Beyond the Wall - Game Thread - GAME OVER

[Lenlo]

 

Thats not explaining how the previous comments were reaching. Its also not explaining the mechanics you apparently know about. Its also not explaining the plethora of reasons, outside of his wolfiness, your trying to use to disprove his claim.

 

I never said Dice was town. I never even said he was towny. What im saying is, does that mean he is lying about a view on you?

That wasn't my response to the "reaching" question.

 

What reasons am I trying to use to disprove his claim beyond explaining why he's been incredibly wolfy all game? He claimed Mason in a game with an unconventional Mason. Flea will either support or deny this. It's not defensive to consider the implications of the former.

 

Like, it hasn't even happened yet.

 

To the last bit, do you think Dice is a wolf role cop who peeked me a wolf in a sort of multiball set-up?

 

Your attempting to use "complex setups" and "mechanics" to disprove his role. What do you know about them?

 

He claimed Mason in a game with a flipped mason

 

Its entirely possible he is Shad. as I said, I never said he was town. I said he didnt have to be lying about viewing you.

[Shad_]

Here, let's go through his responses to me one by one. Anyone who is a villager in this game ought to be able to read through it and tell me what they do and do not agree with. Posting in parts as I get to it.

 

This is what I quoted at Dice like 100 times:

 

 

 

wanna bet?? you dont wanna get viewed?? dont go trying to set up the next days lynch on the actual cop.

 

2 i told you VERBATIM i am NEVER mafia this game.

Ok so, address any of the issues I raised with you that you've been avoiding for the past 48 hours in favor of asking everyone what they will do when Zander flips town?

 

lol SK though

 

 

This is what he finally came back with:

 

i already answered you

 

I never called him town. I did say that i agreed celste sounded like frustrated town but thats as close as i got.

 

I never made an actual read on that slot. People were whinging BECAUSE i wouldnt.

 

 

 

So would you like to requote that anymore Shad Outted Scum??

These were the quotes I pulled:

 

 

 

 

 

and I agree with sili that if you thought z was a wolf why the hesitation voting him? why give celeste time? I KNOW that doesnt always happen i subbed for hallia once i think it was her and was walking right into the lynch. like 4 hrs or something later im dead.

 

leaving my vote there

Your slot had already been peeked red in that game.

 

(What kind of jerk mod subs someone into a peeked wolf slot? )

 

I absolutely don't get the issue with giving a fresh sub time to contribute when we have 24 hours left on the clock anyway.

 

Honestly I don't get any of this.

 

Correct me if I'm tracking this wrong:

 

You think Zander is null at worst on his own merit, and you think the push on him is scummy so implicitly he's probably villa.

 

A player who had been pushing to lynch him now wants to reconsider and not rush the matter before giving the sub a chance.

 

This bothers you enough to progress from a suss to a locked vote.

 

Do you think Zander's a wolf now?

 

Like, I could see you thinking Sirren's post was a manner of testing the water to see if she could still push a lynch through now that a sub's come in, but her indecisive 'should I give it time or vote anyway?' approach isn't what you're taking issue with. Your issue is that she even considered backing off for a bit.

 

What I'm basically taking away from this is that you think Sirren is scummy for not encouraging a speed lynch on a player who you think is a villager. :???:

 

 

 

I don't know, I think Dice has been barking up the wrong tree quite a bit in this game and on the one hand it's usually a good look when he's off in left field doing his own thing, on the other it feels a little opportunistic. Like a matter of trying to defend hard without looking like you're defending hard by actually going after the people pushing the lynch instead of just defending.

 

/shrug

 

Kind of want to see a Z flip before I put too much thought into it.

im not actually defending zander you know. i havent given one reason why he is town. Im taking issue with lenlos thinking and a post of sirrens not people wanting to lynch zander

 

and to another question from u yeah i think you missed something. I quoted sirrens post and highlighted the whole planning bit when i voted her. Also said about since when does town have a plan? she responded to me after which i said i was leaving my vote

 

Red, I just don't see how you can have all of these reads revolving around the treatment of Zander and yet have no opinion on his slot at this point. I mean you've called multiple players scummy for their pushes on Zander. If you're a villager, you should think the slot is > rand town at this point even if you consider it null on its own merits, unless you think he was heavily bussed, which I assume you would have stated at this point. So defending him isn't a bad thing under these circumstances and I don't see why you'd deny it. If you're a wolf and Zander is a villager, I think you'd be pretty chill with letting his lynch go through. Neither is the case here. You're sort of distancing from him by insisting you don't have an opinion on him while still sussing the people who push him. That feels like a wolf defending a team mate. The fact that you're denying any sort of defense is part of the issue.

