Ragnarok Game Thread - Game Over, Town Wins!

[Songstress]

 

Tina, I'm going ask you a very simple question.

 

Who is your strongest town read? Who is your strongest mafia read? And which are you more certain of?

I get what you are asking here, but I don't like it. We don't know the NA's are accurate. We don't know the cop results are matched with their intended targets. I wouldn't trust them until loki is gone.

 

 

There is no reason whatsoever to assume that a cop result on someone is inaccurate.

 

1) This is not advertised as a bastard game.  It's a complex game with weird mechanics, but if the mod tells us "X is town" as a night action result, then X is town, barring X being a godfather. 

 

2) The godfather is dead, and Kivam specifically stated that the role who would have made the godfather view as mafia to the cop was invalidated when Laufey died, therefore, there is not a backup godfather.

 

Some of the results that we receive are not going to be all that useful to us, especially without being allowed to state the information flat-out, but I firmly believe that we can trust the information is correct.

 

---

 

I'm going to go on record as not agreeing to either Talya or Eldrick's plans here.

 

Re: Talya's plan, since it's very likely that ALL night action results, whether generated by town or mafia, are being shuffled and sent to players regardless of alignment (with the possible exception of Loki because who knows) - if everyone states who we targeted which nights, it will allow mafia to match up specific roles to specific players, and take out the town power roles before we're allowed to make use of the information they generate.   If and only if we lynch all mafia would I agree to this suggestion.

 

Re: Eldrick's plan, it feels like a waste of time - there's no compelling reason to believe it's only targeting Loki that causes the night actions to be switched up.  And mafia may need to find and kill Loki in order to win, but if their night kill is going through on the intended target, they have less reason to cooperate with town and every reason NOT to if the target we all agree to is a member of their team. And they're certainly not going to admit on thread that they are the ones who didn't target the right person.  FWIW, I think if we all targeted Mish tonight, the chances are zero that she's mafia, but mafia could choose not to go along with the plan anyway solely because they want to leave it open for confusion.  Accusing someone of being Loki is a fine way to get a mislynch on someone who is too townie to lynch otherwise.

[Songstress]

To those of you that still think I'm Loki, would I be helping figure out what he does if I was? I'm doing everything in my power to figure him out, so we can use the slew of NA's we apparently have floating around to wrap this game up nicely.

 

As as aside, this argument is just as bad when used for 3rd party as it is for mafia.  

 

There is never anything you can say definitively non-town would not do if it gives the appearance of being town.

 

I'm not saying I believe you're Loki.  But this is a terrible argument to make and saying things like this is part of the reason why people tend to read you as scummier even when you're town.

[Songstress]

 

I think JS got away with his because he was saying if someone vowed me he got a cop review of VT. he didn't, he got a tracker result that showed I did not go anywhere. Because he didn't use the information in the way of his result he got away with it.

 

Tina who have you targeted on your nights? Thought you wouldn't be able to say last night, or at least check that first

 

I notice no one was interested in my idea. Nothing to say we can't.

 

Tina - not sure where you get JS trying to get you he told you to ask those questions to kivam.

I also got a tracker result N1, and wasn't allowed to mention names. That's why I'm saying he's full of it.

 

 

The reason I told you to catch up is that he's already admitted essentially that he did not get a tracker result on Talya.  

 

You honestly think if I was making up results I wouldn't check for that?

 

Besides, you essentially did the same thing with your cop view.

 

Not at all, actually.

 

You're making an assumption.

 

And you aren't? Just because I got tracker results and I think a player is vanilla doesn't necessarily mean the two are related.

 

This brings into question what he intended to accomplish by leading people to believe that he had a tracker or role cop type result on Talya.

 

I'd like an answer to that question.

[Songstress]

Ugh.  quote fail.

 

You honestly think if I was making up results I wouldn't check for that?

 

Besides, you essentially did the same thing with your cop view.

 

Not at all, actually.

 

You're making an assumption.

 

And you aren't? Just because I got tracker results and I think a player is vanilla doesn't necessarily mean the two are related.

[Songstress]

AND again.  Sorry for breaking the page.  

 

Let me try doing this another way.

