[Basic] I <3 the 90's Mafia: Music Edition - TOWN WINS!

[keyholder21]

Official Vote Count:
 
Lenlo (2) - Sili, Lizabeth
Sili (2) - Lenlo, Hallia

Not Voting (7): Besie, BFG, Katiora,Clov, Lily, Wistork, Alanna,
 
With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
 
Deadline is longer due to DM weekend and me having a crazy Monday.  So, enjoy? 
 

[keyholder21]

Goodnight everyone!

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 6/12/2016 at 3:20 AM, Lizabeth said:

@Lenlo and @Sili -  I did look back at old posts and saw that you guys have been squabbling since early on (I must have missed it or forgotten it in the midst of all the other squabbles going on.... ). But I also noticed that Hallia commented that you guys tend to do this with each other in games and she noted it as frequently a town-town tell for you two and she suggested you both back off.

 

So if that's the case, why are you two interpreting each other's reactions to each other as scummy this game? I saw Sili's long post just now. But Lenlo, do you have anything other than Sili being passive aggressive/active aggressive with you? And other than your A,B, C theory about the NK?

 

Hallia, I also noticed that you're now voting Sili - what about Sili concerns you now taht didn't concern you when the two of them were going at it on D1?

 

I'm not sure Halia is very informed about us, and far as I remember, her statement about our conflict was generic.

 

And the question of why we're still fighting so late has an obvious answer. Because nothing was resolved earlier, and Lenlo hasn't done anything to really make me think I was wrong.

 

May I ask you a question?

 

You think Hallia is for sure town correct?

 

Because I think she said she didn't like how I refused to quote the post for Lenlo.

 

I want to know why you asked Hallia that. Maybe you have reason to think Hallia has more grievances to take up with me?

 

It feels like you're playing both sides here to be honest. And I never understood your question about the sk earlier. You explained it, but really being an sk and being town isn't that different. Didn't you say that about me as well?

 

I'm confused, a little, but I'll be straight up with you.  I find it a little suspicious how you're treating this situation for some reason.

[Sili Quirrels]

Did nin tell us who she protected n1? Because I wasn't really looking out for it at the time because there was already one nk from that night.

[Sili Quirrels]

I have a theory but it's going to sound silly.

 

I'm going to wait for more info before I make a fool of myself.

[Sili Quirrels]

  Quote

Theres no technically. He was flat out wrong. What wold you have had me do with Dice? "Oh no Dice, its ok your wrong and constantly pushing this thing. Just rethink it mmmk?". No. I told him he was wrong, explained why, and then left. There was nothing else after that. Your also using alot of "Seem like", "perhaps", "possibility", your attempting to interpret something that was proven wrong as something that may still have merit.

 

@lenlo,

 

I remember the back and forth between you and clov and dice lasting for a while, so the 'and then left' happened repeatedly?

 

I obviously don't know for sure what dice was thinking. all i can do is analyze what he meant. Dice did not use my words, but my words seem to sum his position up.

 

Did you try your hardest to get Wishtree lynched? Because, while it's hard to keep track of everything, I think you said it wasn't unusual for you to not try your hardest to get someone lynched.

 

And this seemed to be the core of what Dice was on about so whether or not he was right about you I think that idea did have the air of validity about it.

[Sili Quirrels]

  Quote

You called me a wolf soon after my catchup. Of course my activity would surge after I had caught up. Once again I will also explain that treating someone as a human with a working cerebellum, with the ability to talk and reason and discuss, does not equate to treating them as town. I wanted to talk with you and get your reads and discuss with you because, if you were wolf, doing so would hopefully give away or atleast lead to your teammates. You understand? You get information from the person you think is a wolf before you lynch them.

 

 

I used the first instance of it to illustrate the presence of a pattern. Your activity surges whenever you're pushed. This happens to a degree with everyone, but once again, I can't remember very many of your posts that weren't correlated with someone's push on you.

 

Perhaps if you'd had more wolf suspects than the omgus ones and asked them questions in the same manner I might believe that you were just trying to glean information from them, but personally I thought the way you framed those questions was a little tmi.

[Sili Quirrels]

I just found these. They weren't painted red but they were from lenlo's response to my case on him. You can go back and find them if you're curious. They're underneath the text I wrote.

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 6/12/2016 at 4:52 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  Quote

Theres no technically. He was flat out wrong. What wold you have had me do with Dice? "Oh no Dice, its ok your wrong and constantly pushing this thing. Just rethink it mmmk?". No. I told him he was wrong, explained why, and then left. There was nothing else after that. Your also using alot of "Seem like", "perhaps", "possibility", your attempting to interpret something that was proven wrong as something that may still have merit.