 

 

Blue, I did see you highlight a particular statement and I didn't really understand why at the time. You literally just said "Wanna tell me how town can carry on with what they were planning? Vote: Sirren". I took your next post as a follow-through, not a second point. If your an issue was specifically her use of the word "planning"... ok? I'll grant that you didn't change your reasoning mid-stride then, but it's weak to the point that I didn't even interpret it as one at the time.

 

I guess I've never been shy to call things as they are and it doesn't bother me when others do. Zander was the most likely person to be the D1 lynch at the time she posted. Calling it the "plan" is just stating reality and if anything demonstrates a lack of concern for how other players perceive you. That you don't see it this way isn't necessarily bothersome, though I wish you'd been more explicit, but it doesn't really resolve my concern about your second point--the whole business of town!Sirren should have just voted him and not waited for Celeste to start posting.

 

 

and yet again I didnt defend Zander. I attacked the people voting him for things they said way they seemed to be thinking. At some point are you going to understand that?

You keep restating this without addressing my issue. It doesn't make sense to have no thoughts on Z's slot when you've been sussing people for their approach to that slot.

 

Like, "man, a bunch of scummy people are making an opportunistic push to lynch Zander while he's afk. I think Zander's been heavily spewed null at this point."

 

A villager doesn't think that.

 

A villager doesn't have no thoughts on the slot at this point.

 

Do you understand my concern here?

 

 

 

 

And this was his glorious defense against it:

 

cant find the quote huh shad?

I said he was pretending my posts didn't exist. He replied with:

 

Nice spin. nice touch with quoting me out of context pages after too

 

That quote of mine is talking about the fact that i told Shad or Len to find me a quote where i said Zander was town. Shad just keeps reposting the same quotes at mne but not one that says i said zander was town

So basically, "no arguments against me are valid because I never said Zander was town" is his defense. :???: What does this have to do with anything? Seriously?

 

He's been rehashing this one-line defense all game. He's not even acknowledging any of the issues and calling it "spin" when I point this out. Anyone in their right mind ought to recognize this.

[Lenlo]

2 things Shad:

1) You accused him of calling Zander town. He said he didnt. You said he did. He asked for quotes. You never gave quotes that showed he called Zander town. Thats the defense. Stop being stupid, repetition doesnt make the opposite true.

2) Your still ignoring the mechanics and complex setup talk you mentioned. What do you know that I dont?

[Shad_]

Your attempting to use "complex setups" and "mechanics" to disprove his role. What do you know about them?

 

He claimed Mason in a game with a flipped mason

 

Its entirely possible he is Shad. as I said, I never said he was town. I said he didnt have to be lying about viewing you.

Red, no.  I am not doing this.  It is pretty obvious that I am not doing this.  I am attempting to present a large number of well-formed read-based arguments, none of which have been refuted by anyone to date, to prove that he is a wolf.  He could be a role cop lying about he peek.  He could be a mason.  I don't particularly care about these things from the perspective of convincing the village that he is a wolf, and I have never employed them to try and convince the village that he is a wolf.  I really don't need to, because he is a very obvious wolf.  I spent a very brief moment answering a question about Masons based on AJ's flip, and I wondered what it would mean about Flea if she supports the claim.  This is not a defense or an attempt at a defense.  This is proactive game solving based on the 99% probability that Dice flips wolf.

 

I'm not even sure what your point is in emphasizing that he claimed mason in a game with a known mason.  You yourself expressed confusion over this:

 

 

 

Lenlo feels a bit Lost itt.

Im overwhelmed with things to think about. Mason Role Cop? Mason Survivor Jester? SKs? Wolves? 3 kills in a night?

 

But you seem to be taking issue all of a sudden at my brief aside attempting to hash out some of the possibilities and concluding that it's too complex to really draw a clear conclusion.

[Lenlo]

There are a lot of other angles too, like Dice was a mason with AJ and since nothing's going to reveal that he told a partner to claim it so when Dice flips a dirty Mason we'll all assume the partner is Jester and leave them alive.

 

The mechanics of this game allow for a complexity of claim shenanigans that I'm kind of hesitant to even try to parse out.

What mechanics of this game do you know about, that apparently allow for complexity? We KNOW for a fact there is a mason in this game, unless Darthe comes back and says that was a mistake in the coroner.

 

The first line is like a setup to discount Princess if she backs up Dices claim. Its a "Well even if she backs it up, what are the odds shes lying and is just a jester or something? I mean cmooooon."

