Comment about Asmo

[Mathias]

I am reposting my comment from Egwene's Asmo thread - with 124 pages and a thousand-something posts - because I would like to hear your thoughts and I don't want it to get lost in the mish-mash.

 

From the Asmo Poll Thread:

 

"This is something I never gave much thought to, but just reading over the thread a few things came to mind.

 

Asmo was totally surprised by whoever it was. As someone said, if it were one of the other Forsaken he would have tried to talk his way out of it, or at least not been totally surprised.

 

I have to admit, initially when I read the passage my gut reaction was that it was Lanfear. There are a lot of reasons why it "couldn't" be her, but one thing occurred to me as a result of reading the thread about "why wasn't lanfear spared." Someone in that thread mentioned wishes, or something to that effect. Could Lanfear have gone through the doorway, met with some Finns, asked for a chance to kill Asmo, neglected to ask for a way out of Finnland, had her wish granted, and then been killed by the Finns?

 

That would be a potential explanation for why Asmo was so surprised. If you saw someone you thought was dead, and couldn't possibly be there, your reaction might be the same as his was, espically if you realized in that instant that you were about to die."

[Guest Barmacral]

I know the asmo thread seems intimidating, but everyone's posts seem to be very well read and responded to. So unless you posted your comment a few pages back on the thread, don't worry, it should see some responses.

[Mathias]

That's fine. You can consider this a new, almost unrelated thread if you wish.

 

Also, since you took the time to read it, do you have any thoughts on the comment?

[Guest Abaddon]

Seems like it could be possible, it certainly makes sense with the way you have rationalized it.

[Mathias]

Finally a reply! Thanks Abaddon. I'm glad you can see it as a possibility.

[Guest Abaddon]

Personally i always wished asmodean had lived, you know the great bard of the dragon reborn, creating masterpeices concerning his deeds, riding into battle at rand's side to finally spite the chosen, and gain that recognition for being a great musician that he always yearned for.

[Mathias]

I agree, I think Asmo got a bum deal. He's kind of one of those "bad guys" who, even though they are supposed to be horrible people, you kind of still like.

[Guest Barmacral]

I don't actually, I like to read all the Asmo theories, but I avoid talking about it like the plague. I know who I think killed him, and thats good enough for me.

[Mathias]

Something else just occurred to me:

 

I can't recall, did anyone ever specifically threaten Asmo with death (other than Rand, of course), or mention that they wanted him dead? It would strike me as a good place to start if, in fact, Asmo received death threats, either directly or indirectly, from other characters and a list could be compiled.

[Mathias]

I don't actually' date=' I like to read all the Asmo theories, but I avoid talking about it like the plague. I know who I think killed him, and thats good enough for me.[/quote']

 

So, who do you think killed him, and why? I understand you avoid talking about it, maybe because it's pretty much talked into the ground, as I mentioned, I don't give much thought to it myself, but anything constructive you might add to the discussion would be appreciated.

[Cybertrolloc]

Lanfear before the fact. After the fact...I think it's crossed the mind of most Forsaken if they think about him: sure I'd have killed him, but it'd be worth knowing who did... Sammael says as much, Bathangar, Dem I think, collect 'em all!

[Mathias]

Cybertrolloc, you hit on exactly what I was shooting for. If Lanfear said something to that effect, espically before Asmo's actual demise, it would be possible that, when in Finnland and faced with having requests granted, she felt like following through on her previous threat. I was looking for stated motive (specifically for Lanfear, and specifically prior to the actual act), and Cybertrolloc, I appreciate you providing that.

[Cybertrolloc]

Slow down there ;)

 

Logically, Lanfear has multiple times more reasons to bump off Asmo than anyone else in the series, and each of her reasons are probably a better motive than we can be sure of for any other character (especially including RJ revelations). The problem is she's a nutcase, particularly so the day of the murder. Even if Asmo is the first person she'd bumped into, why would she stop with just him?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry ... I just don't see a motive for Lanfear to kill Asmodean. What does it gain for her? She of all people knows exactly how restrained he is. She put him in that position. He is absolutely no threat to her. What does she gain from killing him?

