[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

Yates · November 3, 2015

I was a role cop.

Blech.

I'm going to try to come at this from an unbiased perspective - since I haven't been scum reading you - but I don't recall the last time I saw a Town aligned role cop.

If Town:

Role cop would return "godfather" on godfather and "vanilla" on goons. So extremely limited in utility.

It would also suggest there is some kind of overlap between Town roles and Scum roles. Can only verify a vig claim, for example, but not alignment. So again, extremely limited in utility.

Shad_ · November 3, 2015

I was a role cop.
Blech.

I'm going to try to come at this from an unbiased perspective - since I haven't been scum reading you - but I don't recall the last time I saw a Town aligned role cop.

If Town:

Role cop would return "godfather" on godfather and "vanilla" on goons. So extremely limited in utility.

It would also suggest there is some kind of overlap between Town roles and Scum roles. Can only verify a vig claim, for example, but not alignment. So again, extremely limited in utility.

I actually got a vanilla town response, which I wasn't expecting at all. I don't know if that would have been the case if Nomi hadn't been a revealed flip anyway or if I'd have just been told vanilla, and I don't really care since it's spent now regardless. But I disagree on utility. If Rack had survived yesterday I could have confirmed him town over night. If I hadn't burnt it yesterday I could confirm if Lenlo is lying N2. So I've already ran into two practical applications for it.

Shad_ · November 3, 2015

Why? You've been addressing Lenlo as a suspect all night

Should I be bothered since Clov already said this and it's not the most obvious conclusion to jump to (though it's a reasonable one)? Eh, probably not.

Lenlo · November 3, 2015

Obnoxious*
Lenlo emotionally tilted by zanders boast. Town tend not to be offended as easily.

This is a horrible point. Alignment doesn't have anything to do with someone's personal involvement in the game.

Maybe his arrogance bugged me cause he was hounding me for the past week with very little to go off of, he was wrong, and yet people still praise him like the second coming.

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2015

When have i ever said personal involvement in the game specifically.

[v]lenlo[/v]

Thane Vakarian · November 3, 2015

so, yeah.... not feeling the 'let's lynch the doc' vibe here....

even if the chance is slim, there's still a chance he is telling the truth.

i'll throw it on an entirely different angle here, and will ...

[v] Taborline [/v]

more chances of finding a wolf here than with Lenlo IMO.

talks a lot, says little, leaves remarks left and right without explaining.... just a tag along wolf, hoping to be ignored till endgame

Clovdyx · November 3, 2015

I'm not sure if I believe the claim...Cory's point about possibly hinting/claiming D1 isn't one I necessarily disagree with. But I understand his reasoning for his choice (and agree with it), and he didn't take too much time to answer him. Not saying he couldn't do that as mafia, but there wasn't much time between his original claim, Cory's question, and the follow up answer. If he's lying, he had it prepared.

I'm not going to say what I was "looking for" at this point.

Clovdyx · November 3, 2015

Shad: claim is plausible, but 1x cop and 1x doc only? Game would be unbalanced some from my point of view. But, like i said before, it's not the moment for other PR's to claim. When the time comes, we'll see how things play out.

This post is making me re-think Thane hard. I've felt good about him most of the game just because I have a hard time imagining he'd produce those notes as mafia and have mostly liked what he said, but it kind of reeks of TMI to me.

Lenlo · November 3, 2015

Sili please, you said offended. Is there a way to getoffended impersonally?

Lenlo · November 3, 2015

Get offended*

Thane Vakarian · November 3, 2015

Shad: claim is plausible, but 1x cop and 1x doc only? Game would be unbalanced some from my point of view. But, like i said before, it's not the moment for other PR's to claim. When the time comes, we'll see how things play out.

This post is making me re-think Thane hard. I've felt good about him most of the game just because I have a hard time imagining he'd produce those notes as mafia and have mostly liked what he said, but it kind of reeks of TMI to me.

I honestly expect another town PR to be in the game besides these two. But claiming now would basically be suicide for that player, Clov. We have a possibly outed doc already.

Shad_ · November 3, 2015

Shad: claim is plausible, but 1x cop and 1x doc only? Game would be unbalanced some from my point of view. But, like i said before, it's not the moment for other PR's to claim. When the time comes, we'll see how things play out.

This post is making me re-think Thane hard. I've felt good about him most of the game just because I have a hard time imagining he'd produce those notes as mafia and have mostly liked what he said, but it kind of reeks of TMI to me.

Interesting catch. But without checking I'm pretty sure Thane says "from my point of view" pretty often to just mean "in my opinion". Does that impact your thoughts here?

Thane Vakarian · November 3, 2015

Shad: claim is plausible, but 1x cop and 1x doc only? Game would be unbalanced some from my point of view. But, like i said before, it's not the moment for other PR's to claim. When the time comes, we'll see how things play out.

This post is making me re-think Thane hard. I've felt good about him most of the game just because I have a hard time imagining he'd produce those notes as mafia and have mostly liked what he said, but it kind of reeks of TMI to me.