 

The second one, more mechanics. 

 

Im taking issue Shad, in that your not just going "These are reasons Dice is wolf, im done", your going out of your way to find every possible reason why Dices claim makes him wolf. Your not even disputing whether or not his view is real, just "Hes a wolf"

 

Im waiting for Princess. Your both 50/50 in my book till she gets here.

There are a lot of other angles too, like Dice was a mason with AJ and since nothing's going to reveal that he told a partner to claim it so when Dice flips a dirty Mason we'll all assume the partner is Jester and leave them alive.

 

The mechanics of this game allow for a complexity of claim shenanigans that I'm kind of hesitant to even try to parse out.

What mechanics of this game do you know about?

[Shad_]

2 things Shad:

1) You accused him of calling Zander town. He said he didnt. You said he did. He asked for quotes. You never gave quotes that showed he called Zander town. Thats the defense. Stop being stupid, repetition doesnt make the opposite true.

2) Your still ignoring the mechanics and complex setup talk you mentioned. What do you know that I dont?

Red, quote where I did this.  Or bother to actually read my posts that you agreed with D1 in which my prime beef with him was the fact that he stated he had no read on Zander.

 

Blue, quote and explain your issue or address my answer to it.  You just keep stating this.

 

You can keep yelling if you like, but I sort of think you know you're just spouting nonsense at this point.  It's something you tend to do when you get carried away as a wolf.  You were pretty convincingly villa D1 though, so it's weird.  If I suggest I think you might have been recruited over night you'll probably either accuse me of TMI or spin this as my 'defense' against Dice, as that's been your approach so far tonight.  Well, we'll let the villa weigh in on it when it's not just the two of us.

[Shad_]

 

There are a lot of other angles too, like Dice was a mason with AJ and since nothing's going to reveal that he told a partner to claim it so when Dice flips a dirty Mason we'll all assume the partner is Jester and leave them alive.

 

The mechanics of this game allow for a complexity of claim shenanigans that I'm kind of hesitant to even try to parse out.

What mechanics of this game do you know about?

 

I know what has flipped, including non-town Masons and Jesters, hence making this statement after a discussion of non-town Masons and Jesters.  This isn't rocket science.

[Lenlo]

My god, your even trying to bring recruitment into this now. Your overcomplicating everything.

 

Blue, I have quoted and explained it. I saw your answer. I think its lacking.

 

Red, As I said,  I never said I thought Dice was town. Why should I bother to read posts from D1 when we are not talking about D1. We are talking about right now. An unCCed Role Cop claim, with a mason to back it up. All youve done is prep to discredit Princess before she even comes in here to weigh in. Im yelling am I? Its yelling to ask you to address problems and inconsistencies in your argument? And now your even trying to say im a wolf, because I dont immediatly hope on with you and vote Dice? Yes you were towny D1. So was AJ. 

 

Your twisting my words and now your starting to try to discredit one of the towniest people in the game, all because you dont like that my brain works differently then yours. All because I dont immediately follow your lead and lynch Dice.

 

Ive said it before, ill say it again. Im waiting for princess.

[Lenlo]

Zander was really scummy because he was a SK and he treated the slot like a wolf and he's been an obvious wolf lately.

 

Dice assumed Zander was a villager and talked about him like he was guaranteed to flip town because Dice is mafia and assumed Zander would flip town.  Like, he did this exact same thing with Sooh with the same out-of-game focus last time he randed wolf.  I thought it might be hard defending a team mate because Zander looked awful independently, but the pieces fit.

Right here your saying Dice said Zander was villager. Here you say Dice said Zander was guarnteed to flip town, or basically the same.

 

None of those are represented in the quotes you gave.

[dicetosser1]

 

 

2 things Shad:
1) You accused him of calling Zander town. He said he didnt. You said he did. He asked for quotes. You never gave quotes that showed he called Zander town. Thats the defense. Stop being stupid, repetition doesnt make the opposite true.
2) Your still ignoring the mechanics and complex setup talk you mentioned. What do you know that I dont?

Red, quote where I did this.  Or bother to actually read my posts that you agreed with D1 in which my prime beef with him was the fact that he stated he had no read on Zander.

 

Blue, quote and explain your issue or address my answer to it.  You just keep stating this.

 

You can keep yelling if you like, but I sort of think you know you're just spouting nonsense at this point.  It's something you tend to do when you get carried away as a wolf.  You were pretty convincingly villa D1 though, so it's weird.  If I suggest I think you might have been recruited over night you'll probably either accuse me of TMI or spin this as my 'defense' against Dice, as that's been your approach so far tonight.  Well, we'll let the villa weigh in on it when it's not just the two of us.