 

@lenlo,

 

I remember the back and forth between you and clov and dice lasting for a while, so the 'and then left' happened repeatedly?

 

I obviously don't know for sure what dice was thinking. all i can do is analyze what he meant. Dice did not use my words, but my words seem to sum his position up.

 

Did you try your hardest to get Wishtree lynched? Because, while it's hard to keep track of everything, I think you said it wasn't unusual for you to not try your hardest to get someone lynched.

 

And this seemed to be the core of what Dice was on about so whether or not he was right about you I think that idea did have the air of validity about it.

 

Excuse me, it wasn't wishtree but nin I believe.

 

I was never one for wagonomics, so I usually don't pay a lot of attention to who votes whom unless they are my suspect at the time.

[Sili Quirrels]

I don't know if there's anything more that's smart that I can say and I don't want to mismanage today so I'll just head in.

 

Maybe one more thing.

 

I'd like people's thoughts on liz.

 

Lenlo too, if you're so inclined. I do try to pay attention to my town core when it comes to their reads, and I would like to know what reasons clov had for town reading lenlo yesterday.

[Lenlo]

  On 6/12/2016 at 4:52 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  Quote

Theres no technically. He was flat out wrong. What wold you have had me do with Dice? "Oh no Dice, its ok your wrong and constantly pushing this thing. Just rethink it mmmk?". No. I told him he was wrong, explained why, and then left. There was nothing else after that. Your also using alot of "Seem like", "perhaps", "possibility", your attempting to interpret something that was proven wrong as something that may still have merit.

 

@lenlo,

 

I remember the back and forth between you and clov and dice lasting for a while, so the 'and then left' happened repeatedly?

 

I obviously don't know for sure what dice was thinking. all i can do is analyze what he meant. Dice did not use my words, but my words seem to sum his position up.

 

Did you try your hardest to get Wishtree lynched? Because, while it's hard to keep track of everything, I think you said it wasn't unusual for you to not try your hardest to get someone lynched.

 

And this seemed to be the core of what Dice was on about so whether or not he was right about you I think that idea did have the air of validity about it.

 

It was Nin, as you corrected later.

 

Did I try my hardest and rail and rage into the thread demanding everyone vote her? No. But the only other time I remember doing that is in a game where I was the cop and had a red view on someone most everyone else was town reading. then theres the fact that I was tired of that day after arguing with you. There was very little craps to give at that point, so to be frank, I wouldnt say going all out for a lynch is all that common for me unless im like... 99% sure they are wolf.

 

As for it lasting awhile, it was me and Dice for like afew pages. Once I gave him bullet points there were afew more "My god how does this not make sense" posts, but beyond that no. There was really nothing beyond that. The Dice/Clov was a different issue that happened after. Clov was not involved until he said he liked my thought process and explanation to Dice.

 

Incidentally thats the reason Clov is town reading me, as he has stated multiple times this game. He found the way the explanation was worded, its consistency with what happened and how it was presented to only be able to come from a towny.

[Clovdyx]

Lenlo, why are you offering to give him what you're suggesting he wants?

[BFG]

Morning :)

[BFG]

  On 6/12/2016 at 12:16 AM, Hallia said:

If it's between the two, I'm gonna

 

[v] Sili [/v]

Who do you think is mafia? Why does it have to be between the two?

[BFG]

Chris what's your read on wish at the moment?

[BFG]

  On 6/12/2016 at 12:23 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  On 6/11/2016 at 10:13 PM, wish-tree said:

I'm irritated for out of game reasons and also because I don't even know WHAT your cases on each other are

Well Lenlo's case seems to me to be I've been wrong about him and I don't push that hard for my reads.

 

Frankly he is correct. I haven't felt confident enough about various reads to defend them. And my town core is everyone's town core so there's been no need to defend people I feel strongly about.

 

However, he is incorrect when he says I went on about the wrongness of Dice's lynch, or if not incorrect, I at least think he is being misleading. I've never gone after people for voting Dice, merely joked about how I was right. I like being on the right side of history. Everyone does. But I did not make a big deal out of it.

 

 

My case on Lenlo is an amalgamation. tl;dr is he doesn't care about the game, only cares about defending himself.

 

(1) I can't recall many times this game Lenlo has posted content that was not omgus or bent around defending himself. His first catch up post he says later had no reads. Despite containing no read related information he uses a lot of negative connotative words, and it's up to you whether you believe he meant them innocuously.