[Songstress]

 

 

You honestly think if I was making up results I wouldn't check for that?

 

Besides, you essentially did the same thing with your cop view.

 

Not at all, actually.

 

You're making an assumption.

 

 

And you aren't? Just because I got tracker results and I think a player is vanilla doesn't necessarily mean the two are related.

 

[Songstress]

SUCCESS!

[Songstress]

What i intended to say AFTER that quote...

 

---

 

This brings into question what he intended to accomplish by leading people to believe that he had a tracker or role cop type result on Talya.

 

I'd like an answer to that question.

[John Snow]

 

No, cause then he couldnt vote wherever he wanted.

 

Im tellin ya, hes not town.

Not sure what you mean here. Who's not town JS?

 

 

In response to the below:

 

Good catch talya. JS shouldn't have been able to say what he did if he actually did get the results he claims.

 

[unvote]

[v]JS [/v]

 

Fyi At work. Not caught up yet.

 

If he's caught up, he can't do what ever he wants. 

 

I think JS got away with his because he was saying if someone vowed me he got a cop review of VT. he didn't, he got a tracker result that showed I did not go anywhere. Because he didn't use the information in the way of his result he got away with it.

 

Tina who have you targeted on your nights? Thought you wouldn't be able to say last night, or at least check that first

 

I notice no one was interested in my idea. Nothing to say we can't.

 

Tina - not sure where you get JS trying to get you he told you to ask those questions to kivam.

 

Bold-seems like a plausible scenario. 

 

 

Another idea is to test if Loki is triggered by targeting him. This would be tested by communally controlling who we target, as in all target the same person. I'm pretty sure all the outright harmful abilities (i.e. vig) are gone. I suggest we all target Mish tonight. think it's safe to say she isn't Loki. If our results are still scrambled, we all target someone else. By then we can determine if it's something Loki reflexively does by being targeted or not.

Everyone please say if you are for or against this idea. I suggest quoting this and adding your name to the list, so we can keep track easily.

 

Eldrick - Yes

 

 

Extremely against. 

 

 

Tina, I'm going ask you a very simple question.

 

Who is your strongest town read? Who is your strongest mafia read? And which are you more certain of?

I get what you are asking here, but I don't like it. We don't know the NA's are accurate. We don't know the cop results are matched with their intended targets. I wouldn't trust them until loki is gone.

 

 

Trying to make us distrust cop reads. Rings of someone that's scared of them. IIRC this is the second time you've done this (might've been someone else earlier, I'll have to check)

 

 

Except if we have to all target the same person a couple things happen.

1) mafia don't have to listen as they benefit more from him than we do.

2) it's an assumption/theory made.off.of nothing. Rather similar to what Wishleste did.

3)Checking one person per night is a very slow strategy that isn't worth it imo. Better to spend our days focusing on catching him then the inevitable debates of who to focus our actions on that day.

1)The idea can be put on back burner, until we get rid of the mafia, if that's really an issue. I don't think it is. They need to find him too.

2) It's not. It's using logic to figure out a problem, by experimenting and checking the results. It's a theory with a way to effectively test it. It's nothing compared to wishleste's strung together assumptions trying to cast shade on someone, and I'm hurt you would even compare the two.

3) of course it is, but our actions currently have 0 reliability. I want to fix that. And until they are accurate, it doesn't matter what we do with them. Might as well use them to test sonething.

 

Of course, this could all be wasted effort if JS is loki. But I'm still preparing for him not being.

 

 

But I thought I had TMI on the Wisest flip? Oh, shoot, I forgot to mention, I'm actually Kiv's alt. 

 

 

Oh and finally I'm against it cause its your idea and I don't think your town

Ok. Say you lynch me, and discover I'm not loki. Would you still dismiss the idea?

 

 

300% still yes. 

[John Snow]

What i intended to say AFTER that quote...

 

---

 

This brings into question what he intended to accomplish by leading people to believe that he had a tracker or role cop type result on Talya.

 

I'd like an answer to that question.

 

I never said that I didn't get a result on Tayla. Don't misrepresent me. One of the scummiest things a player can do.

Are you saying your Mish read wasn't influenced by any results you may or may not have recieved?

