What is the point of the Seanchan?

[Rhettles]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:32 PM, Cigma said:

I never really got why Mat was so over the moon for Tuon in the first place.

 

If it hadn't been ordained that he would marry the daughter of the 9 moons, realistically from what we knew of Mat and his attractions, Tuon would have held absolutely no appeal at first glance. 

 

I actually don't mind the Seanchan, it's the Tuon romance that seems so manufactured and contrived.

It was BECAUSE of the Finns prediction that Mat took interest to begin.   But by all accounts Tuon is extremely intelligent, tough as nails, completely unflappable, well educated,  and many other things besides.  All very interesting stuff.   Also Mat may be a wild child, but he has a strong sense of integrity,  he is not the kind of man to cheat on his wife.    So once he knew that he was going to marry Tuon he would be proactively looking for things to admire about her as well.   They are both extremely deadly in their own way, both strategic thinkers capable at playing the long game, both adaptable and pragmatic.     Lots in common. ??

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, Rhettles said:

It was BECAUSE of the Finns prediction that Mat took interest to begin.   But by all accounts Tuon is extremely intelligent, tough as nails, completely unflappable, well educated,  and many other things besides.  All very interesting stuff.   Also Mat may be a wild child, but he has a strong sense of integrity,  he is not the kind of man to cheat on his wife.    So once he knew that he was going to marry Tuon he would be proactively looking for things to admire about her as well.   They are both extremely deadly in their own way, both strategic thinkers capable at playing the long game, both adaptable and pragmatic.     Lots in common. ??

That and the Pattern too.  Would Min, Elayne, Aviendah ever have shared any man 3 ways with any other women - had the Pattern not 'ordained' it?

 

Same for Mat and Tuon - no choice in the matter.  I agree that Mat wouldn't have looked at Tuon twice without the Pattern's or Finn's influence - she was short and slim and way too serious.  Mat chased care-free, buxom lasses that liked to laugh.  Tuon was none of those things, but it made sense in the context of the story.

[Scarloc99]

On 9/12/2016 at 9:56 PM, WOT1402 said:

It really is strange. All te other manipulations of the Forsaken are undone and righted at the end of the series. But not for Seanchan where te rot is left.

 

I ve read different things about this. Did RJ plan to write a book with Matt and Tuon. I saw a few quotes saying he wasn't going do books with the same characters or even same world.

 

It felt really odd that plot points set up in te second book regarding the Seanchan never amounted to anything since only Tuon learned about the lies and decided to stay the course. Because she's evil.

 

If he did then my assumption is that people would find out that Tuon is a channeled and use that to justify deposing her. Which would compel Tuon, along with Matts influence, into changing her mind.

Tuon isn't evil, in fact the Seanchan are not inherently evil, they have a different way of existing and yes they way they use Channellers could be considered immoral, but, to the Seanchan including the channellers, it is just the way it is. 

 

Changing this, given the politics of the empire and the way the establishment would rise up. Not to mention the upheaval the secret would create Tuon made a political decision to maintain the status quo for the final battle. I imagine that moving forward she would then begin the slow process of changing Seanchan law and culture but you are looking at probably generations of work to undo all that has been put in place. 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/6/2021 at 4:02 PM, DojoToad said:

That and the Pattern too.  Would Min, Elayne, Aviendah ever have shared any man 3 ways with any other women - had the Pattern not 'ordained' it?

 

Same for Mat and Tuon - no choice in the matter.  I agree that Mat wouldn't have looked at Tuon twice without the Pattern's or Finn's influence - she was short and slim and way too serious.  Mat chased care-free, buxom lasses that liked to laugh.  Tuon was none of those things, but it made sense in the context of the story.

Aviendah would have done, it is part of her societies culture. 

[Helz]

I very much disliked how their story line did not resolve well but I did like how their society justified utilitarianism in the world. Evils were committed to individuals but they were justified by the structure of society overall limiting suffering. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Helz said:

I very much disliked how their story line did not resolve well but I did like how their society justified utilitarianism in the world. Evils were committed to individuals but they were justified by the structure of society overall limiting suffering. 