 

(2) Lenlo's activity first surged when  I said I had him as a wolf and tried to show why by giving my reaction to his catch-up post. He said I was wrong and misreading him. AS we later find out other people agreed with my interpretation so it couldn't have been just me, so I think lenlo either lacks self-awareness or is involved in revisionist history. Either way it is clear he wasn't very concerned with why i interpretted his post the way i did, but rather proving that i misread. His phrasing during this part treats me as town even though at other times he says he thinks i'm a wolf.

 

(3) Lenlo's behavior with dice was a little less ping-worthy because Dice was actually technically incorrect, I believe. My main problem right now is that as with me Lenlo's focus was on proving that Dice was lying or was incorrect or whatever. And frankly as time went on it certainly did seem like waht Dice meant was that Lenlo didn't fight for the lynch he wanted as hard as he could have. What dice was perhaps thinking was that the lynch lenlo wanted was a possibility but lenlo didn't fight for it, and that is ironically what lenlo's case on me boils down to.

 

Except I of course have proven that I do indeed care about this game. I merely don't pretend to have stronger reads than I do unless I do, and I don't want to try and persuade people to my side by forcing their hand.

 

(4) Lenlo's use of lying just recently implies he has some through line of dismissing pushes against him, either because that's who he is or because he is not town and values his life to an unreasonable degree (and not a pr because a pr actually does more to help the town win condition in my opinion).

 

Going to requote this, because for the most part I think this is true. The part about addressing Sili as town despite thinking him mafia doesn't mean much to me, town do that as much as mafia, BUT linked to this is the fact that Lenlo's early vote was out of frustration and to paraphrase 'I don't care if Sili's town or not'. Despite wanting Niniel to be the Day 1 lynch he doesn't do much to further her lynch Day 2 (and I don't think Day 1) and his vote came late.

 

More concerning is his more recent focus on a possible SK and apparent lack of mafia suspects and lack of interest in finding them

[BFG]

  On 6/12/2016 at 1:01 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  On 6/12/2016 at 12:49 AM, Lenlo said:

Sili is now attempting to play the reasonable townie, when all through out this game hes been anything but.

:/

 

I don't want a fight right now. At other times I am okay with a fight, but not now.

 

Though I would argue that the fact I haven't voted someone I find wolfy in a vacuum for like 4 real life days testifies to my attempt at reasonablness.

 

The fact bfg found that your meta interpretation for yourself is lacking - matches what i know.

 

Why not?

[BFG]

  On 6/11/2016 at 9:51 PM, Lizabeth said:

 

  On 6/11/2016 at 9:41 PM, BFG said:

Liz, what's made me move up your list?

Your activity during the night, especially the isos, your actual pushes on people today.

 

To be honest, I was hesitating on you most of the game because I've always heard that you tend to be a strong town leader when you're town and you lay low when you're scum. For the first two days you felt kind of in the middle for me. But reading through last night and today you moved up. You're taking charge and taking names and all that :)

 

I'm rarely a town leader Tbh nor would I say I'm actually pushing anyone yet today

[BFG]

  On 6/11/2016 at 9:30 PM, Lizabeth said:

 

  On 6/11/2016 at 9:07 PM, BFG said:

 

  On 6/11/2016 at 8:46 PM, Lizabeth said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

  On 6/11/2016 at 2:27 PM, BFG said:

 

  On 6/11/2016 at 7:59 AM, BFG said:

Hallia

Niniel

 

 

Sili

Chris

Laine

Wish

 

Besie

 

Lily

Kat

 

Liz

Darthe

 

Lenlo

 

Something like this? But most of my reasoning is super thin :(

Ok, I didn't get very far so far

 

Frankly everyone needs looking at in depth for any confidence

 

Wish was pretty emotionally manipulative in Ragnarok (purposefully or otherwise I don't know) and I'm seeing none of that here. Her logic/process is hard to follow, but she tries every time something is pointed out. She's also more aggressive/assertive than her more recent mafia game here - there's the potential for some steep learning curves between the games I've seen her play, so I don't know how much stock I can put in it.

 

Laine's relative quietness is a little concerning, but her post where she talked about me vs. Zander was more casually observant than most. Definitely follow through needed in terms of her Hallia question.

 

Chris is really tricky, I don't want to tinfoil because of bad reasons, but it's sort of hard not to. Seems to be feeling isolated in thread and I'm not sure what to make of that. Generally I've agreed with him all game (except Lenlo now lol). Dunno if I can ever be confident here

 

Sili has more or less maintained thread presence all game, is that enough? Page 20 or whenever looked pretty good

 

Besie is up so high, mostly because I don't like Darthe's push and because I remember her being more confident as mafia, I also know that Cory has pointed that out about her play and that she'll probably work on that I don't hate that her reads lists are generally different.