[John Snow]

Also, feel free to ask Kiv if she is willing to make inconsistent decisions. It further complicates everything. 

[Talya]

 

 

Tina, I'm going ask you a very simple question.

 

Who is your strongest town read? Who is your strongest mafia read? And which are you more certain of?

I get what you are asking here, but I don't like it. We don't know the NA's are accurate. We don't know the cop results are matched with their intended targets. I wouldn't trust them until loki is gone.

 

 

There is no reason whatsoever to assume that a cop result on someone is inaccurate.

 

1) This is not advertised as a bastard game.  It's a complex game with weird mechanics, but if the mod tells us "X is town" as a night action result, then X is town, barring X being a godfather. 

 

2) The godfather is dead, and Kivam specifically stated that the role who would have made the godfather view as mafia to the cop was invalidated when Laufey died, therefore, there is not a backup godfather.

 

Some of the results that we receive are not going to be all that useful to us, especially without being allowed to state the information flat-out, but I firmly believe that we can trust the information is correct.

 

---

 

I'm going to go on record as not agreeing to either Talya or Eldrick's plans here.

 

Re: Talya's plan, since it's very likely that ALL night action results, whether generated by town or mafia, are being shuffled and sent to players regardless of alignment (with the possible exception of Loki because who knows) - if everyone states who we targeted which nights, it will allow mafia to match up specific roles to specific players, and take out the town power roles before we're allowed to make use of the information they generate.   If and only if we lynch all mafia would I agree to this suggestion.

 

Re: Eldrick's plan, it feels like a waste of time - there's no compelling reason to believe it's only targeting Loki that causes the night actions to be switched up.  And mafia may need to find and kill Loki in order to win, but if their night kill is going through on the intended target, they have less reason to cooperate with town and every reason NOT to if the target we all agree to is a member of their team. And they're certainly not going to admit on thread that they are the ones who didn't target the right person.  FWIW, I think if we all targeted Mish tonight, the chances are zero that she's mafia, but mafia could choose not to go along with the plan anyway solely because they want to leave it open for confusion.  Accusing someone of being Loki is a fine way to get a mislynch on someone who is too townie to lynch otherwise.

 

 

Ok, I see what you mean, I'm thinking of it from a watchers pov, but if someone was tracker it might give them away. Fair point.

[John Snow]

And I know that tracker results exist this game. Hence why I've been against it since it was proposed. 

[Songstress]

 

What i intended to say AFTER that quote...

 

---

 

This brings into question what he intended to accomplish by leading people to believe that he had a tracker or role cop type result on Talya.

 

I'd like an answer to that question.

 

I never said that I didn't get a result on Tayla. Don't misrepresent me. One of the scummiest things a player can do.

Are you saying your Mish read wasn't influenced by any results you may or may not have recieved?

 

 

Yes, I am saying that.

[John Snow]

 

 

What i intended to say AFTER that quote...

 

---

 

This brings into question what he intended to accomplish by leading people to believe that he had a tracker or role cop type result on Talya.

 

I'd like an answer to that question.

 

I never said that I didn't get a result on Tayla. Don't misrepresent me. One of the scummiest things a player can do.

Are you saying your Mish read wasn't influenced by any results you may or may not have recieved?

 

 

Yes, I am saying that.

 

 

Then what you said was intentionally misleading. 

[Songstress]

 

 

 

What i intended to say AFTER that quote...

 

---

 

This brings into question what he intended to accomplish by leading people to believe that he had a tracker or role cop type result on Talya.

 

I'd like an answer to that question.

 

I never said that I didn't get a result on Tayla. Don't misrepresent me. One of the scummiest things a player can do.

Are you saying your Mish read wasn't influenced by any results you may or may not have recieved?

 

 

Yes, I am saying that.

 

 

Then what you said was intentionally misleading. 

 

 

What I said was what I could say with the restrictions Kivam placed on us.  There are things that I definitely cannot say because it would reveal too much information.  I tried to answer your specific question the best I could without breaking the rules.

 

You seem to be implying yet again that your result WAS on Talya, and that you got away with it because you misrepresented the type of result you received.  

