[Advanced] Arthurian Mafia

[Nynaeve]

Sili is trending up from light town read to solid town read. He's way too hyper to be scum imo.

[Nynaeve]

I didn't get around to doing much in the sense of rereading. Some heavy family issues came up.... plus feeling crappy for the past two days. And it doesn't help that I'm also in another game and doing some graphics for the Empys. I'm gonna see if I can manage it tomorrow. Beyond that I'm trying to check in as much as I can and keep current. [/whine]

[Sili Quirrels]

Sili is trending up from light town read to solid town read. He's way too hyper to be scum imo.

I was only a light town read?

[Clovdyx]

I'm not in love with Lily's play this game, but I'm not a fan of that wagon right now.  I feel pretty good about lynching Sili right now, and I'm still basically null on Barm - one of very few people I can say that about.  I have Zashara down as middle of my town reads, but I think the reasoning for her vote was bad; I thought Lily's reasoning on Darthe was pretty well-reflected in thread.  

 

He HAD admitted to skimming, and I don't see an argument for the whole Nyn/Lily vote thing being "pro-town".  I probably wouldn't have used the word "weasel", but I got the impression he was trying to talk his way out of accusations, rather than actually refuting them.  

 

 

Zashara - can you elaborate more on how you feel she's misrepping him?

[Sili Quirrels]

Your entire argument for me is I defended Darthe, in an innocuous and well-intentioned way, but I guess because you wouldn't have done what I did I deserve to be lynched.

 

W/e

[Nynaeve]

 

Sili is trending up from light town read to solid town read. He's way too hyper to be scum imo.

I was only a light town read?

 

 

Yep

[Nynaeve]

I'm not in love with Lily's play this game, but I'm not a fan of that wagon right now.  I feel pretty good about lynching Sili right now, and I'm still basically null on Barm - one of very few people I can say that about.  I have Zashara down as middle of my town reads, but I think the reasoning for her vote was bad; I thought Lily's reasoning on Darthe was pretty well-reflected in thread.

 

He HAD admitted to skimming, and I don't see an argument for the whole Nyn/Lily vote thing being "pro-town".  I probably wouldn't have used the word "weasel", but I got the impression he was trying to talk his way out of accusations, rather than actually refuting them.  

 

 

Agreed with the bolded.

[Clovdyx]

No, my entire argument for you is your play doesn't seem to make sense to me from a town POV, and your reads and arguments don't seem to reflect actions in the thread.  When I ask you for clarification, you haven't been able to give me much to have confidence in where you're coming from.

 

Look back at the interactions with Darthe and Verbal.  I got the impression you were town reading him - you said this wasn't the case - and then you said he was null.  Okay.  He gave you some long, drawn out answers that didn't really explain ANYTHING and you said "good answers" and felt better about him.  Verbal continued to pressure him, and you immediately wrote his vote off as lynching Darthe for bad play, despite the fact that Verbal explained why he reached the conclusion he did.

 

Then you said Verbal twisted the interactions between you and me.  Where?  You claimed Verbal said scum are more likely to not care about the game; he said scum are less likely to care who gets lynched.  That's an objectively true statement about the nature of the game.

 

More recently, you've been acting like Darthe is a considerable scum suspect - and you appropriately have him listed as such - but you still seem content to push people who are treating him as such.  Look at your reads list from Friday - Lily and Leelou null, Barm and Verbal as strong scum.  Before Barm moved to Lily, those were the four on Darthe.  If you're so willing to move on Darthe, I don't understand how you can use Verbal's certainty as a point against him.

[Clovdyx]

Your entire argument for me is I defended Darthe, in an innocuous and well-intentioned way, but I guess because you wouldn't have done what I did I deserve to be lynched.

 

W/e

 

Furthermore, you dismissing my arguments against you as pushing you because I wouldn't have played it the same way is either you just blatantly misrepping me, you not caring what I have to say, or you throwing a fit because I dare to push you.

[Sili Quirrels]

No, my entire argument for you is your play doesn't seem to make sense to me from a town POV, and your reads and arguments don't seem to reflect actions in the thread.  When I ask you for clarification, you haven't been able to give me much to have confidence in where you're coming from.