Robert Jordan would maybe have continued this thread, if not as story but in Q and A's and in essays and descriptions online. I doubt anyone will pick up this mantle and that is ok, it is fine to leave story threads open to our own interpretation and ideas in our heads. 

[Helz]

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Robert Jordan would maybe have continued this thread, if not as story but in Q and A's and in essays and descriptions online. I doubt anyone will pick up this mantle and that is ok, it is fine to leave story threads open to our own interpretation and ideas in our heads. 

I just think about it in terms of their ideology. When the world was sliding towards its end the lands controlled by the Seanchan had maintained public order in spite of the evils done to individuals. It could be argued that less overall suffering occurred.

 

Maybe that interpretation is just in my head but as far as sociological structures I like that it was implemented in the books.

[Scarloc99]

6 minutes ago, Helz said:

I just think about it in terms of their ideology. When the world was sliding towards its end the lands controlled by the Seanchan had maintained public order in spite of the evils done to individuals. It could be argued that less overall suffering occurred.

 

Maybe that interpretation is just in my head but as far as sociological structures I like that it was implemented in the books.

I mean the seanchan are in the middle of a civil war after Semirhage massacres the royal family so they have lost control at home. 

[Helz]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean the seanchan are in the middle of a civil war after Semirhage massacres the royal family so they have lost control at home. 

That is certainly of note but setting aside pragmatism the philosophy of supporting the structure of a society over its individuals is an ethical model of value. I genuinely liked that each culture was well grounded in established philosophy's in our world and although the Seachan were very crass in many respects and their story line did not play out well I felt that their existence covered a model of thought no other culture in the books did. They were very unique from their hardline transactional nature to their structured cast system and the overall eastern leaning honor system.

 

Something I personally love in life is being exposed to new lines of thought and ways of living which I have only been able to expose myself to through traveling. Its just nice to see so many models of life represented in books as opposed to championing a single ideology and way of living to me. 

[Scarloc99]

I look at this situation as being a reflection of the real world. The continent Rand is on is the west, a collection of nations that disagree, fight but can come together for a common goal. the Seanchan is akin to the USSR. This becomes even more obvious after Rand fixes the borders and makes the Aiel the United Nations Army maintaining the peace. 
 

As with the real world the large Seanchan nation can’t be defeated via conflict, instead exposing it to the “west” its ideals and thoughts, will slowly decay the negative aspects of its civilization. 
 

But I will also say as a neutral observer the Seanchan enslaving Aes Sedai, while being “manipulated” by the forsaken, is also the other half to the solution to what some in the world sees as a real problem. The Aes Sedai where considered too powerful and needed something put in place to manage and co from them stopping them from raising an army and going to war with the rest of the world, or worse breaking and going to war with each other causing mass collateral damage. Something that could have been very possible at any time. All it takes is one Amirilyan seat to decide she can rule the world better. So the Oaths are created, forcing the Aes Sedai to always act as advisors but never be able to wage war on normal people. The oaths are another form of slavery, one that is entered into willingly. 
 

The Seanchan go a different route, in order to stop channellers causing that kind of death and destruction, and remember the Seanchan lands had chanellers but no formal structure to control, guide or set the rules in place for them, they enslave them. But it is also mentioned throughout the books that some channelers seek out this enslavement seeing it as a way to help prevent them causing harm like the oath rod it is a more direct form of slavery but one that some enter willingly. 
 

This kind of embedded psychological conditioning can not and should not be solved with a few paragraphs. In order to solve the Seanchan issue Mat and Tuon will need to undo centuries of ingrained embedded cultural thinking, they will need to come up with an alternative to the slavery in order to help the people feel “safe” when they release all these channelers out into the world, they will need to handle the side effect of some of those channelers going rogue and taking there anger out on the population. 
 

Alongside this will be the political upheaval as those who’s position in society is defined by the current status quo fight back, politically and militarily. But there are also the normal blood games of Seanchan politics, Mat gets a sense of that at even the last battle where his success as a general simply puts a bigger cross on his back. 
 

Changing Seanchan society to that extent may well fracture the Seanchan lands, leading, much as the breakup of the USSR did, to civil wars, economic upheaval and , eventually a desire to return back to the authoritarian times of the past where people where safe. This story will take generations to tell because when Mat and Tuon die the real fight will begin to maintain their legacy. 

