A Tale of Middle Earth: Game OVER

[Talya]

Ok I'm up to page 90 in this game. I don't know if I'll be able to read up in time and I need to go a few places with my roommate soon so I'm just going to give my thoughts as of page 90 and then vote on this whole gladiator situation (saw it the last time I checked in). I've skimmed over the last couple of pages as well to see what arguments others are giving either way.

 

First though a little something from "my time" in the game

Now that I can say this knowing you aren't a wolf...

I have a theory...

This is horse poop angle shooting. When is the last time you were right about something like this? Now look at me role? Still never.

 

That said, I won't be voting Aiel Heart ever in this game but that's for meta reasons. And we've had this discussion...

Where on earth did this come from? I didn't see me being mentioned anywhere in the last few pages before that.

I have not contributed to this game at all thus far and I don't recall ever playing with you so it's odd that you would be able to meta me.

Pointing out weird shenanigans 

 

 

 

I started doing a list based off of where I am with anecdotes, but I'm out of time for that as my roommate wants to go in a few minutes so here's this, which is more gut reads based on my memories and notes but it's better than nothing. Once I actually go through and look at the posts referenced in notes it'll be a little more precise and may shift a bit

 

Firebird

Sooh

Talya

Eldrick

Krak

Leelou

Tina

 

Alot

Thane

Taborline

 

Cass/Monstr

dice

Pizza

seph

Yates.2

AlannaLynn

 

Aj

Verbal

Hallia

 

 

I've not liked Pizza for a lot of the game, but a lot of it was weird feeling from his posts. There have been posts I've definitely not liked about Verbal, plus I feel like he's been in the middle of some thicker tangles, and so we could learn a bit more based on how he flips. I don't like either of them, but I feel like Verbal is the better option from where I stand. 

 

[Vote]Verbal[/Vote]

Sorry the above post didn't show it's colours in the spoiler bit, so here it is

[Sooh]

I hope AH can get in here today and clear up what she was thinking when she wrote that post. If indeed she made an honest mistake and just thought she saw something in that post, and WK panicked and thought Tabor might have claimed something he had to follow up on that... 

[Talya]

I can see WK's reaction, when you don't know if anyone you are taking over from has claimed anything, lol

[Sooh]

I can see WK's reaction, when you don't know if anyone you are taking over from has claimed anything, lol

Exactly!

 

Did he even know Leelou was confirmed double voter?

[Aiel Heart]

I got the entire thing about the claim from this post:
 

 

So there's no one willing to help out with a game summary. That's interesting. I don't like Andrej's response to my arrival at all - a Villager would have been eager to help me adjust to the game, not immediately swing at low-hanging fruit who is only being voted near as I can tell for not being here. Why vote me as soon as I sub in and show up? That's a wolf greet. But yeah, I could see where a wolf might be as eager to seem helpful as a Villager. It's somewhat surprising no one offered to help.
 
Without seeing more from Aiel in the interim, and with no other votes currently on Andrej, I'll hang with Pizza on [v]Eternal Phoenix2[/v].
 
What's the case on Tina, please.

Did I just read too much into that? I took it as a claim considering Leelou's place in this game which I'm sure WK is aware of at this point.
 
Page 146 post 2918

 

It looked like it was formatted exactly the same as Leelou's x2. Looking at it closer, I can see how I was mistaken, and it means the second Firebird and that was just formatted differently than I'm used to. I didn't feel I was drawing extra attention to the double vote because it was right there for everyone to see, and I just merely put it in my list. 

 

 

 

 

Pizza, can you please just lay out what you have done each night? I feel like I've either misunderstood somewhere along the line or it just hasn't been very clear.

 

 

I'll try to get the rest of my anecdotes done here quickly

[Talya]

Not sure, he might have seen it on the OP but he didn't say, at least I don't remember him saying.

[Talya]

the above was to Sooh!

[Cass]

/Snip

 

Also, AielHear's list is indicating I've claimed a doublevote role? I guess it shouldn't be too hard to go back and check. Again, it would make it easier for me if one of you would simply tell me what Taborline said, 'cause describing it as a "2x voting ability" is a wee off, though maybe not by much. 

 

 

 

 

 

Team 1 - I would be thinking : Tina, Cass, Dice and another? AH/Sooh

 

@WK - The double voter was Leelou, on the Gladiator vote, she activated it/it was activated which meant she had two votes and put them both on Verb. I have only ever seen a double voter as Mafia, but they were always hidden, people could guess, but Leelou's was out in the open from the off. This is reason I tend to think town, rahter than wolfie.