 

 

 

 

 

Zander was really scummy because he was a SK and he treated the slot like a wolf and he's been an obvious wolf lately.

 

Dice assumed Zander was a villager and talked about him like he was guaranteed to flip town because Dice is mafia and assumed Zander would flip town.  Like, he did this exact same thing with Sooh with the same out-of-game focus last time he randed wolf.  I thought it might be hard defending a team mate because Zander looked awful independently, but the pieces fit.

 

Answer to Red below

 

 

 

So my last mafia read comes out and claims one of my town reads is scum. Oh, and he's conveniently a mason, but only after a mason has flipped. And this is only after he's getting speedlynched. 

 

[v]Dice[/v]

 

I mean, c'mon. This attempt to save his own skin is laughable.

 

You outting yourself itt are you snow?  

 

 

See, then Jon comes in and votes Dice.  I don't think that makes me feel comfortable.

 

Doesnt make you feel comfy about who?

 

 

Zander was really scummy because he was a SK and he treated the slot like a wolf and he's been an obvious wolf lately.

 

Dice assumed Zander was a villager and talked about him like he was guaranteed to flip town because Dice is mafia and assumed Zander would flip town.  Like, he did this exact same thing with Sooh with the same out-of-game focus last time he randed wolf.  I thought it might be hard defending a team mate because Zander looked awful independently, but the pieces fit.

 

 

@SHAD OR LENLO   find me a quotewhere i said zander was town. not  where i said if he flipped town  one where i said he WAS.

 

 

 

 

oh I'll pull them up

 

good.  make sure you dont edit them cause I WILL check

 

 

and I dont NEED to lolcat

 

 

and those last ones are about me asking you to prove i called zander town.

 

 

which you havent done

[Shad_]

What mechanics of this game do you know about, that apparently allow for complexity? We KNOW for a fact there is a mason in this game, unless Darthe comes back and says that was a mistake in the coroner.

 

The first line is like a setup to discount Princess if she backs up Dices claim. Its a "Well even if she backs it up, what are the odds shes lying and is just a jester or something? I mean cmooooon."

 

The second one, more mechanics. 

 

Im taking issue Shad, in that your not just going "These are reasons Dice is wolf, im done", your going out of your way to find every possible reason why Dices claim makes him wolf. Your not even disputing whether or not his view is real, just "Hes a wolf"

 

Im waiting for Princess. Your both 50/50 in my book till she gets here.

Red, based on the flips we've seen so far, Flea could back up wolf!Dice's claim and not necessarily be a wolf.  it's a curious consequence of Jester Masons and wolves teamed with Serial Killers.  I humored the possibilities and concluded that if Flea supports the claim it's still possible she could be a Jester rather than a wolf.  Maybe you could interpret that as some awkward preemptive defense of Flea? though that's really really weird.  But what is it discrediting?  I mean, I suppose the argument relies on the assumption that I am not a wolf, but I conveniently happen to know that.

 

To the how does Shad know that the mechanics of this game are complex, I offer you:

 

Im overwhelmed with things to think about. Mason Role Cop? Mason Survivor Jester? SKs? Wolves? 3 kills in a night?

I shouldn't be able to answer your questions by quoting you. It's a big F for internal consistancy.

[Shad_]

I just woke up and have a lot of work ahead of me before I can really sit down. Just a few points for anyone who seriously doubts this:

 

I've been a Mason with Dice before. He wanted to claim the entire game and I had to continually talk him out of it. He doesn't see it as some terrible thing that a villager only does as a last ditch effort.

 

He role and character claimed with zero hesitation but he's super defensive about revealing his Mason. If he was a town mason with a red peek on me he would know he's dead tonight and clearing his partner would be the most important thing on his mind today after getting me lynched.

 

The only other explicitly Mason flip in the game was not a villager.  Sili and Zander were teamed as wolf and SK.  We already have reason to believe Dice can be a wolf Mason.  The fact that he refuses to reveal who pretty much guarantees this unless he's lying about the role in the first place.

 

Mafia have fake claims or else character names are not alignment indicative or else character reveals are not allowed. This has been true in every game I have ever played on DM as far as I can remember. Claiming Bran is worth exactly nothing.

 

He keeps pushing that he has to be town because he wouldn't claim Role Cop as a wolf. That is massively WIFOM and pretty much every wolf you've ever seen claim a PR that can be mafia has said something along these lines.