[Kat_152]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:32 AM, Cigma said:

I never really got why Mat was so over the moon for Tuon in the first place.

 

If it hadn't been ordained that he would marry the daughter of the 9 moons, realistically from what we knew of Mat and his attractions, Tuon would have held absolutely no appeal at first glance. 

 

I actually don't mind the Seanchan, it's the Tuon romance that seems so manufactured and contrived.

Was he over the moon about her?  From what I remember, the was told he would marry the daughter of the nine moons, and when he realized it was Tuon, and he claimed she was his wife 3 times.  Then he figured he aut to get to know his future wife.  I don't remember if he ever developed feelings or not, but if I remember correctly, he wasn't "over the moon" about her at all when he first met her.  I could be wrong though.

[muddasssir]

ok people calm down. There are two reasons that Seanchan didn't get the closure. First was the death of RJ, he would have incorporated it in his build up and we saw the scene where Mat asks The great king to o talk to Tuon. I mean, I have been one of the huge critic of BS and way he handled the story, but i  think he may have been overwhelmed by everything else that was happening in the story. remember before the veins of gold he goes to Tanchico and thinks about destroying Seanchan. So RJ definitely had something in mind for Seanchan. 

 

Second reason was mentioned somewhere above that he wanted to do out rigger novels on Mat and Tuon after finishing the main story. 10 - 20 years after the last battle. So my guess is that he would have set up those books in that scene and would have followed up in the novels. as for not ever returning to wot characters. RJ kept making these declarations and kept backing out of them. SO BS just mentioned it in passing and let it go as he had no direction from RJ as to which way he wanted to go with it. therfore, the plot remained un resolved.

 

[Andra]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:59 PM, Kat_152 said:

Was he over the moon about her?  From what I remember, the was told he would marry the daughter of the nine moons, and when he realized it was Tuon, and he claimed she was his wife 3 times.  Then he figured he aut to get to know his future wife.  I don't remember if he ever developed feelings or not, but if I remember correctly, he wasn't "over the moon" about her at all when he first met her.  I could be wrong though.

I don't think the question was about whether he was over the moon about her when they first met, but about whether he became so by the end.  And he certainly did.  Probably by the time he let her go back to Ebou Dar with her commander (it was part of why he agreed - because he could swear to see her safe).  But definitely by the end.

We are told that marriage among the High Blood has nothing to do with love, but he couldn't leave it at that.  He absolutely loved her by then.

[Andra]

On 10/6/2021 at 9:02 AM, DojoToad said:

That and the Pattern too.  Would Min, Elayne, Aviendah ever have shared any man 3 ways with any other women - had the Pattern not 'ordained' it?

 

Same for Mat and Tuon - no choice in the matter.  I agree that Mat wouldn't have looked at Tuon twice without the Pattern's or Finn's influence - she was short and slim and way too serious.  Mat chased care-free, buxom lasses that liked to laugh.  Tuon was none of those things, but it made sense in the context of the story.

I disagree on what interest he might have had in her without the Finns' influence.  At least, on whether it depended on knowing they were fated to marry.  From almost the moment they met, he kept finding himsef thinking aout her.  And her eyes.

 

It certainly didn't stop him from anything else, but she was in his head from the beginning.

[rowdie]

The more I read the series (ten + times) the more I LIKE the Seanchan and their culture.  I can see why they leash those women who channel!!  Of course I'm the guy that roots for the bad guys a lot.   I'm no darkfriend though!

[churchill83]

I have to say I am in Laccy's camp. I tolerated the Seanchan in the beginning, until I read for the first time Aviendha's dream chapter (for me one of the best chapters in the series). After that I started to hate them, and grew worse with the ending of the last book. I understand why RJ did it, but its a stomach thing.  It could also be because I also always associated them to the USSR, as someone higher up mentioned. RJ did an excellent job in creating a culture that shows the point of view of the colective good over the individual.