 

Look back at the interactions with Darthe and Verbal.  I got the impression you were town reading him - you said this wasn't the case - and then you said he was null.  Okay.  He gave you some long, drawn out answers that didn't really explain ANYTHING and you said "good answers" and felt better about him.  Verbal continued to pressure him, and you immediately wrote his vote off as lynching Darthe for bad play, despite the fact that Verbal explained why he reached the conclusion he did.

 

Then you said Verbal twisted the interactions between you and me.  Where?  You claimed Verbal said scum are more likely to not care about the game; he said scum are less likely to care who gets lynched.  That's an objectively true statement about the nature of the game.

 

More recently, you've been acting like Darthe is a considerable scum suspect - and you appropriately have him listed as such - but you still seem content to push people who are treating him as such.  Look at your reads list from Friday - Lily and Leelou null, Barm and Verbal as strong scum.  Before Barm moved to Lily, those were the four on Darthe.  If you're so willing to move on Darthe, I don't understand how you can use Verbal's certainty as a point against him.

You are so obviously not up to date with the thread or reading what I actually post, or even the examples I give for what I mean when you ask for clarification (you never respond to any of them so lol), that I dont know what to make of this. Ive gotten a lot of flack for defending darthe with a rand chance to be town from what was (FROM MY PERSPECTIVE) a bad case that im more annoyed than anything.

 

Im not pushing anyone right now. I never considered darthe a considerable scum suspect (dont know where you get that from). I dont use verbals certainty against darthe ever. My list i gave was wiped clean of rubbish spew, and focused only on the content of each respective player. and i told you once darthe looked better because of verb, NOT WORSE.

 

In respects to verbal, i did not immediately do anything about his reasons, vote, etc. Eventually his 100% confidence gave me bad vibes, and then i went after him.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Your entire argument for me is I defended Darthe, in an innocuous and well-intentioned way, but I guess because you wouldn't have done what I did I deserve to be lynched.

 

W/e

 

Furthermore, you dismissing my arguments against you as pushing you because I wouldn't have played it the same way is either you just blatantly misrepping me, you not caring what I have to say, or you throwing a fit because I dare to push you.

 

WELL until now youve never made a case. Its been a lot of prodding, interactions, and questions.

 

You dont respond to my answers. so what do i do with you?

[Clovdyx]

 

No, my entire argument for you is your play doesn't seem to make sense to me from a town POV, and your reads and arguments don't seem to reflect actions in the thread.  When I ask you for clarification, you haven't been able to give me much to have confidence in where you're coming from.

 

Look back at the interactions with Darthe and Verbal.  I got the impression you were town reading him - you said this wasn't the case - and then you said he was null.  Okay.  He gave you some long, drawn out answers that didn't really explain ANYTHING and you said "good answers" and felt better about him.  Verbal continued to pressure him, and you immediately wrote his vote off as lynching Darthe for bad play, despite the fact that Verbal explained why he reached the conclusion he did.

 

Then you said Verbal twisted the interactions between you and me.  Where?  You claimed Verbal said scum are more likely to not care about the game; he said scum are less likely to care who gets lynched.  That's an objectively true statement about the nature of the game.

 

More recently, you've been acting like Darthe is a considerable scum suspect - and you appropriately have him listed as such - but you still seem content to push people who are treating him as such.  Look at your reads list from Friday - Lily and Leelou null, Barm and Verbal as strong scum.  Before Barm moved to Lily, those were the four on Darthe.  If you're so willing to move on Darthe, I don't understand how you can use Verbal's certainty as a point against him.

You are so obviously not up to date with the thread or reading what I actually post, or even the examples I give for what I mean when you ask for clarification (you never respond to any of them so lol), that I dont know what to make of this. Ive gotten a lot of flack for defending darthe with a rand chance to be town from what was (FROM MY PERSPECTIVE) a bad case that im more annoyed than anything.