 

Dice played the Zander topic D1 exactly the same as he played Sooh in Dragon Reborn when Dice was a wolf, and anyone who takes 5 minutes to ISO that game will recognize it.

 

What Dice is pulling on me is literally the exact same thing a wolf pulled on him in Lost.  It's not some wild "wow never expected Dice to do that" play.  It's something that just happened to him and he came into this game intensely aware of its effectiveness.

 

I've been an obvious villager all game and Dice has been playing right in line to his wolf meta and plenty of you recognized this prior to his claim.

 

He was straight-up lolcatting at me last night.  I called him out for not addressing any of my D1 concerns like six times and when he finally acknowledged that I was doing this I quoted them for him and he literally pretended I didn't.

 

 

cant find the quote huh shad?

 

 

He's been wavering back and forth between still trying and openly wolfing and this is really freakin obvious.

 

Anyone who is hesitant to lynch him today had better have a good answer for all of these points.  Especially Hallia and Lenlo.

 

My god, your even trying to bring recruitment into this now. Your overcomplicating everything.

 

Blue, I have quoted and explained it. I saw your answer. I think its lacking.

 

Red, As I said, I never said I thought Dice was town. Why should I bother to read posts from D1 when we are not talking about D1. We are talking about right now. An unCCed Role Cop claim, with a mason to back it up. All youve done is prep to discredit Princess before she even comes in here to weigh in. Im yelling am I? Its yelling to ask you to address problems and inconsistencies in your argument? And now your even trying to say im a wolf, because I dont immediatly hope on with you and vote Dice? Yes you were towny D1. So was AJ.

 

Your twisting my words and now your starting to try to discredit one of the towniest people in the game, all because you dont like that my brain works differently then yours. All because I dont immediately follow your lead and lynch Dice.

 

Ive said it before, ill say it again. Im waiting for princess.

I'm starting to call you a wolf because I think you're pretty blatantly lying at this point and you're fumbling it pretty bad brother.

 

Case in point.

[Shad_]

Like, if you are a villager address that post.

[Shad_]

 

Zander was really scummy because he was a SK and he treated the slot like a wolf and he's been an obvious wolf lately.

 

Dice assumed Zander was a villager and talked about him like he was guaranteed to flip town because Dice is mafia and assumed Zander would flip town.  Like, he did this exact same thing with Sooh with the same out-of-game focus last time he randed wolf.  I thought it might be hard defending a team mate because Zander looked awful independently, but the pieces fit.

Right here your saying Dice said Zander was villager. Here you say Dice said Zander was guarnteed to flip town, or basically the same.

 

None of those are represented in the quotes you gave.

 

The post literally doesn't say that.  You're grasping at straws.

[Lenlo]

*Sigh*

 

Apparently I cant disagree with you/how you do things, and still be town. Apparently I cant want to wait for the one person who will clear this all up in a single post without being a wolf. Im not grasping at anything Shad. Im not casing you, im not calling you a wolf. Im questioning your posts and questioning why Dice cant be both wolf/3rd party and telling the truth. Why cant you both be wolves? That is the million dollar question I have been trying to get at.

[Shad_]

And that post is pretty clearly an explanation of what I think went through mafia!Dice's head.  He went on and on about "Yeah but what if Zander is town!!!" because, as mafia not aligned with Zander, he took it for granted in his head that Zander was town.  He has done this before, with Sooh, which I explained and which no one has attempted to refute.  As I said, the pieces fit.  Dice's actions D1, which you were one of the quickest to call out, fall exactly in line with his wolf meta.

 

And ok, you've been saying repeatedly now that you never called Dice town.  That's fine.  So if you are a villager, and you don't disagree with any of the points I have raised against him, why are you splitting hairs with me instead of calling a wolf a wolf?

[Lenlo]

And that post is pretty clearly an explanation of what I think went through mafia!Dice's head.  He went on and on about "Yeah but what if Zander is town!!!" because, as mafia not aligned with Zander, he took it for granted in his head that Zander was town.  He has done this before, with Sooh, which I explained and which no one has attempted to refute.  As I said, the pieces fit.  Dice's actions D1, which you were one of the quickest to call out, fall exactly in line with his wolf meta.

 

And ok, you've been saying repeatedly now that you never called Dice town.  That's fine.  So if you are a villager, and you don't disagree with any of the points I have raised against him, why are you splitting hairs with me instead of calling a wolf a wolf?