 

[Spiritweaver1]

A very interesting thread.  Especially those posters who characterize the Seanchan culture as "evil".  My question to them would be what is your definition of evil?  Perhaps it is like porn, you know it when you see/read it?  Do we all agree what is "evil"?  One of the things I really love about WoT is RJ's depiction of the various cultures, Seanchan culture in particular has always fascinated me.  First of all you have a fine example of a culture which dehumanizes the "other".  The other being channelers in the Seanchan's case.  This tendency is as old as humanity.  It is a tried and true tactic used to unite "us" against "them".  In the case of the Seanchan they don't slaughter the other which is the usual human response.   They put them to work for the benefit of the imperial family which, of course is where stability for the society comes from.  

 

Another facet of RJ's portrayal of the Seanchan society is that individuals could get promoted to higher levels of the "blood"  based on merit.  That keeps incentive and loyalty to the system.   It's why American's tolerate a tax system that is ridiculously unbalanced.  The poorest McDonalds fry cook dreams of winning the lottery and taking his/her place at the top of the pyramid and we wouldn't want any  significant taxes on that.  

 

RJ solved a problem with real life monarchies where the ruler is birth order based.  The empress encourages strife and battle amongst her many offspring so that the most competent and deadly is left standing.  This lowers the odds that the family will lose power due to incompetence.  

 

Finally on the topic of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, a utilitarian philosophical perspective proposed by Spock.  The Seanchan, for all the blood and pain at the top of the system, improve the lives of those they conquered in terms of safety and security.  It provides us a contrast with American society where the rights of the individual are all important. And there is no safety and security.  Your kids can be shot in school at any time.  Or you can lose your job and become homeless who are the "others" in a society where money is king.  Now a debate about this is outside the scope  of this site.  Suffice it to say that time will tell if trying to have a densely populated world where any individual has the right do do whatever they please regardless of impact to others is the best choice of systems.  

 

 

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

RJ solved a problem with real life monarchies where the ruler is birth order based.  The empress encourages strife and battle amongst her many offspring so that the most competent and deadly is left standing.  This lowers the odds that the family will lose power due to incompetence.  

Something else about this - especially when contrasted with Daes Dae'mar - is the idea that what makes someone rise to the top may or may not have anything to do with doing a good job once they get there.  But then it's a problem with any form of government, even a representative democracy.

 

What wins the game of houses doesn't necessarily make a good ruler.  What wins elections doesn't either.  Just like being next in line for the throne by birth doesn't.

 

But they're all attempts to come up with a system that does just that.

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Something else about this - especially when contrasted with Daes Dae'mar - is the idea that what makes someone rise to the top may or may not have anything to do with doing a good job once they get there.  But then it's a problem with any form of government, even a representative democracy.

 

What wins the game of houses doesn't necessarily make a good ruler.  What wins elections doesn't either.  Just like being next in line for the throne by birth doesn't.

 

But they're all attempts to come up with a system that does just that.

Yeah that's the problem.   Another problem is to define what is a good job is.  Depending on whether you are community minded or individualistic that answer will vary.  RJ covered several although the story didn't dive into it much.  I was also intrigued by Arad Doman.  There the merchants choose the ruler from the noble houses.  Presumably the person who will bring them the most profits.  Remind anyone about how things work in many so called democracies today?

[BookLover]

I am only in book four; however, I have learned in life our greatest teacher is adversity, which the Seanchan represent to me. So far I am seeing the characters struggle so far with these global lessons we all deal with:

1. Forgiving

2. Releasing with love

3. Living by the Golden Rule or do no harm

4. Never inhibiting free will.

 

Remember, I am a new to your forum so please be kind, but I like a good debate. ?

[Stedding Tofu]

On 12/17/2021 at 9:07 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I look at this situation as being a reflection of the real world. The continent Rand is on is the west, a collection of nations that disagree, fight but can come together for a common goal. the Seanchan is akin to the USSR. This becomes even more obvious after Rand fixes the borders and makes the Aiel the United Nations Army maintaining the peace. 
 

As with the real world the large Seanchan nation can’t be defeated via conflict, instead exposing it to the “west” its ideals and thoughts, will slowly decay the negative aspects of its civilization.

 

This nails it for me.  To continue the analogy a bit, The Shadow is Nazi Germany and must be defeated at all costs, even if the map of Randland/Europe must be carved up between the nations and the Seanchan, even if people made da'covale or women made damane must be abandoned to their fate.