 

Im not pushing anyone right now. I never considered darthe a considerable scum suspect (dont know where you get that from). I dont use verbals certainty against darthe ever. My list i gave was wiped clean of rubbish spew, and focused only on the content of each respective player. and i told you once darthe looked better because of verb, NOT WORSE.

 

In respects to verbal, i did not immediately do anything about his reasons, vote, etc. Eventually his 100% confidence gave me bad vibes, and then i went after him.

 

 

Okay.  You've never had him as a considerable scum suspect?  I got it from this list.

 

Arranged linearly:

 

Strong Town Leans:

MrsClov

Clov

Nyn

Aj

Zash

 

Weak Town Leans:

Yates

 

Null:

Lily

Leelou

 

Weak Scum Leans:

Dice

Thane

Darthe

 

Strong Scum Leans:

Barm

Verbal

 

 

Now, I'm not going to pretend to be inside your head, but I would ASSUME that people at the top of any given list is the one you feel best about, and the bottom being the worst, in that group - for example, MrsClov would be your strongest town read.  Verbal is a stronger scum read than Barm.  With that position, Darthe would be the strongest of your "weak scum leans" and his position implies that he's almost - though not quite - in the "strong scum lean" list.  I would label that as being a considerable suspect.

 

In regards to the certainty issue, "him" means Verbal in that sentence.  I don't see how you can seemingly be suspecting of Darthe, and yet use Verbal's certainty as a point against VERBAL.

 

I'll also point out how four hours after Darthe began getting votes (Verbal, Leelou, and Barm) you dismissed them as being based on them thinking he's playing bad.  Whether that's "immediately" or not is a debate I don't care to have, but don't pretend you spent an enormous amount of time discussing their thought processes with them.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

Your entire argument for me is I defended Darthe, in an innocuous and well-intentioned way, but I guess because you wouldn't have done what I did I deserve to be lynched.

 

W/e

 

Furthermore, you dismissing my arguments against you as pushing you because I wouldn't have played it the same way is either you just blatantly misrepping me, you not caring what I have to say, or you throwing a fit because I dare to push you.

 

WELL until now youve never made a case. Its been a lot of prodding, interactions, and questions.

 

You dont respond to my answers. so what do i do with you?

 

 

Actually I did it two days ago.  You responded with "Clov need to read more carefully."

[MrsClov]

Going back through posts for the sake of my notes and the following made me curious. 
 

 

 

 

Notes from reading that discussion about Zashara earlier...

 

Zashara - Says she'd get worried if Nyn had good feelz about her. Zashara picked option 3 from Clov's questions: 3) You don't believe any townie would feel good about anybody at this stage? Doesn't react the best to pressure, but after Clov gives an example, she seems to respond better. Explains she doesn't like relying on meta. 

 

Nyn - Did some research on Zashara's game on DM, noticed difference from last game. After some more interaction after Clov's questions and the gif is posted, Nyn votes Zashara. Doesn't like that Zashara was least invested in the conversation. 

 

Clov - Asked directed questions, later explained to show how Zashara responded will show her thought process as to how she treats people who are town reading other players this early in the game.  Gives example for Zashara, posts conclusion on what he found. Answers Verbal that Zashara showed some progress towards understanding his point. 

 

Mrs Clov - Doesn't like that Zashara was responding with GIFs (I agree btw). Asks when it is acceptable to have town reads. Thinks Clov is arguing semantics. 

 

AJ - Doesn't think Zashara was responding great, but thinks he gets what she meant. AJ is also calling semantics on Clov. 

 

Sili - Peanut gallery chime ins. Reads Zashara as hot headed, AJ does as well. Thinks Clov is making sense. 

 

Verbal - Doesn't know where Clov got this from in Zashara's postings - 3) She shows some interest in understanding where people are coming from when they have different POV's.

 

Barm - Only answered question directed at him, did not mention the discussion at all. 

 

Lily & Dice - just state confusion. 