 

Well, one thing that seems sure to me, that Pizza is acknowledging, is that the Village still hangs on a knife - today requires unity. Our only hope is for the wolves/mafia to target each other. As my ability will become apparent today, I'll go ahead and half-out. And, yes, I know half-outing is often a bad strategy. 

I may or may not have two particular votes today, and it will become apparent if activated in the count. I'm still debating with myself on revealing more, as my action can affect either Village or Mafia voting. Let's just say I need Village help in making sure I pick a right target. 

 

And, yes, once the vote reveal is clarified in an official vote count, Scum will be able to adjust to it according as they need. I probably have already given them too much information with which to work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Team 1 - I would be thinking : Tina, Cass, Dice and another? AH/Sooh

 

@WK - The double voter was Leelou, on the Gladiator vote, she activated it/it was activated which meant she had two votes and put them both on Verb. I have only ever seen a double voter as Mafia, but they were always hidden, people could guess, but Leelou's was out in the open from the off. This is reason I tend to think town, rahter than wolfie.

 

Well, one thing that seems sure to me, that Pizza is acknowledging, is that the Village still hangs on a knife - today requires unity. Our only hope is for the wolves/mafia to target each other. As my ability will become apparent today, I'll go ahead and half-out. And, yes, I know half-outing is often a bad strategy. I may or may not have two particular votes today, and it will become apparent if activated in the count. I'm still debating with myself on revealing more, as my action can affect either Village or Mafia voting. Let's just say I need Village help in making sure I pick a right target. 

 

And, yes, once the vote reveal is clarified in an official vote count, Scum will be able to adjust to it according as they need. I probably have already given them too much information with which to work.

 

 

so you are a double voter...I need to go and read AH or you are both on a team.

 

No, not a double voter, a vote thief of a sort. I have already chosen a player whose vote is mine today, to place where I will. 

 

 

That is actually a scum role. 

 

it can be either leelou. his ability doesn't mean he is scum.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vote_Thief

 

 

Okay, but look at this from my perspective. I know I'm town and a double voter, why would there be a town vote thief as well? 

 

 

Catching up before bed after a big day so I don't have a lot to add except:

 

 

1. Obviously Leelou and WK are not on the same team/are most probably not the same alignment in this game;

 

 

2. Reading the Wiki, the thing that concerns me is where it says (bold/underlined):

 

"Town-aligned Vote Thieves can steal other players' votes. This has no practical positive effect except possibly to stop quickhammers in LyLo and/or single-handedly decide the game if only three players are alive. It can, however, have a nasty negative effect if the Vote Thief is killed during the Night, rendering one player Voteless during the next Day.

Scum-aligned Vote Thieves have one more vote to their faction's credit as long as the Vote Thief is alive. In order to balance this like in a normal game, this means the scum team has one fewer member than usual and gets hosed if the Vote Thief dies."

 

I interpret the difference between Town and Scum-aligned Vote Thieves as Scum-aligned get to keep and use the stolen vote - which is what WK says he can do in the quotes above.

Have I misinterpreted here? Can Vote Thieves use the stolen vote in either alignment?

 

3. 

 

I don't like that Pizza tries to push that roles don't reflect alignment. Yet the whole reason Tina was lynched was her Nexus role. Vote Thief IS a mafia aligned rolePizza detracting from that is highly suspect.

 

On Wiki it says it's mostly town, but who knows with Darthe

 

 

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with EP2.0  here, or both. Pizza is starting to weird me out a little and I think roles probably are indicative of alignment, if you can understand them.

At the same time, EP2.0 saying that Vote Theif IS a mafia aligned role is contradictory to the wiki which says "Alignment: any" and "Vote Thief is usually Town-aligned." I'm not sure who's pushing what agenda more falsely here.

[Cass]

Dicetosser versus Alotta Phoenix wagons today, imo.

 

No one else. Village only has so many votes to spread around.

 

Dice would be a bad counterwagon IMO. Not sure if this is still current, considering the vote trains seem to have moved on, but unless Dice has greatly changed his scum game in a very short space of time, after not changing it since forever (as far as I know), I'm still mostly sure he's Town here.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Awake.

 

Cass, EP?

