her channeling awesomeness, will be too important in the LB (imagine how the difficulties would piss her off :).

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I think we could even assume that Nynaeve is not pregnant yet because she, with her channelling awesomeness, will be too important in the LB (imagine how the difficulties would piss her off :).

 

wow... a woman, letalone a yellow AS, missing her monthly for 3 months and not noticing, letalone getting delved? then going and putting herself into dangerous situations(testing), while not having any difficulties holding onto saidar... imo, that would be a "no"...

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I'm not sure who it was who (maybe mark) who said that Rand will not be the one to help Lan. If I recall correctly, the reason given for this was that Rand would not have enough time to help Lan.

 

I must respectfully offer a different perspective. Rand saved what was left of the city of Maradon in about 30 minutes, and he faced HUGE numbers of shadowspawn without an angreal. Don't know if the numbers Lan is up against are similar, but even if he's facing twice as many as attacked Maradon, Rand could make SHORT work of them, probably in about an hour. I think Rand will make time to help Lan personally, if for no other reason than for Nynaeve's sake. And if he takes an angreal with him...? Well, it could be a bad time to be a shadowspawn in Tarwin's Gap.

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I like the arguments you make for Lan surviving. Nynaeve is my favorite female character, and I would hate for her to go through the suffering Lan's death would bring... especially when he is now her warder as well as husband. Like a current pregnancy, the Aes Sedai/Warder grief would be problematic, since it appears she will have a prominent role in helping Rand with his plan for dealing with the DO and will need all of her faculties and powers.

 

I also don't believe that the body from Min's vision is Lan. Min says that Nynaeve hovers over "someone's" body in a "posture" of grief. That's a lot of leeway, LOL. I've always thought it was Rand, and that Nynaeve will be a second part of Alivia's "helping" Rand to die... whether it's snatching his soul or healing after "whatever" Alivia does. I also always thought it was possible that Nynaeve was one of the three women around Rand's funeral bier anyway. I know most people think it's his three wives... but I'm not so sure that they will all be there. Even though the pattern changes, I've always viewed this as the three Queens on the boat with King Arthur's body, and thus I've always seen Nynaeve as "the Lady of the Lake" and Moiraine as "Morgan le Fey" as two of those women, and maybe even Egwene as "Guinevere" as the third. I know, sometimes Morgan is considered evil... but often she's just concerned with preserving "old" Britain or "the Land"..which seemed like Moiraine being willing to do "whatever it takes" to prepare Rand for his role in the earlier books.

 

If I'm completely wrong and Lan does die, then I would assume it gives her extra impetus to "avenge what cannot be defended"... meaning Lan for her. Oh well... at least we're on the countdown to find out!!

 

On a side note... I think if any major women die, it will be Min. Her whole motivation in the book is tied to Rand himself. The others have kingdoms other responsibilities for after the LB... Min has only Rand. If he ends up in TAR as some have suggested... then she might be there. And even though Elayne looks like Elenya... Min may be the Elenya like casualty of this cycle and die.

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@gwenifer.

"with her channeling awesomeness"

a wonderful tribute to an awesome and amazing character,

taishar nynaeve.

chapeau to you gwenifer.

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@Edsel,

 

I'm too of the opinion that Min is the first among the major women to die. Although it'll break my heart, for she's my favorite girl, apart from Nynaeve.

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

If Min does die--and I'm not convinced she will--it will have to wait till after the Last Battle. There's been too many viewings she's been a part of to die before/during the battle. First off, she sees her own face around Rand's funeral pyre, so she's alive after he dies; then, we have Nicola's foretelling which says "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives" (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14, "Dreams and Nightmares"), so we know she lives after Rand is resurrected and the "great battle" is done.

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@gwenifer

 

I know... but everyone...inside the series and outside the series... loves Min, which will give the ending the appropriate pathos and gravity. And even though I hate it, I will still want it to be that way, because the victory needs to come with a price. That's what I always loved about LOTR... everything was permanently changed for all those involved... and it was bittersweet. By the way... my next favorite female character is Verin. xo) and equally Moiraine.