 

---

 

Okay, so thoughts as of right now, Zashara looks like she initially was not responding well to pressure, but after awhile she started answering better. I don't know her, so I don't know how to gauge her reactions yet. Clov appeared to be arguing semantics, but I do like that he was trying to get the discussion going. I like that Nyn did some research into the last game Zashara played on DM, she seems to be posting naturally and is not having a problem getting involved in the discussion. Getting a good vibe from her. Null from Lily and Dice, not an unusual comment from either of them, but I'd like to see more from them. I'm not liking that Barm only answered a question directed at him about meta and ignored the rest of the discussion. Hate to say this, but I actually think I'm feeling okay about Sili right now. AJ really hasn't done anything for me yet, he could easily be any alignment making these posts. I liked that Mrs Clov was calling Clov out on the semantic, still need to see more to judge. Same goes for Verbal. 

 

[v]Barm[/v] - come out and play

 

Verb - Darthe is a good option. What do you think of Barm not really engaging in the game? 

 

 

 

Normal.  He wasn't engaged early on when I hydra'd with him, nor was he in the TV game I played with him & Zasha.  He is not a significant D1 contributor.  He plays like I used to - ramping up as time goes on.

 

I ended up changing this style when I came back from my long hiatus, but Barm still uses it.

 

 

TL;DR - null for Barm

 

Okay, but if he doesn't actually start to contribute soon, I'm moving my vote back to him. 

 

[unvote]

 

[v]Darthe[/v]

 

 

 

Darthe hardly ever makes sense, but uses worse logic as scum.

 

 

 

 

I kind of had her as null because of mostly spammy content, but her reads made me feel a little better about her. However, now that I've reread her posts, it seems strange that she'd give reasons and thoughts as to why she was voting Barm, but when Verbal says Barm is null for him LeeLou drops her vote instantly. She then proceeds to put her vote on someone she's barely even mentioned (Darthe) at that point and gives no reasoning as to why. I haven't really seen much from her since.  

Thoughts?

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

Your entire argument for me is I defended Darthe, in an innocuous and well-intentioned way, but I guess because you wouldn't have done what I did I deserve to be lynched.

 

W/e

 

Furthermore, you dismissing my arguments against you as pushing you because I wouldn't have played it the same way is either you just blatantly misrepping me, you not caring what I have to say, or you throwing a fit because I dare to push you.

 

WELL until now youve never made a case. Its been a lot of prodding, interactions, and questions.

 

You dont respond to my answers. so what do i do with you?

 

 

Actually I did it two days ago.  You responded with "Clov need to read more carefully."

 

I don't think you even know what I mean.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

No, my entire argument for you is your play doesn't seem to make sense to me from a town POV, and your reads and arguments don't seem to reflect actions in the thread.  When I ask you for clarification, you haven't been able to give me much to have confidence in where you're coming from.

 

Look back at the interactions with Darthe and Verbal.  I got the impression you were town reading him - you said this wasn't the case - and then you said he was null.  Okay.  He gave you some long, drawn out answers that didn't really explain ANYTHING and you said "good answers" and felt better about him.  Verbal continued to pressure him, and you immediately wrote his vote off as lynching Darthe for bad play, despite the fact that Verbal explained why he reached the conclusion he did.

 

Then you said Verbal twisted the interactions between you and me.  Where?  You claimed Verbal said scum are more likely to not care about the game; he said scum are less likely to care who gets lynched.  That's an objectively true statement about the nature of the game.

 

More recently, you've been acting like Darthe is a considerable scum suspect - and you appropriately have him listed as such - but you still seem content to push people who are treating him as such.  Look at your reads list from Friday - Lily and Leelou null, Barm and Verbal as strong scum.  Before Barm moved to Lily, those were the four on Darthe.  If you're so willing to move on Darthe, I don't understand how you can use Verbal's certainty as a point against him.

You are so obviously not up to date with the thread or reading what I actually post, or even the examples I give for what I mean when you ask for clarification (you never respond to any of them so lol), that I dont know what to make of this. Ive gotten a lot of flack for defending darthe with a rand chance to be town from what was (FROM MY PERSPECTIVE) a bad case that im more annoyed than anything.

 

Im not pushing anyone right now. I never considered darthe a considerable scum suspect (dont know where you get that from). I dont use verbals certainty against darthe ever. My list i gave was wiped clean of rubbish spew, and focused only on the content of each respective player. and i told you once darthe looked better because of verb, NOT WORSE.