Interesting catch. But without checking I'm pretty sure Thane says "from my point of view" pretty often to just mean "in my opinion". Does that impact your thoughts here?

bolded: exactly. *hands cookie*

Thane Vakarian · November 3, 2015

and now i need some sleep.... it's only tuesday and the rest of the week will [censored]

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2015

Sili please, you said offended. Is there a way to getoffended impersonally?

Perhaps u shld start by not overreacting and misrepresenting or not reading what i said.

Clovdyx · November 3, 2015

I was a role cop.
Blech.

I'm going to try to come at this from an unbiased perspective - since I haven't been scum reading you - but I don't recall the last time I saw a Town aligned role cop.

If Town:

Role cop would return "godfather" on godfather and "vanilla" on goons. So extremely limited in utility.

It would also suggest there is some kind of overlap between Town roles and Scum roles. Can only verify a vig claim, for example, but not alignment. So again, extremely limited in utility.

I was a role cop.
Blech.

I'm going to try to come at this from an unbiased perspective - since I haven't been scum reading you - but I don't recall the last time I saw a Town aligned role cop.

If Town:

Role cop would return "godfather" on godfather and "vanilla" on goons. So extremely limited in utility.

It would also suggest there is some kind of overlap between Town roles and Scum roles. Can only verify a vig claim, for example, but not alignment. So again, extremely limited in utility.

I actually got a vanilla town response, which I wasn't expecting at all. I don't know if that would have been the case if Nomi hadn't been a revealed flip anyway or if I'd have just been told vanilla, and I don't really care since it's spent now regardless. But I disagree on utility. If Rack had survived yesterday I could have confirmed him town over night. If I hadn't burnt it yesterday I could confirm if Lenlo is lying N2. So I've already ran into two practical applications for it.

I was hoping we could avoid this discussion after the claim, but since it's already out there, I'm going to semi-back and semi-refute what Yates said; I don't remember the last time I saw a town-aligned role cop on Dragonmount. I've seen it multiple times on WF, and I'm reasonably confident I've seen it as a town role on Jetsnation (where Nolder sometimes plays).

Yates' point about having limited utility is true, I guess, if you're comparing it to a standard cop (since town is more concerned with catching ANY mafia than scum PR hunting) or the mafia variant (since a PR nk is much more desirable than a vanilla). I'm not going to say there wouldn't be one, though, because there's plenty of applications for it - like Shad said, he could easily have used it to verify a PR claim.

Clovdyx · November 3, 2015

Shad: claim is plausible, but 1x cop and 1x doc only? Game would be unbalanced some from my point of view. But, like i said before, it's not the moment for other PR's to claim. When the time comes, we'll see how things play out.

This post is making me re-think Thane hard. I've felt good about him most of the game just because I have a hard time imagining he'd produce those notes as mafia and have mostly liked what he said, but it kind of reeks of TMI to me.

I honestly expect another town PR to be in the game besides these two. But claiming now would basically be suicide for that player, Clov. We have a possibly outed doc already.

Well, I'm not inclined to disagree with you? We know there was something besides two claimed one-shots, since Rack was a power role. I don't care to discuss THIS issue any further.

That literally has nothing to do with my thoughts, though.

Shad: claim is plausible, but 1x cop and 1x doc only? Game would be unbalanced some from my point of view. But, like i said before, it's not the moment for other PR's to claim. When the time comes, we'll see how things play out.

This post is making me re-think Thane hard. I've felt good about him most of the game just because I have a hard time imagining he'd produce those notes as mafia and have mostly liked what he said, but it kind of reeks of TMI to me.

Interesting catch. But without checking I'm pretty sure Thane says "from my point of view" pretty often to just mean "in my opinion". Does that impact your thoughts here?

Not really. If mafia is four goons, I'd say they're probably underpowered. If it's five power roles, he's absolutely right. My issue is I don't know how anybody can really have an opinion one way or another, unless they know more about the set up.

Lenlo · November 3, 2015

Like if u r v cory and i tunneled u i think the wolves wld apppreciate not hate me.

Who was Lenlo mad at besides Zander

I'm missing what you are saying, can you rephrase?

Dunno.my pnt is minor and simple. Len took z's arrogance personally and im having trouble seeing why.

When have i ever said personal involvement in the game specifically.

[v]lenlo[/v]

Clovdyx · November 3, 2015

I will say, I fully believe that Thane could make that post as town and not really consider the implications. If it was somebody more analytical (rather than intuitive), I might advocate for kill-on-sight. Still, it lowers my confidence in him.

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2015

In

The

Game

...

Len im going to lock my vote in. K.

Lenlo · November 3, 2015

Were those posts from another game?