 

Graendal at least rids al'Thor of a teacher she didn't want him to have, who is making him more dangerous. Lanfear is the one who chained Asmodean to be Rand's teacher.

 

Now, Lanfear might kill him as an aside if he got in her way. But that doesn't fit the scene at all.

 

If Lanfear was after anyone, it would have been Rand al'Thor. Possibly .... possibly Aviendha or Egwene ... but Aviendha was just yards away when Asmodean was killed. Why wouldn't Lanfear go after her next?

 

And all of this hinges on her getting out of 'finn-land, which we have no external reason to believe she did, and several external reasons to believe she didn't.

 

It. Just. Doesn't. Work.

[Mathias]

Slow down there ;)

 

Easy there tiger.

 

Even if Asmo is the first person she'd bumped into' date=' why would she stop with just him?[/quote']

 

That is a good question, however, as we saw with Mat, the Finns (1) can grant requests, and (2) mention asking for a way out. So it is possible that for some reason Lanfear was upset with Asmo and wanted to kill him. We also saw with Mat that if one isn't totally aware that they are in Finnland, and consequently make statements that the Finns are taking as "requests" just in the normal course of conversation, it can have unintended consequences. So it is possible that Lanfear was talking to herself, she mentioned having an opportunity to kill Asmo, made two other comments that the Finns interpreted as "requests," was given a window by the Finns to kill Asmo, and then brought back to Finnland.

 

 

"I'm sorry ... I just don't see a motive for Lanfear to kill Asmodean. What does it gain for her? She of all people knows exactly how restrained he is. She put him in that position. He is absolutely no threat to her. What does she gain from killing him?..."

 

"...If Lanfear was after anyone' date=' it would have been Rand al'Thor. Possibly .... possibly Aviendha or Egwene ... but Aviendha was just yards away when Asmodean was killed. Why wouldn't Lanfear go after her next?"

[/quote']

 

That is a good question too, and that is why I wanted to know about any expressly stated motives prior to the murder. Going by what Cybertrolloc said, and I imagine it can be found in the text (I seem to remember Lanfear saying something about it), she had a stated motive. The question is, and I agree with both you, Robert, and Cybertrolloc, "Why would she kill Asmo when she could have gone after Rand, or someone else?" That point is significant and it is something that bears further examination. The only thing that immediately comes to mind is that in, I think tFoH, in the Waste, before she binds Asmo for Rand, etc. etc., doesn't she say something to the effect of "the only reason I'm doing this is so LTT has someone to teach him...", with the express implication that if she weren't binding Asmo to provide a teacher that she would kill him? (I should make the comment that I do not have the books in front of me at the moment, so I am relying on my, and all of your, memories and information at this point.)

 

"...And all of this hinges on her getting out of 'finn-land' date=' which we have no external reason to believe she did, and several external reasons to believe she didn't."[/quote']

 

I would like to disguss this point too, but at this juncture would like to stick with the motive. I do not want to get too far afield. I want to approach this step-by-step. However, if you have them at your fingertips (ie. you don't have to go digging through book after book), can you point out some of the "external reasons to believe she didn't"?

 

Both of your help, and anyone else who wishes to chime in's help, in this matter is greatly appreciated.

[Cybertrolloc]

I'm sorry ... I just don't see a motive for Lanfear to kill Asmodean. What does it gain for her? She of all people knows exactly how restrained he is. She put him in that position. He is absolutely no threat to her. What does she gain from killing him?

♥ Removes a boatload of evidence for her (logical):

- She said that she would face the DO with Rand in front of him.

- She twisted his arm to have him teach Rand. (This could be a pro-chaos thing' date=' but I don't think the DO would take this lightly).

 

♥ Revenge for the docks. (From her PoV, these insects defeated [i']her[/i]!)