Because I have yet to discount the possibility that he actually is a mason. Mason survivor I can deal with. Mason wolf, is not and will never be a thing. Another thing I have problem with is how you have gone about him. The points, fine, yeah they fit. Does that mean they are correct, are 100% true? No. Anyone can carve a puzzle piece to fit where they need it. So im not splitting hairs, im trying to pressure you to see what happens. Cause today is an important day. I cant just side with one person immediately and go "Welp here we go". 3 kills last night. 2 tonight probably, since the SK is dead. Thats alot of death dude. We cant be careless with out days.

 

As for the bold, I didnt say that. I dont know/keep track of Dices meta. Anyones actually. I dont make meta based claims against people.

[Shad_]

*Sigh*

 

Apparently I cant disagree with you/how you do things, and still be town. Apparently I cant want to wait for the one person who will clear this all up in a single post without being a wolf. Im not grasping at anything Shad. Im not casing you, im not calling you a wolf. Im questioning your posts and questioning why Dice cant be both wolf/3rd party and telling the truth. Why cant you both be wolves? That is the million dollar question I have been trying to get at.

 

I never complained about waiting for Flea.  >_>

 

I'm just trying to figure out your alignment, and when you do things like quote a one sentence post and claim it says something it doesn't to support Dice's argument, I get reasonably sketched out.

 

And even if you honestly misread that as me saying "Dice claimed in this thread to know that Zander is a villager", I don't see how this is relevant to any of the dozens of points I raised against Dice or to his failure to address them.

 

If you think we are both wolves in some sort of multiball set-up, I would expect you to just state this, and not preamble it with a sort of smear campaign that doesn't add up or reflect a coherent internal thought process.

 

And I don't know, you're a hard read when you get feisty and you need to keep a level head if you're a villager.  I've seen you do things that felt like open wolfing when you were town before, and I remember your go at Clov in Diablo when you spun every word out of his mouth into something ridiculous and you inexplicably flipped villager, and I sort of learned to read you correctly based on how you walk away from those engagements, and I kind of expect more of a headstrong jump-up-and-down "Shad wolf!" persistence from you in this sort of situation when you're scum, and I'm not seeing that.  But it's hard to get beyond what feels like pretty blatant misrepresentation.  When you try to properly analyze things as a villager you're an obvious villager, but you're super impatient and when you get that way you're indistinguishable from your highly inconsistent wolf game. 

 

I kind of want you to be a wolf because your posting tonight has been ridiculous, but that's not necessarily productive and meh.

 

Why can't Dice and I both be wolves?  If you're town, look at the game I've played and tell me.  That's basically what being a villager is all about.

[Shad_]

Because I have yet to discount the possibility that he actually is a mason. Mason survivor I can deal with. Mason wolf, is not and will never be a thing. Another thing I have problem with is how you have gone about him. The points, fine, yeah they fit. Does that mean they are correct, are 100% true? No. Anyone can carve a puzzle piece to fit where they need it. So im not splitting hairs, im trying to pressure you to see what happens. Cause today is an important day. I cant just side with one person immediately and go "Welp here we go". 3 kills last night. 2 tonight probably, since the SK is dead. Thats alot of death dude. We cant be careless with out days.

 

As for the bold, I didnt say that. I dont know/keep track of Dices meta. Anyones actually. I dont make meta based claims against people.

It's stuff like red that I struggle to view from a townie POV.  I mean, casing isn't some foreign novelty.  If someone lays down a dozen agreeable and internally consistent reasons for why a player they read well is a wolf, the natural reaction is not to go "yes it all makes sense, but anyone can lie well".  If you have doubts, as a villager, you weigh the evidence.  You don't just say "well it's possible he's lying so I'd best disregard this".  I don't mean you-Lenlo.  I mean you-anyone.  This is not how people think.

[Shad_]

 

Dice's actions D1, which you were one of the quickest to call out, fall exactly in line with his wolf meta.

As for the bold, I didnt say that. I dont know/keep track of Dices meta. Anyones actually. I dont make meta based claims against people.

 

And this is another case where I just don't see how someone honestly misreads a post this radically.  You're a bloody mathematician, or close enough.  The sentence you bolded half of in no way implies that you claimed meta knowledge of Dice.  It's not ambiguous.  My punctuation is sound.  :???:

 

Maybe you misread the statement at a glance?  But this has been a trend for you all evening, and it allows you to avoid the topic.  I made a case against Dice.  You agreed with many of the points in it before I made it.  Address it.

 

[Shad_]

I have to go to bed really soon and I didn't even get to most of Dice's post I wanted to go through.

