[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

Yates · January 9, 2015

Alright. Got my internet back. I don't even know what some of you are talking about in these quote walls so bear with me as I comb through...

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

It makes me happy when my villagers are town telling.

Yates · January 9, 2015

You claim she's a scum lean but you treat her as Town. Do you not recall this discussion?
You didn't, as far as I can tell, imply anything like that.

Not to make this into too big of a deal but, what?? You claim you called BFG a scum suspect. I acknowledge that. I read it. It's pretty clear. Then you go on to respond to BFG throughout all of Page 7 in a tone that suggests [to me] you already know she's Town. [Granted; tone reading is a skill I'm trying to hone.] So when you claim I never "commented" on the fact that you called BFG a scum read, you are missing the fact that it is implied that I'm commenting on it when I ask BFG what she thinks about you treating her like you know she's Town. This question only really makes sense if I already know that you called her scummy and thus your tone made the question pertinent given your stated read. Follow?

You eschew,

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

Yeah. Pretty much. I actually kind of wait for ANYONE to Town tell to a degree I recognize so I can focus my scum hunting elsewhere. I kind of pride myself on not Town tunneling and think I've done a pretty decent job of late. That's how I accomplish that feat. But what's the point of this statement [accusation?]?

From your quoted excerpts, coded blue. I had bfg as scum by poe. It was not a strong stance and I was looking for reasons to change my mind. I imply this by the quote you left out and my inclusion of clov as a scum lean.

What did I leave out? It's possible I misunderstood something or wasn't following your train of thought...

You promised you would go into detail how I treat Bfg as town. The most I think you can say is we cooperate to meet an ends, and that's pretty much all I got from reading thrice. You'll have to help me.

Best laid plans of mice and men. I'm just going to call it "tone" rather then spend the 1000 words it would take to explain why that appears to be the case.

The point is linking players to me is a good part of your content, and so I ask, how is insinuating scum partners without case building early day 1 without a single flip conducive to hunting scum?

I was being cheeky with you and Cass. Really, I was trying to coax a reaction out of you two, as you already suspected. Cass fell for it and I think her reaction was on point. So she got the first Equestria Town Carrot. Your response is automagically void because you knew what I was doing and admitted to it.

Your tone with BFG, given your stated opinion of her alignment, struck me ass odd and is a completely separate event. It's just coincidence, really, that it happened to be you. Again. Or, maybe it's not coincidence so much as simple math.

It's pure tinfoil right?

See? You did it again. Now you are treating ME like you know I'm Town. It can't be "tinfoil" unless you know I'm Town.

Like, say I flip Scum, what are you going to do - lynch bfg because we worked together for a page? From a villager's point of view (e.g. mine) it seems frivolous and maybe destructive depending on the roster's gullibility, because I could very well be in anti-spew and as a matter of fact, scum treating a player like town usually means that player is town.

Like jmm has been doing for me.

And you say I've been doing for bfg.

I agree with the bold. If you were to flip scum, I would think that would clear me, BFG, and Cass [to a lesser degree]. At least it would weigh favorably in my evaluation of BFG and Cass's alignments.

Yates · January 9, 2015

Red: harder than me?

For me? Yes. It took me two or three games to really figure you out. Then you rolled scum and undid some of my Sili Town tells.

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

Whistles to self.

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

There are holes and redirections and misrepresentations but i really like the tone.

Will go in to more detail later

Yates · January 9, 2015

I don't really get this impression at all from their interactions. There is something that stood out to me, but I'm hoping you can give an example or explain what you mean before I show it.

As I told Sili, it's mostly tone. Let me see if I can pull up a quote or two that really emphasizes what I mean...

Okay, here's I think the exchange that felt too familiar to me:

Lol, misunderstood what you said, I agree with the general meta on Thane. I disagree with 'the wolf' though, it reads as a continuation of 'teh mafia' started by Tress and thus a deliberate use of words and not an unconscious use.

ah i see. i'm still leaning town on him but i'm a little more scared now. i'll be watching him carefully.

Sure. MAYBE Sili is just "working together," as he says. But something about that doesn't feel natural if Sili is assuming BFG is scum.

But the other thing that bothers me is the same thing I just busted Sili for:

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

Here, BFG is assuming Sili is Town. That's why I said earlier that it felt like at least one of them knew the other's alignment. And it's not like BFG really went after Sili. That whole page reads like a limp distancing argument. And that's in my minus column for BFG. This isn't really something I was prepared to talk about but it seems as though the cat's out of the bag so let's make it public and discuss...

Yates · January 9, 2015

LOL - So yeah. Pretty much this, Clov...

yes

Yates said that how you approached BFG's questions made him reach his conclusion. I don't have any real issue with how you handled her (though your explanation of changing jmm from town to mafia because you were preoccupied at first is pretty lolzy). What caught my eye is how she began questioning you.

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

On the surface, that doesn't really seem like a significant strike - there's nothing wrong with getting somebody's stances in the thread. But how would you normally say that?

"Who are you most suspicious of?"

"Who do you thin is the best lynch?"

"Who is your top scum candidate?"

So forth and so on.

Tinfoil has a certain connotation to it - it implies a townie starting to doubt either their own read or a clearing. The mafia don't "tinfoil" - they already know what alignment each player is, so they can't become paranoid about it. By asking who you're likely to tinfoil on, it suggests you ARE town and could end up mislynching, rather than her being unsure of you're alignment.