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2015

Just bcause ur involved in the game doesnt mean u shld be offended by zander being obnoxious on an island on pg 27

Shad_ · November 3, 2015

Honestly this post

Going back and reading Cory, if I read you alone I come up with villager. Does that mean I drop the vibe from Laine altogether? No, but it does put you higher on my list. <3 I really like these recent points on Pral. I think I was taken in by his early posting, but this response he just posted:

And, that's how you got the cop killed in that game. I am not taunting here, but you tend to have a massive confirmation bias in trying to read me and that is annoying to see every game. You basically try to come up with reasons to look at me as scum and then end with with nonsensical reasons how my playstyle is different this game as compared to the previous. The only common thing about my games is that I am a low-poster D1 and D2.

The reason for that is that I hate D1s. I find it extremely difficult to catch up 15+ pages per day. Hence, I tend to be more active and effective D3+ when the post count has toned down, when I have more information due to flips and wagons etc. D1 is all about tone/meta based reasoning which in most cases is just erroneous and like a dart thrown around. So, if I am inactive D1 it is by preference and not necessarily based on alignment.

Have at it however you want but that is how I play.

The problem is that your playstyle doesn't keep you from ever randing wolf. You can lecture me on how you were a villager in Ragnarok, but I've seen games where you've gone deep as a wolf despite contributing very little and players just went "Oh it's just Pral being Pral".

You don't get a free villager read for being you, and other players are more villagery for you, so exactly why do you deserve to be higher in my PoE?

If you think D1 is erroneous or meaningless I have no idea what to tell you. I have something like a ~60% d1 wolf lynch rate, and games where villages lynch wolves on d1 end in village victories a very good clip of the time because there is a great deal to glean from it.

Why are you a villager, Pral? Besides that this is "how you always play". I don't care at all how you play, I care about whether or not you are a villager. Capiche?

Like you are basically saying "I deserve to get a pass on d1 and d2 because I don't think those days are important"

Why do you deserve to live more than people trying on d1 and d2 Pral? What makes you exempt from the rules everyone else lives by in this game?

Also, as I said before, the later the game goes, the more you can glean out of me. D1 and D2, I don't care much either as town or scum.
Pral - you know I love you and I love playing with you and that I think you bring a perspective to the game that is different and weird and almost always appreciated. My question to you is; how do we get you to post more often?

I ask you this because your activity becomes a talking point in ~every game. And people often use that as an excuse to vote you. Take Cory as an example. I have already posted for you a snippet of what Cory thinks about activity AS A WOLF. When he is scum, he likes to "kill the smart, active villagers above all else..." It stands to reason that as Town he would want to lynch the dumb or inactive villagers in lieu of a better scum read. It also stands to reason that as wolf he could find himself getting stuck pushing on inactive users when he doesn't think he can get the mislynch he is looking for.

TLDR - If I could get you to post more and be more active and, in general, make yourself an unlynchable Townie that would be great. If you're a wolf I will be upset with you this game but ask you to accommodate this request in future Town games.

Pral - you know I love you and I love playing with you and that I think you bring a perspective to the game that is different and weird and almost always appreciated. My question to you is; how do we get you to post more often?

The reason I am inactive on D1 is because I have a hard time catching up with the pace of the game. The game content massively reduces from D2 onwards and that is when I am more active - also due to better information available. I have been getting killed either by town or by 3rd party by D2 in all the recent games and that is probably one of the reasons for my annoyance.

Is scummy. Game content doesn't massively reduce from D2 onwards. It can become more focused, but with quotes, and people having better arguments and more evidence to base those arguments off of, will be longer.

Unvote

Vote: Pral

makes me feel pretty comfortable calling you town, because I grasp your thought process and scum!Hallia doesn't have one.

Is this in regards to her thought process on Cory or on Pral? I don't see anything remotely good about her thought process there - the game, in fact, DOES reduce on D2 onwards because there's less people talking...and even if it didn't, how is that point worth voting him for?

Several of the things Hallia's done this game seemed far more likely to come from her as town than mafia. I highlighted earlier why I was extremely confident early on she was town. But that vote - and the reasoning - are not good at all IMO

Gotta dig back in my head a bit to answer this:

I like that Hallia prefaced it with an adjustment to her read on Cory, and I understand what she's saying irt Pral: quantity of posts goes down, but they become more dense. There isn't necessarily a decrease in 'content'.

Not a good reason to vote someone, no. But scum!Hallia is honestly more likely to just quote Cory and say "good points here [vote]". She's showing that she's thinking, and for her that's a positive sign even if her ideas are meh sometimes.

Hallia is a hard read in general. I would bank next to nothing on being right about her in this game, but I'm not going to push the easiest lynch bait on the roster for scummy things that I know she is entirely capable of doing as town. I'll offer positive encouragement until I see reasons not to.

Lenlo · November 3, 2015

Just bcause ur involved in the game doesnt mean u shld be offended by zander being obnoxious on an island on pg 27

You... Personal involvement. Emotional involvement. Meaning if hes a donkey to me, maybe just maybe that bugs me and makes me angry at him. What im saying is I dont think thats alignment indicative, which is what your using it for.

I feel your being purposely obtuse.

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2015

I feel the same about u

Gotta wonder if u know what im talking about.

[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

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