 

I really shouldn't have to. Games are a lot easier when more villagers step up and put in the work. I'll see what I can get to but my days of having six hours of free time every night are over for the foreseeable future and I'm going to be screwed tomorrow if I don't sleep soon.

[Shad_]

I've been a Mason with Dice before. He wanted to claim the entire game and I had to continually talk him out of it. He doesn't see it as some terrible thing that a villager only does as a last ditch effort.

red if you think im gonna openly claim mason at start of day when my role is Role cop youre nuts!

Fair enough.

 

He role and character claimed with zero hesitation but he's super defensive about revealing his Mason. If he was a town mason with a red peek on me he would know he's dead tonight and clearing his partner would be the most important thing on his mind today after getting me lynched.

red 2 no im not i asked them to claim. i am waiting for a response. I dont want to claim FOR them I even said to lenlo is it ok if i go ask them. so ure a deadset liar there

Can anyone in this game recall a time when they were a mason about to die and they didn't want town to know who their partner was?

 

You might feel weird about the whole thing. You might feel some obligation to get your partner to ok it first. But you want the information out there. Dice said he thought about revealing his partner but was choosing not to. Not a straight reveal or give me a few hours to ok it or anything along those lines. This is not a natural villagery thought process.

 

His explanation became that he was waiting on the ok only after I called him out on this, with a "deadset liar" line tacked onto the end because :???:

 

The only other explicitly Mason flip in the game was not a villager. Sili and Zander were teamed as wolf and SK. We already have reason to believe Dice can be a wolf Mason. The fact that he refuses to reveal who pretty much guarantees this unless he's lying about the role in the first place.

Blue AJs name was green the word Mason was BLUE which is usually town colour. it didnt actually say an anlignment for him iirc

Argument: the fact that it was colored blue and green is more important than the fact that it flipped Mason Jester Survivor. :???:

 

Mafia have fake claims or else character names are not alignment indicative or else character reveals are not allowed. This has been true in every game I have ever played on DM as far as I can remember. Claiming Bran is worth exactly nothing.

Did you read the OP?

I just played in a Pizza game a month ago where the main character in the OP flavor text was a scum fake claim. Flavor is flavor. Dice has played 100+ mafia games and has absolutely seen this happen many times.

 

Dice played the Zander topic D1 exactly the same as he played Sooh in Dragon Reborn when Dice was a wolf, and anyone who takes 5 minutes to ISO that game will recognize it.

red really? well seeing as your paranoid enuff to go looking for things to use against me maybe ure right. I dont recall what i did with sooh but i would guess i town read her which i DIDNT do here to zander. thing is Im not scum here. YOU ARE.

I called Dice out on this before he claimed a peek on me. He says I went digging after the peek claim to try and smear him. :???:

 

In that game, Dice was a wolf and Sooh was a villager who took a lot of heat for behavior stemming from out-of-game issues she was having at the time. Dice never called her town. He adamantly insisted that all of her actions were null because of her RL issues and got aggressive towards some of the players who wanted to lynch her. It was literally the exact same thing he did with Zander on D1. Identical.

 

His argument is to say he can't remember what happened in that game and say he never called Zander town in this game but he probably called Sooh town in that one. He didn't call Sooh town in that one. And I never said he called Zander town in this game. He pulled the "Shad said I called Zander town and he's lying" argument out of nowhere and has persistently pressed it, and I've repeatedly stated that this never happened and quoted my actual concerns, and he's continued to ignore them in favor of this line.

 

What Dice is pulling on me is literally the exact same thing a wolf pulled on him in Lost. It's not some wild "wow never expected Dice to do that" play. It's something that just happened to him and he came into this game intensely aware of its effectiveness.

blue no its not. Zander fake claimed a peek on me. Im not faking.

This is not a rebuttal. It's just stating "no I'm town".

 

I've been an obvious villager all game and Dice has been playing right in line to his wolf meta and plenty of you recognized this prior to his claim.

geen right caue you know mafia NEVER manage a good D1 where they seem town do they?

Not all obvious villagers are wolves, and :???: the second part of my sentence is rather important here.

 

Your points have no validity and yep therte was a certain amount of lolcatting i have you hooked. You arnt getting away and im enjoying ure wriggling trying to

Conclusion: my points are invalid because.......

 

Dice is not a difficult player to read people.

 

Shouting a lot about things that have nothing to do with the points raised against him, excessive name-calling, presenting nothing of substance towards determining anyone's alignment, harping on some out-of-game issues and TMIing players not aligned with him.

 

It's the same flip every time.