 

We are meant to rebel at this notion but it's realistic, the cultures are too different and the power structure the Seanchan have developed rests too heavily on damane / da'covale for them to even consider change.  They are presented as good rulers who administer justice fairly and keep society functioning smoothly with everyone in their proper place: it's an authoritarian's dream state, everyone in their proper place and loyal to the regime.  As with any authoritarian state those who don't toe the line treatment is harsh, like the Seafolk breaking rocks in the Rahad for refusing the oaths or those made da'covale for whatever offence.  If you don't fall foul of the system, fall into one of the proscribed categories - oath breakers, marath'damane - or get caught up to no good by The Seekers/Listeners, the Empire's secret police, life is pretty safe and conditions stable.  Like I said, an authoritarian's dream state.

 

The problem with the Seanchan is that they consider themselves the rightful rulers of Randland, not  foreign conquerors, even though Hawkwing was himself a conqueror whose empire of short duration collapsed after his death well over a thousand years ago.  It's a preposterous ideology that they have constructed but it reinforces the absolute authority of the Empress over both continents and opens opportunities for personal advancement and gain to those from Seanchan, not least the sul'dam, but those at every level of society, including the droves of farmer-settlers Mat sees fanning out from Ebou Dar.  It's classic imperialism and colonisation but with the false argument that the legal right and moral high ground belongs with the invader.  Tuon considers every individual her subject and every ruler a usurper: all can be dispossessed, disinherited or made property with a simple pronouncement from her.

 

Why would they ever abandon this ideology and this system unless militarily defeated?  They gained Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon and half of Toman Head using an expeditionary force.  The Armies of Randland were pulverized during Tarmon Gai'don and The Ever Victorious Army was held in reserve until the coup de grace on The Field of Merrilor so is largely intact while they have garnered a large crop of damane from Aes Sedai, Aiel Wise Ones, Seafolk Windfinders and every village woman, merchant or little old lady who has a spark of The Power in her.  Aviendha saw in Rhuidean the future of the Aiel and Randland if they went toe to toe with this imperial juggernaut and wisely advocated for The Dragon's Peace.

 

It's a precarious peace with a bleak future outlined if it comes to conflict so is there any hope?  I can see why RJ may have planned a follow up with Mat and Tuon to (hopefully) flesh this out somewhat because the main series is all doom and gloom.  The Seanchan were only stopped by The Horn of Valere or Rand wielding callandor - and in both cases these were only setbacks.  The apparent chink in the Seanchan armour - the ability of sul'dam to learn to channel - is exposed as early as TGH but rather than using this to crack open the Seanchan self certainty and undermine their ideology and the power that the whole system rests on this is quietly run into the sand.  Tuon is in denial that her ability means that maybe she should regard her pet damane as kindred spirits or at least as human beings, the sul'dam and damane who escape Ebou Dar or are captured in the campaign Rand wages in the Venir mountains are not used to develop a plan or an argument against the system.

 

So we're left with the likelihood of a cold war in Randland, sul'dams poaching damane across the borders and claiming they strayed into Seanchan territory, and the hope that The Dragon's Peace holds long enough for the Seanchan to gradually come to see the marath'damane as something not as terrible as they have been led to believe.  Of course a few black ajah or a dreadlord or two could scupper that but it's a hope.  But what does that achieve in itself?  Realising that undermines their military effectiveness and seems a profound change that would shake their self confidence and their society significantly.  They have too vested an interest in avoiding this.  Just as they do in retaining da'covle and in keeping their claim over the entirety of Randland. 

 

Tuon's not one for letting go or acknowledging the truth about her self given the pariah status of channelers in the Empire so I don't see how this improves except over a very long stretch of time.  My feel on first reading was that the Seanchan were made too powerful militarily and this was exacerbated by their strong position after The Field of Merrilor.  After re-reading I feel the same.  They're entrenched and would hold the whip hand in any negotiations or military conflict.  Best case scenario is they need to spend a long time recovering Seanchan but if they do that aren't we back to where the imperial juggernaut started?  So I'm left hoping they reform themselves and change their beliefs and practices against all reasonable expectation that they would do so.   Really it's the start of The Cold War and there's no guarantee of the outcome.