 

♥ His showing up in Rand's dream.

 

Can't see a motive? I can't see a better collection of motives and can't think of any single motive better than the first ♥, but Lanfear isn't likely to act on that, especially an angry and spurned Lanfear. That Sammael, etc...figured out what she was up to anyway is kinda beside the point. This is Lanfear we're talking about.

[Mathias]

Let's try to discuss this as civilly as possible. I would rather all work together to try and figure this out rather than getting upset. I understand that people have strong opinions about this subject, that is why I wanted to try and work together to get to the bottom of it, and I think that can be accomplished.

 

That said, I appreciate your comments, Cybertrolloc, in relation to possible motives for Lanfear. I also think that almost anyone had a motive to kill Asmo - espically the other Forsaken. (Of course, all of the Forsaken had motives for killing each other, ie. who would be Nae'blis, but Asmo is the main focus.) All the more reason to try and find specific areas in the book where Asmo was specifically threatened.

 

Also, to back up comments, it might be nice to try and tie them in as closely as possible with actual passages in the book so as to provide a basis. I am trying to stay as far away from speculation as is possible, or practical, with a mystery such as this.

 

Cybertrolloc, or anyone else, what about my comment regarding Lanfear and Asmo's relationship in the Waste? Did it in fact happen as I remember it? As I understood it, Asmo was on thin ice with Lanfear as it was and the only reason she left him alive was to teach Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

She said that she would face the DO with Rand in front of him.

 

And of course, all the Forsaken are going to trust a known traitor. Who is she afraid he's going to tell?

 

She twisted his arm to have him teach Rand.

 

See above.

 

Revenge for the docks.

 

How was Asmodean involved in that? Thats a motive to kill:

 

Rand

Moiraine

Aviendha

or maybe Egwene

 

His showing up in Rand's dream.

 

If she was going to kill him for that, she'd have done it months before.

 

This is Lanfear we're talking about.

 

Exactly. Obsessed, angry, and spurned. She'd be coming after Rand or Aviendha, not Asmodean, assuming (and it's a big assumption) that she even got the chance.

[Hannah Banana]

Let's try to discuss this as civilly as possible. I would rather all work together to try and figure this out rather than getting upset. I understand that people have strong opinions about this subject' date=' that is why I wanted to try and work together to get to the bottom of it, and I think that can be accomplished.[/quote']

 

Mathias = Gray Ajah

[Cybertrolloc]

And of course' date=' all the Forsaken are going to trust a known traitor. Who is she afraid he's going to tell?[/quote']

Remember, it's a work of fiction. Torture gets you reliable info in WoT world, and besides compulsion is enough anyway and there's probably terangreal that'll do that (i.e. Crystal Throne). Asmo has a first hand account of Lanfear planning things the DO won't take lightly. This is a strong motive, but not a motive for the nutcase that is Lanfear.

 

The downside is as Lanfear says to Kadere, she's been involved with other matters and hasn't been paying attention lately. I don't think we have any other idea of what else Lanfear could have been up to, especially what would take precedence in general and for her besides Rand. Nor is there any indication that evidence of treason is important to Lanfear... So my point is for anyone else this would be motive, not for Lanfear.

 

The only other motive that plays out well for the Dark in Asmo dying at this time is the introduction of Mazrim Taim a month later. Though this is moot given LTT's surfacing in Rand's head too (which the Dark may or may not have known about then).

[RobertAlexWillis]

This is a strong motive, but not a motive for the nutcase that is Lanfear.

 

and

 

So my point is for anyone else this would be motive, not for Lanfear.

 

Then why are we disagreeing? Lanfear had no motive. The fact that someone else in her position might consider some of those things as motives is irrelevant because we're not talking about someone else.

[Beowolf]

^ Whatever you say, Lanfear did have a motive. It's just that she kind of had a much better motive to kill someone else(esspecially Aviendha) instead of Asmo. But she had a motive, I tell you! :D