 

In respects to verbal, i did not immediately do anything about his reasons, vote, etc. Eventually his 100% confidence gave me bad vibes, and then i went after him.

 

 

Okay.  You've never had him as a considerable scum suspect?  I got it from this list.

 

Arranged linearly:

 

Strong Town Leans:

MrsClov

Clov

Nyn

Aj

Zash

 

Weak Town Leans:

Yates

 

Null:

Lily

Leelou

 

Weak Scum Leans:

Dice

Thane

Darthe

 

Strong Scum Leans:

Barm

Verbal

 

 

Now, I'm not going to pretend to be inside your head, but I would ASSUME that people at the top of any given list is the one you feel best about, and the bottom being the worst, in that group - for example, MrsClov would be your strongest town read.  Verbal is a stronger scum read than Barm.  With that position, Darthe would be the strongest of your "weak scum leans" and his position implies that he's almost - though not quite - in the "strong scum lean" list.  I would label that as being a considerable suspect.

 

In regards to the certainty issue, "him" means Verbal in that sentence.  I don't see how you can seemingly be suspecting of Darthe, and yet use Verbal's certainty as a point against VERBAL.

 

I'll also point out how four hours after Darthe began getting votes (Verbal, Leelou, and Barm) you dismissed them as being based on them thinking he's playing bad.  Whether that's "immediately" or not is a debate I don't care to have, but don't pretend you spent an enormous amount of time discussing their thought processes with them.

 

There is no particular order unless my logic suggests there should be. Plus the gap between weak and strong is pretty demonstrable if you look at the post above my list that contains my reasoning for reads.

 

" I don't see how you can seemingly be suspecting of Darthe, and yet use Verbal's certainty as a point against VERBAL."

 

Of course I can, the events are separate. I don't know for certain if Darthe flips town or scum, and same goes for anybody else, so when I make my reads I never account for spew before it happens. There is a lot I don't understand in this world of mafia, but one thing I do know is you never ever assume to know more than you do.

 

 

I'll also point out how four hours after Darthe began getting votes (Verbal, Leelou, and Barm) you dismissed them as being based on them thinking he's playing bad.  Whether that's "immediately" or not is a debate I don't care to have, but don't pretend you spent an enormous amount of time discussing their thought processes with them.

 

I think maybe 5 or 6 posts at most is spent on directly discussing Darthe, maybe?? Anyhow, compared to how long I've talked about other subjects it's certainly inconsequential and I don't understand it's relevance.

 

And... I did immediately brush it off as him playing badly. I am the one who caught him if you'll recall, and suggesting it wasn't an immediate decision, when I +1 his responses is incredibly lol. I don't care if you want to have the discussion or not.

[Sili Quirrels]

And if you honestly don't get it by now, I have verbal at the bottom because his stance feels/felt 'fabricated' to me. It has nothing to do with how darthe flips, except that if darthe flipped scum this kind of bussing is less likely.

[Clovdyx]

It has nothing to do with spew; it has to do with understanding.  YOU seem to have points against Darthe.  It shouldn't seem unreasonable that others do - especially players that have considerable more experience than you (both in general, and with Darthe specifically).  But when you say "they're just voting him because they think he's bad", it pretty much suggests they have no reason to actually suspect him.

[Clovdyx]

I kind of had her as null because of mostly spammy content, but her reads made me feel a little better about her. However, now that I've reread her posts, it seems strange that she'd give reasons and thoughts as to why she was voting Barm, but when Verbal says Barm is null for him LeeLou drops her vote instantly. She then proceeds to put her vote on someone she's barely even mentioned (Darthe) at that point and gives no reasoning as to why. I haven't really seen much from her since.  

Thoughts?

 

I'm not really surprised that Leelou followed Verbal's lead there, even without a whole lot to back it up.  The opposite would be true as well (him following her on something).  That's just kind of their relationship.  Not having the familiarity with them, I think it's good that you picked up on this.

 

As far as the not seeing much since, DM typically is pretty dead on the weekends.  I'm not sure why, but games tend to drop off significantly on Saturdays and Sundays.  