 

Here you imply that your assumption that Talya was VT was unrelated to the tracker result:

 

You honestly think if I was making up results I wouldn't check for that?

 

Besides, you essentially did the same thing with your cop view.

 

Not at all, actually.

 

You're making an assumption.

 

And you aren't? Just because I got tracker results and I think a player is vanilla doesn't necessarily mean the two are related.

 

My interpretation of the warning we were given with the results is that Kivam would consider what you posted a violation of the warning if you had actually received a PM stating that Talya went nowhere.    Maybe I'm alone in that interpretation.

[Songstress]

Doggone it, I broke the page again.  Gah. Sorry

[Taborline]

I'm here finally, just reading through the past 10 pages. 

[Songstress]

That quote apparently likes to break the formatting.
 
What I wrote to follow the stupid quote:
 
My interpretation of the warning we were given with the results is that Kivam would consider what you posted a violation of the warning if you had actually received a PM stating that Talya went nowhere.    Maybe I'm alone in that interpretation.

[John Snow]

A) I encourage you to ask Kiv the questions I told Tina to ask. There's always a loophole. In this case, I know that for a fact. The fact that I'm more motivated to find it than anyone who got cop results is either a sad testament to their creativity or indicative of alignment. 

B) I am doing my best to stay within Kiv's rules. I'm smart enough to clear specific statements before I say them. I have not ever said that I didn't get results on Tayla, nor have I said I did get results on Tayla. I simply stated a belief I have. I'm not saying anything that's getting me modkilled. 

[Songstress]

A) I encourage you to ask Kiv the questions I told Tina to ask. There's always a loophole. In this case, I know that for a fact. The fact that I'm more motivated to find it than anyone who got cop results is either a sad testament to their creativity or indicative of alignment. 

B) I am doing my best to stay within Kiv's rules. I'm smart enough to clear specific statements before I say them. I have not ever said that I didn't get results on Tayla, nor have I said I did get results on Tayla. I simply stated a belief I have. I'm not saying anything that's getting me modkilled. 

 

I think you should read what I said earlier in response to your suggestion to Tina.

 

There is a reason why the results I got did not influence my reads.

 

I cannot say more without risking being modkilled.

[John Snow]

 

A) I encourage you to ask Kiv the questions I told Tina to ask. There's always a loophole. In this case, I know that for a fact. The fact that I'm more motivated to find it than anyone who got cop results is either a sad testament to their creativity or indicative of alignment. 

B) I am doing my best to stay within Kiv's rules. I'm smart enough to clear specific statements before I say them. I have not ever said that I didn't get results on Tayla, nor have I said I did get results on Tayla. I simply stated a belief I have. I'm not saying anything that's getting me modkilled. 

 

I think you should read what I said earlier in response to your suggestion to Tina.

 

There is a reason why the results I got did not influence my reads.

 

I cannot say more without risking being modkilled.

 

 

Not what Kiv told me when I asked her if I hypothetically got a cop result. 

[Songstress]

 

 

A) I encourage you to ask Kiv the questions I told Tina to ask. There's always a loophole. In this case, I know that for a fact. The fact that I'm more motivated to find it than anyone who got cop results is either a sad testament to their creativity or indicative of alignment. 

B) I am doing my best to stay within Kiv's rules. I'm smart enough to clear specific statements before I say them. I have not ever said that I didn't get results on Tayla, nor have I said I did get results on Tayla. I simply stated a belief I have. I'm not saying anything that's getting me modkilled. 

 

I think you should read what I said earlier in response to your suggestion to Tina.

 

There is a reason why the results I got did not influence my reads.

 

I cannot say more without risking being modkilled.

 

 

Not what Kiv told me when I asked her if I hypothetically got a cop result. 

 

 

1) Kivam is not a HER.

 

2) Again.  I cannot clarify this more.  There. Is. A. REASON. Why. My. Reads. Were. Not. Affected. By. The. Cop. Result. I. Received.

[John Snow]

*Him. My bad. 

[John Snow]

I understand that you can't say more. I simply encourage you to ask the questions I asked because I know what answer Kiv gave me. If he's changed his mind since you got his PM, then great. If what you're saying is due to other factors, oh well, no harm no foul.