 

Lily is severely floating UTR at this point and needs to participate more.

 

Kat's Day 2 irked me, a lot of posts about none participation and apparent double standards

 

Liz, nothing new from my last post - I don't understand her approach towards Seph if he was a mafia read and her vote on Dice makes little sense retroactively

 

Darthe's reads progression has seemed odd all game and I hated his early pop in/nudges

 

Lenlo, enough said. I think he's mafia but don't want to rush this

 

 

What didn't you understand about my approach towards Seph or Dice?

 

I was poking Dice from early day 1, and I clearly outlined the reasons that Seph was my top mafia read, and I said that Dice, Darthe and Lenlo were my top mafia suspects on D1 as well.

 

If Seph was your strongest mafia read from early game, I don't understand why you didn't do more to push him from earlier on. If he wasn't I don't know why you didn't do more to address him and try to resolve issues (before your case which was made and given when there was no time for him to address any of it before end of day).

 

Pretty sure the reason you gave at the time to vote Dice was competing trains and something about Chris's link with Niniel. And same answer to Lily, I currently have very little thread recall from about Wednesday to Friday last week.

 

 

 

Chris is because although I won't stop tinfoiling, he isn't mafia with Lenlo and I feel significantly worse about Lenlo (ironically Chris disagrees). Besides, the vote switch makes no sense to me as either alignment. As town, I don't see him having so little conviction in his read, as mafia I don't see why he would make himself look that bad on purpose.

 

I did explain this before. The way I play is to send out probes, poke people, wait for the reactions, then jump on what comes out. I was constantly behind in the thread and with the volume of the thread and with the lack of quote and mentions notifications (which I'm used to at PerC) I couldn't even see if anyone was responding to the probes I was sending out.

 

Like the SK question with Sili. I'd actually already decided that if the Sili/Seph argument was mafa/town, that Sili was more likely to be the town in that fight. But I still had some tinfoil going about Sili because I saw that he had just won a game as SK. So I was trying to test things to see how both he and Seph (and others) would react to the possibility of Sili being SK being floated. As far as I know only Sili responded,

 

I was basing my read on Seph off of his responses to other people in the thread while I was fighting to catch up.

 

As for Dice, I was poking him from D1 and also hardly ever got a chance to interact with him in real time in the thread. But I said from D1 he was one of my scummiest reads. I didn't vote him to form a competing wagon, I was appealing to people who were saying that he and Niniel were likely teamed that if they thought that then they should be voting Dice as a competing wagon. I wasn't as convinced that Niniel was scum as other people were, which is why I unvoted her when i realized my test vote could get her killed before I had a chance to test my theory. And the point I was at in the thread, she was L-1 from getting lynched and I was afraid that if people didn't back off of her she'd be hammered before anything could be tested further.

 

I guess there's not much I can argue against in terms of the thread's huge and if you fall behind it's very difficult to catch up.

 

But

 

You put questions out to Zander, Darthe and wish and don't address Seph till 2 or 3 days into the game.

 

You quote a post of Chris's that you agree with about Lenlo but none for Seph from anyone else, even though you're judging him on his responses to other people.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/98177-basic-i-3-the-90s-mafia-music-edition-day-3/?view=findpost&p=3664174 this is your first (game related) post towards Seph

 

Can you explain what you mean by "protecting a town buddy" http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/98177-basic-i-3-the-90s-mafia-music-edition-day-3/?view=findpost&p=3664519

 

And you imply that you're not willing to push Dice/Darthe/Lenlo because you haven't had chance to test theories, but unless I misunderstand what you mean by this you haven't tested any theories on Seph either.

 

You're voting Lenlo... what do you think of the post where he told me to go check out his Lost game?

 

And I'm ISOimg your Day 2 and again, I'm not seeing anything in your ISO to explain a mafia read on Dice, you spend your time poking Darthe. You ask Dice why he thinks Darthe/Lenlo are teammates, which I'm pretty sure he explains to me (and even though I didn't like the reason, you don't acknowledge it)

[BFG]

I'm out for a while, but I really want to finish my reread today so I'll be back later

[BFG]

Chris, what conclusion am I incorrectly making about your actions?

[Guest]

There's a bit more than 1 and a half days before dl. The two trains atm are Lenlo and Sili. I'm never voting Sili today. I'll look into Lenlo. Still looking into liz and lily too, from yesterday (I slept most of yesterday so only just started the one iso).

[Clovdyx]

My alignment? You said you won't stop tinfoiling about me.

[alannalynn]

I'm here if anyone wants to talk. Going to try and read a little bit.

[alannalynn]

If anyone's keeping count, I'm 100 pages behind. lol