[Aiel Heart]

Did this between last nigth and today and some of it was done hurriedly. 

 

 

Talya—I still feel like Talya has been looking very critically at everything throughout the play, and even though I haven’t always agreed with her opinions, I do get a very townie feel from her posts, analysis and questions

Leelou—basically confirmed town at this point. Asking many questions, has had correct reads a few times. Something that is kind of snagging me though is that I don’t recall ever actually seeing a case on Tina, but Leelou gradually decided Tina was scum was pushing that really hard. Still, her play comes as Townie to me.

*Dice—started out by looking around at a lot of people when he first game in. Voted Tina early on. Not very active due to various things but a lot of questioning and clarifying when he’s here which has generally come across as town to me. Linking of Cass and Sooh… I’m actually like a lot of his posts and he’s seeming slightly townie to me

Taborline/White Knight—Seems like a silly one. I didn’t like how a lot of people responded to him first coming in—it seemed like they were trying to set him up as an easy lynch target. Then there’s the whole misunderstanding I had over the double vote, and it turns out he’s a vote stealer. I don’t like guessing affiliations based on roles, as I know some mods do really weird things (myself included) when it comes to roles and affiliations. He has been trying to catch up, give his own reads, and I actually liked the way he responded to me. He could have very easily just gone along with a double vote, and made it appear as truth with his stolen vote. Slight town read—going to keep watching him

Krak—hasn’t given a great deal of thought to the game. Most of his posts don’t have a great deal of meat, but he has pointed out a few things, asked a few questions. Admitted he was gut reading more than anything else at one point. Really still a null read—I’m not taking Pizza’s word that he’s town

**Seph—haven’t noticed much more since the last time I gave reads. Had him as green before, but will just leave us null until I can ISO

**Cass—I didn’t really notice much more about her since the last time I gave reads. Need to ISO, brick red until I can look into her more.

Andrej—something really really really has bugged me about you, and I wish I could figure out exactly what it is. He has done a lot of asking questions and expanding and clarifying, but I also feel like some of his posts have been… Trying to take up attention, and lead people in the wrong direction—will try to find specific examples later, but that’s just what I remember from reading some of the conversations. A lot of linking and addressing. He’s going along with a lot of what Verbal says. Something feels very very off thought. Bacon red until I can articulate this better.

**AllannaLynn—I feel like there’s been a couple of times when she’s piggy backed off of other people’s opinions, and has also tunneled quite a bit. Didn’t like her before, don’t like her now. Need to ISO, brick red until I can look into her more.


*Thane—a lot of working and catching up, commenting on little things here and there, called out Pizza’s “if I were wolf…” shenanigans early on. Didn’t like Leelou and pushed for her vote. Yates did his fake read on Thane/Hally. I wonder if there was a reason for that or if it was just more random.com. Pushing pizza and leelou… A set of reads at 2340 (what a fun number), and another at 2585 (the blue and orange one)—he said that he thought 2/3 of the bottom 12 were probably wolf Can we have a little more info on which of those 12 you are looking at and why? In 2634 he liked Aj and Firebird.2, though he doesn’t give explanation as to why (besides they both “post very townie”), and doesn’t really give thoughts on the rest of us either, but he does say he is busy. Post 2889 made me laugh but also felt like it was reaching a bit. Says seph would be a good candidate for “howling quite a bit” and that is the last post that shows up in the search. Not liking him today. Bacon red for now.

*Hallia—she’s been tunneling on Sooh a lot lately, though the implications of this I’m not sure of yet. The interactions on page 141 were interesting, though I’m not entirely sure why. I didn’t like the vote on WK on page 2928 at all. She’s not been randomly popping in quite as much, and is giving more of her own thoughts, but that she’s been sticking out to me so much is keeping her at bacon red.

*Sooh—looking at dice, saying that she is defending herself and voting on people she finds scummy, which is dice for mostly meta reasons which it takes her a while to extrapolate on, not much giving reads on other people until pushed to do so, though she is giving her thoughts on overall things like the gladiator situation. Reads in post 2501 are worth keeping in my pocket for later. I haven’t liked a whole lot of her reasons for voting, and the newbie protection is wearing thin. Something about the tone of her votes also appears to be changing, and it’s seeming less like new townie nervous in the spotlight and more like new mafia nervous in the spotlight. Bacon red—will look at again more closely later

*Alot Eternal Phoenix 2.0—Ooooh Firebird. Ok, so he’s always been a rather off the wall and emotional player. He’s had emo-meltdowns as both scum and town, though this one has felt slightly more scummy to me. This, plus he has made a great effort to point out how consistent he’s being. Consistency is ok, but his cases haven’t developed a great deal in my opinion, as they should over time in such a game. That and it’s also interesting how he seems to be tunneling on Leelou and even giving her claim a chance. Questioning it, fine. Bascially ignoring that it could have any merit, not good. Tomato scum red.