[Shad_]

And now I sleep.

[Shad_]

Seriously, villagers step up and analyze and force the wolves to either bus or go down with the ship. Towns only lose when too many people sit on their hands and don't bother thinking for themselves.

[Shad_]

 

 

 

 

and I agree with sili that if you thought z was a wolf why the hesitation voting him? why give celeste time? I KNOW that doesnt always happen i subbed for hallia once i think it was her and was walking right into the lynch. like 4 hrs or something later im dead.

leaving my vote there

Your slot had already been peeked red in that game.

(What kind of jerk mod subs someone into a peeked wolf slot? )

I absolutely don't get the issue with giving a fresh sub time to contribute when we have 24 hours left on the clock anyway.

Honestly I don't get any of this.

Correct me if I'm tracking this wrong:

You think Zander is null at worst on his own merit, and you think the push on him is scummy so implicitly he's probably villa.

A player who had been pushing to lynch him now wants to reconsider and not rush the matter before giving the sub a chance.

This bothers you enough to progress from a suss to a locked vote.

Do you think Zander's a wolf now?

Like, I could see you thinking Sirren's post was a manner of testing the water to see if she could still push a lynch through now that a sub's come in, but her indecisive 'should I give it time or vote anyway?' approach isn't what you're taking issue with. Your issue is that she even considered backing off for a bit.

What I'm basically taking away from this is that you think Sirren is scummy for not encouraging a speed lynch on a player who you think is a villager. :???:

 

 

 

I don't know, I think Dice has been barking up the wrong tree quite a bit in this game and on the one hand it's usually a good look when he's off in left field doing his own thing, on the other it feels a little opportunistic.  Like a matter of trying to defend hard without looking like you're defending hard by actually going after the people pushing the lynch instead of just defending.
 
/shrug
 
Kind of want to see a Z flip before I put too much thought into it.

 
im not actually defending zander you know.  i havent given one reason why he is town. Im taking issue with lenlos thinking and a post of sirrens  not people wanting to lynch zander
 
and to another question from u   yeah i think you missed something. I quoted sirrens post and highlighted the whole planning bit when i voted her. Also said about since when does town have a plan?  she responded to me after which i said i was leaving my vote

 

Red, I just don't see how you can have all of these reads revolving around the treatment of Zander and yet have no opinion on his slot at this point.  I mean you've called multiple players scummy for their pushes on Zander.  If you're a villager, you should think the slot is > rand town at this point even if you consider it null on its own merits, unless you think he was heavily bussed, which I assume you would have stated at this point.  So defending him isn't a bad thing under these circumstances and I don't see why you'd deny it.  If you're a wolf and Zander is a villager, I think you'd be pretty chill with letting his lynch go through.  Neither is the case here.  You're sort of distancing from him by insisting you don't have an opinion on him while still sussing the people who push him.  That feels like a wolf defending a team mate.  The fact that you're denying any sort of defense is part of the issue.
 
 
Blue, I did see you highlight a particular statement and I didn't really understand why at the time.  You literally just said "Wanna tell me how town can carry on with what they were planning? Vote: Sirren".  I took your next post as a follow-through, not a second point.  If your an issue was specifically her use of the word "planning"...  ok?  I'll grant that you didn't change your reasoning mid-stride then, but it's weak to the point that I didn't even interpret it as one at the time.
 
I guess I've never been shy to call things as they are and it doesn't bother me when others do.  Zander was the most likely person to be the D1 lynch at the time she posted.  Calling it the "plan" is just stating reality and if anything demonstrates a lack of concern for how other players perceive you.  That you don't see it this way isn't necessarily bothersome, though I wish you'd been more explicit, but it doesn't really resolve my concern about your second point--the whole business of town!Sirren should have just voted him and not waited for Celeste to start posting.

 

 

and yet again I didnt defend Zander. I attacked the people voting him for things they said way they seemed to be thinking. At some point are you going to understand that?

You keep restating this without addressing my issue. It doesn't make sense to have no thoughts on Z's slot when you've been sussing people for their approach to that slot.

Like, "man, a bunch of scummy people are making an opportunistic push to lynch Zander while he's afk. I think Zander's been heavily spewed null at this point."

A villager doesn't think that.

A villager doesn't have no thoughts on the slot at this point.

Do you understand my concern here?

 

 

 

 
 

cant find the quote huh shad?

Also this really happened.

 

He later said he blew it off because he never called Zander town.

 

:???:

 

Click the spoiler.  Read the text.  His argument all phase for ignoring this has been to basically agree with the point I make against him in it.