[Sili Quirrels]

It has nothing to do with spew; it has to do with understanding.  YOU seem to have points against Darthe.  It shouldn't seem unreasonable that others do - especially players that have considerable more experience than you (both in general, and with Darthe specifically).  But when you say "they're just voting him because they think he's bad", it pretty much suggests they have no reason to actually suspect him.

 

What I brought up against darthe was different than what others wer saying. And yes, maybe their meta on darthe/their understanding of his character is better than mine. Perhaps his bad play means something. That's certainly possible.

[Darthe]

 

He HAD admitted to skimming, and I don't see an argument for the whole Nyn/Lily vote thing being "pro-town".  I probably wouldn't have used the word "weasel", but I got the impression he was trying to talk his way out of accusations, rather than actually refuting them.  

 

What would I talk my way out of?  Or refute for that matter?  I deliberately elected to post things that made me look worse and, as an obvious consequence of that, have garnered some flak.  Nobody has been wrong about voting me or calling me out for that.  The potentially +ev option here is that people try to tack on or fabricate additional reasons to paint me in a negative light and the disparity between what I obviously did and what they are stretching for highlights their attitudes.  Additionally if we happen to catch mafia pushing me strongly it'll help clear me and whoever catches them.

 

The only real argument is if it was intentional or not (verb got townie points for saying not and sticking to that) and that's going to be a matter of meta/belief.

 

Also, you are making good arguments against Sili.  A clever mafian might take my side early on if they believed (as he does) that I was faking or if they just wanted town cred for being right.  I don't think he has managed to present himself as well as he perhaps wanted to and little contradictions like the one pointed out in 662 make him a moderate candidate for today's lynch imo.  

 

Certainly better than Lily.

[Darthe]

 

It has nothing to do with spew; it has to do with understanding.  YOU seem to have points against Darthe.  It shouldn't seem unreasonable that others do - especially players that have considerable more experience than you (both in general, and with Darthe specifically).  But when you say "they're just voting him because they think he's bad", it pretty much suggests they have no reason to actually suspect him.

 

What I brought up against darthe was different than what others wer saying. And yes, maybe their meta on darthe/their understanding of his character is better than mine. Perhaps his bad play means something. That's certainly possible.

 

There was a time when you didn't defend me like this.

[Clovdyx]

And if you honestly don't get it by now, I have verbal at the bottom because his stance feels/felt 'fabricated' to me. It has nothing to do with how darthe flips, except that if darthe flipped scum this kind of bussing is less likely.

 

If that's the entirety of your argument against Verbal, obviously I can't refute it.  I don't agree with you though.  It felt pretty genuine to me - I didn't think he had to reach or misrep what was going on, and nothing tonal jumped out to me.

[Darthe]

Verb is more tricksy than Gollum was to Frodo but that will resolve itself in time (or we will lose spectacularly)

[Sili Quirrels]

 

And if you honestly don't get it by now, I have verbal at the bottom because his stance feels/felt 'fabricated' to me. It has nothing to do with how darthe flips, except that if darthe flipped scum this kind of bussing is less likely.

 

If that's the entirety of your argument against Verbal, obviously I can't refute it.  I don't agree with you though.  It felt pretty genuine to me - I didn't think he had to reach or misrep what was going on, and nothing tonal jumped out to me.

 

Others have said the same, and I'm cognizant my head can put together pieces wrong, skewing the read away from what's right. While my gut tells me verbal is scum, maybe his is just a result of my inner-drive to tunnel that I must suppress.

 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with spew; it has to do with understanding.  YOU seem to have points against Darthe.  It shouldn't seem unreasonable that others do - especially players that have considerable more experience than you (both in general, and with Darthe specifically).  But when you say "they're just voting him because they think he's bad", it pretty much suggests they have no reason to actually suspect him.

 

What I brought up against darthe was different than what others wer saying. And yes, maybe their meta on darthe/their understanding of his character is better than mine. Perhaps his bad play means something. That's certainly possible.

 

There was a time when you didn't defend me like this.

 

???