**Pizza—I do not like you. I do not like how everyone is just using your insane claim, or how you seem to have such control over the game right now. You’re trying to hard to prove yourself town by saying what you would do “if you were mafia” and trying to seem like a big brother town to everyone by giving advice and talking very elaborately and I’m going to look more closely at your cases and claims later and figure out where something line up because I know something insn’t lining up and I don’t like it.


*Did in first sit down yesterday
**Were hurriedly done in ten minutes

 

 

 

 

No one would get behind a Pizza lynch today, so I'm going to go with a [v]Firebird[/v]

[Aiel Heart]

Oooo the new tag worked 

[Cass]

EP - Votes Tab, because not participating is the most anti town thing in this game. voting an active was always used for getting them to post. I think actually trying to get them lynched means that if they are they leave little information for the game to analyse, hardly any votes etc, so I really don't agree with this reasoning, let mafia have them, it may stop them getting anyone useful. But if mafia think they are good for a lynch like this then maybe they won't.

 

I agree with the general idea here and stated earlier that I felt the push on Tabor felt too 'easy'. Not sure what you meant by the last sentence Talya but scum might also be more likely to push an easy inactive lynch ITT rather than have to deal with them in a NK. 

 

I don't think the same applies to a lynch on WK now, but the earlier push and train on Tabor may be worth looking at later on. Voters were: Thane, AJ (moved to Tina), EP2.0 and Tina.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I got the entire thing about the claim from this post:

 

 

So there's no one willing to help out with a game summary. That's interesting. I don't like Andrej's response to my arrival at all - a Villager would have been eager to help me adjust to the game, not immediately swing at low-hanging fruit who is only being voted near as I can tell for not being here. Why vote me as soon as I sub in and show up? That's a wolf greet. But yeah, I could see where a wolf might be as eager to seem helpful as a Villager. It's somewhat surprising no one offered to help.

 

Without seeing more from Aiel in the interim, and with no other votes currently on Andrej, I'll hang with Pizza on [v]Eternal Phoenix2[/v].

 

What's the case on Tina, please.

Did I just read too much into that? I took it as a claim considering Leelou's place in this game which I'm sure WK is aware of at this point.

 

Page 146 post 2918

 

It looked like it was formatted exactly the same as Leelou's x2. Looking at it closer, I can see how I was mistaken, and it means the second Firebird and that was just formatted differently than I'm used to. I didn't feel I was drawing extra attention to the double vote because it was right there for everyone to see, and I just merely put it in my list. 

 

 

 

 

Pizza, can you please just lay out what you have done each night? I feel like I've either misunderstood somewhere along the line or it just hasn't been very clear.

 

 

I'll try to get the rest of my anecdotes done here quickly

 

 

Night one scan: Krak and Thane, they're both town. I random.org'ed those choices because I refuse to metagame someone with scans that early.

 

Night two action: I soft-claimed that I had used my protection on Krak and EP version1.0, because I didn't want to be clear which joat power I used. However I knew I had been roleblocked in post 2603. Then I IMMEDIATELY voted for Eternal Phoenix, Alot's replacement, in 2604. He claims to be a vanilla townie.

 

In 2614 I allowed for it to be Hallia as well and told her teammates to bus her. But it's always EP before Hallia, where I sit. And EP didn't vote for Hallia even after everything has been revealed, which is telling.

 

In 2619 I point out EP didn't just suddenly become bad at villaging, but that's the only explanation for his lack of suspicion on Hallia who didn't die last night after that claim, from his perspective, if he's a vanilla townie, and after what I claim.

 

2971 I point out that EP is scum, but you always lynch Tina after her claim. This is the only time I unvote EP. 2972. Unvote rather than to pile onto Tina because I wanted to see if any further vote movement was made to spare Tina, but I had a vote to lynch Tina prepared in case of any shenanigans.