 

Oh... I also meant to add that I think when Tuon comes to strike against Egwene, some battle will have started, and they will end up working together... so I agree that Egwene will be too busy to be the help for Lan... plus I don't think she really cares anyway.... she's an Aes Sedai Amyrlin to the core... White Tower above all. I enjoyed her rise so much... but I'm back to my old feelings about her, which aren't the best. Hopefully she'll learn something from Nynaeve...or else Tuon!! LOL.

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If Min does die--and I'm not convinced she will--it will have to wait till after the Last Battle. There's been too many viewings she's been a part of to die before/during the battle. First off, she sees her own face around Rand's funeral pyre, so she's alive after he dies; then, we have Nicola's foretelling which says "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives" (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14, "Dreams and Nightmares"), so we know she lives after Rand is resurrected and the "great battle" is done.

 

This is all true. But it may happen before the LB is done, i.e. Rand dies, gets resurrected and then completes his task.

 

By the way, isn't it ironic - Min is the best for Rand, but in the long run they can't actually be together, especially + Aviendha and Elayne. She's the only one in the party who will get older and die of old age normally. Imagine - your 2 sister-wives are forever young and beautiful, as well as your husband, and there are hundreds of years ahead of them, while you become desperate as your 40th birthday comes... Moreover, your children may not be able to channel and therefore they'll soon look older then their father. Horrible!

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There was the topic last week of Nynaeve grabbing Rands' departing soul and putting in back in his or Moridins' body after his death... perhaps she does this to Lan instead, after he is killed at Tarwins' Gap... Rands' death and return will probably be a bit more involved, if he dies/returns at all...

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

This is all true. But it may happen before the LB is done, i.e. Rand dies, gets resurrected and then completes his task.

 

The rest of Nicola's foretelling says, "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

So, when Rand and his girls are on "the boat," the "great battle" is already done. I think that means Tarmon Gai'don is finished by this point. And some time might have passed for the Asha'man to equal the number of Aes Sedai (unless a lot of Sisters die during TG).

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getting slightly off topic with the Rand conversation but I have had theory for around 10 years that Rand would be killed and then summoned by the Horn to fight the DO as he would then be immortal and indestructable (how can a mortal man take on a being outside the pattern?)

 

Then after the battle Nyn will rip him out similar to what she earlier witnessed happen with Birg and Moggy.

 

On topic, I fully agree that Lan will not die. I am not sure who saves him, but somebody will...

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

getting slightly off topic with the Rand conversation but I have had theory for around 10 years that Rand would be killed and then summoned by the Horn to fight the DO as he would then be immortal and indestructable (how can a mortal man take on a being outside the pattern?)

 

I think he will need to re-seal the Dark One before he dies. If he dies first, the Dark One will have access to his soul, like Ishamael taunted oh so many books ago. Rand's soul in the hands of the Dark One is not a good thing. Unless it comes down to a tug-of-war, with the DO on one side, Nynaeve on the other, both trying to pull Rand's soul back. Maybe. But I'm thinking Rand will die after the DO is no longer free.

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I think he will need to re-seal the Dark One before he dies. If he dies first, the Dark One will have access to his soul, like Ishamael taunted oh so many books ago. Rand's soul in the hands of the Dark One is not a good thing. Unless it comes down to a tug-of-war, with the DO on one side, Nynaeve on the other, both trying to pull Rand's soul back. Maybe. But I'm thinking Rand will die after the DO is no longer free.

 

This goes back to an earlier point... if the DO has access to the waiting pool of souls... would rands soul be in that pool, as he would go to TAR when he dies... his soul would still be in use... imo, the DO cannot revive the heros of the horn...

 

nor, does he have the black cable on him, unlike what we've seen with other forsaken, i dont think you could choose(or tell) which soul you would be using, unless it was specifically marked out(the cable)...

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Yeah, I think the soul must be marked as the DO's in order for him to be able to grab it.

 

... And let's just forget "the great battle done" - there were enough (too many in fact! And sometimes not very polite, to my surprise) discussions on this on the forums and it makes my head wanna explode, so I tend to avoid the topic and just wait patiently for aMoL :)

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Yeah, I think the soul must be marked as the DO's in order for him to be able to grab it.

 

id say more specifically... it must be marked(linked to him via the black cable) in order for the DO to care to want to resurrect them... i mean... theres no point in the DO just resurrecting everybody... he'd only want to resurrect allies...

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