 

2975 I tinfoil that Cass flinched, but actually, given who EP is, Cass looks great for voting to lynch EP.

 

2978, I have EP and Hallia both as wolves, and that's who I block Night Three.

 

Night Three action:

 

3150 I point out that EP and Hallia both were roleblocked last night by me, and return to voting for EP.

 

=======================================

 

That's my claimed actions and why I did them.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I sincerely doubt the mods are going to count a "vote: Firebird" vote.

 

Subtle, but genius, Aiel Heart. Well played.

 

Now put his name in properly and maybe I'll forget you're a wolf for the next 24 hours and ask you who else is on his team.

 

You have Thane and Andrej in brick red, and that makes you....

 

Well, it makes you something. I was going to say wolf, but you'd think the wolves would have gotten my whole THANE IS A VILLAGER BY SCAN thing by now.

 

Unless he's a friggen godfather, in which case I throw my hands up in the air because I just don't care anymore.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Note: Godfather would scan as a vanilla townie, or a Nexus role is at least likely to scan as vanilla townie since there are several of those claimed and flipped.

[Cass]

Final random on the fly thoughts before going to bed. 

 

- Talya's sounding more Town in tone and volume of interaction

- At this point I'm probably more likely to believe Leelou is Town over WK (Needs ISOs/more role investigation)

- Still happy with my scum lean on Alot/EP2.0 

- Pizza's idea to peek WK is ok, but like AH I want to at least see a full run-down of Pizza's NA's or have him clear up his claim by EoD as promised

- Dice, get off my back - I'm not scum and it's unfair to link me with anyone based on problems you had/were having with Sooh canvassing for other people's read on you. 

 

And that's it, I'm out. Sorry guys, trying to add more and not disappear completely during VLA, but I should really not be up at almost 3am, especially this week. 

[Leelou]

Note: Godfather would scan as a vanilla townie, or a Nexus role is at least likely to scan as vanilla townie since there are several of those claimed and flipped.

 

Vanilla townie? 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't get role names though, or name-names.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

Note: Godfather would scan as a vanilla townie, or a Nexus role is at least likely to scan as vanilla townie since there are several of those claimed and flipped.

 

Vanilla townie? 

 

 

I only get alignment, I don't get role or name. But in games where there exists a Godfather and also, a detective who scans for roles, Godfathers typically scan as vanilla town. No other powers are claimed.

 

So to be safe, Godfathers should claim vanilla townie. Nexus roles, really shouldn't actually claim a role, just affiliation.

[Leelou]

 

 

Note: Godfather would scan as a vanilla townie, or a Nexus role is at least likely to scan as vanilla townie since there are several of those claimed and flipped.

 

Vanilla townie? 

 

 

I only get alignment, I don't get role or name. But in games where there exists a Godfather and also, a detective who scans for roles, Godfathers typically scan as vanilla town. No other powers are claimed.

 

So to be safe, Godfathers should claim vanilla townie. Nexus roles, really shouldn't actually claim a role, just affiliation.

 

 

No, not really. Role cop is typically a scum role and is not in a always game with a godfather. 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Leelou absolutely is town, and vote-stealing reads as a scum role to me. It's neutral for villagers to have unless they steal a scum's vote, but it's basically always useful for scums.

 

I would blind lynch WK rather than burn a scan on him, that role claim is terrible.

 

But, it's also not the highest priority wolf in the game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

 

Note: Godfather would scan as a vanilla townie, or a Nexus role is at least likely to scan as vanilla townie since there are several of those claimed and flipped.

 

Vanilla townie? 

 

 

I only get alignment, I don't get role or name. But in games where there exists a Godfather and also, a detective who scans for roles, Godfathers typically scan as vanilla town. No other powers are claimed.

 

So to be safe, Godfathers should claim vanilla townie. Nexus roles, really shouldn't actually claim a role, just affiliation.

 

 

No, not really. Role cop is typically a scum role and is not in a always game with a godfather. 

 

 

I come from faraway places where they can exist in a game and not both be scum roles.

 

But I see your point, you know DM better than me, so I trust that you're correct.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Demonstration of the vote-thief powers in a pro-village fashion today would at least clear up that he's not the roleblocker I seek.

 

Agreed, WK? Use it wisely or let it be your noose tomorrow.

[Leelou]

He claims to have already taken a vote, yet he hasn't moved it. I'm not liking this at all.