There's no way for me to prove this but I hadn't read this reply prior to my response above. :tongue:

Yates · January 9, 2015

The problem I have is that if you're reading Sili strongly enough to use that as a basis for linking mafia suspects (even if you later move on) why aren't you voting? This lack of conviction from you is very disconcerting :/

As I sort of explained to Sili, I'm really just using relationships to inform my tone reads. I'm not even sure I've called Sili scum outside of my reaction fish.

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

Ill try to consider objectively whether i was pocketed

Yates · January 9, 2015

Is there a reason you left out my question? It's hardly random?

It was unrelated to our discussion?

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

Yates who do u have down as scum? Ill know if ur lying probably.

Yates · January 9, 2015

Yates who do u have down as scum? Ill know if ur lying probably.

By POE all of the scum are in you, Tress, BFG, and Thane.

Cass is Town 100% of the time, here. I don't recall seeing Clov scum but this is a pretty solid Clov Town approach to the game. Thane hasn't contributed enough and Tress has a medical excuse to not be contributing. Lack of content players are hard to judge. I'd feel good lynching in that pool and investigating there as well.

BFG · January 9, 2015

I'm out for dinner now. Back in a couple of hours, probably.

How did you feel about Jmm's response to your tunneling question?
Placeholder

That makes it sound more interesting than it really is, sorry.

Start of last game he was cocky and sort of confrontational 'good luck trying to read me', 'usually mislynched as town' to paraphrase. This game he isn't. It's a massive change in attitude. One obvious explanation is that he was playing scummy to avoid the Night Kill since he didn't need to worry about being lynched in the previous game, but he says that isn't the case. I can think of a couple more reasons for that to be the case, one of which is that he isn't town this game and some others, but i'd prefer an explanation from him instead of me guessing.

To put it in context... Someone in the previous game (I think Yates) compared him to Arsis, if this was Arsis this game I'd be pushing for his lynch based on tome with a 95% confidence in being right, based on tone. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a tone reader, but since Darthe's mason game I've correctly guessed his alignment within a few of his posts every game of his I've read or played (admittedly that's only a few total) based on tone for want of a better explanation.

In this case it's harder to say - I wasn't in the game with himand I read people differently when reading along compared to interacting with them, which is why I wanted peoples opinions who had played with him. I also don't have a mafia game of his to compare it to, and just the one town game when he had an interesting role to play. Nobody else has mentioned or seems to consider it, so I dunno.

BFG · January 9, 2015

LOL - So yeah. Pretty much this, Clov...

yes

Yates said that how you approached BFG's questions made him reach his conclusion. I don't have any real issue with how you handled her (though your explanation of changing jmm from town to mafia because you were preoccupied at first is pretty lolzy). What caught my eye is how she began questioning you.

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

On the surface, that doesn't really seem like a significant strike - there's nothing wrong with getting somebody's stances in the thread. But how would you normally say that?

"Who are you most suspicious of?"

"Who do you thin is the best lynch?"

"Who is your top scum candidate?"

So forth and so on.

Tinfoil has a certain connotation to it - it implies a townie starting to doubt either their own read or a clearing. The mafia don't "tinfoil" - they already know what alignment each player is, so they can't become paranoid about it. By asking who you're likely to tinfoil on, it suggests you ARE town and could end up mislynching, rather than her being unsure of you're alignment.

There's no way for me to prove this but I hadn't read this reply prior to my response above.

Anything else I need to clear up or are you happy with my response to Clov?

BFG · January 9, 2015

Yates who do u have down as scum? Ill know if ur lying probably.
By POE all of the scum are in you, Tress, BFG, and Thane.

Cass is Town 100% of the time, here. I don't recall seeing Clov scum but this is a pretty solid Clov Town approach to the game. Thane hasn't contributed enough and Tress has a medical excuse to not be contributing. Lack of content players are hard to judge. I'd feel good lynching in that pool and investigating there as well.

Interesting that another player seems to have forgotten about Jmm :/

jmm · January 9, 2015

Initial (obviously weak) leans:

BFG: Town

Sili: Town

Thane: ?Town

Clov: ?Town

Tress: ?Mafia

Yates: ?Mafia

Cass: Mafia

Again, before you freak out, these are very initial, based largely on feel and some are likely to change.

My feelings on disclaimers aside...

Can you talk on the Cass read? I'm taking the question marks on several of us to mean they're more iffy/in between, which suggests that Cass is a more confident read. I think she's showing the most effort at really trying to understand where people are coming from and make sense of things. That's incredibly hard to fake IMO.

What's off to you?

Cass is putting in a bunch of work, which is a good thing.

My beef is that she came out really excited and happy, which feels like a coverup for a scum draw. There were also a few early mentions of her being town.

None! I'm still (somewhat nervously) awaiting my first rand as scum... For now I'm honestly still quite happy to just keep being Town and keep learning/figuring out how to solve the puzzles!!

TBH though Sili, I find this question slightly odd coming from you, considering that you've played both of the two only 'extended' games I've been in and I mentioned this in the sign up thread when Tina asked if I'd played before. You should already know that I've only been Town...

Even though you say you've got me as Town, my gut's wondering if you're trying to set me up as scum... Yes, it's early and I may already have a habit of always reading you as scum, but still...

I like my gut *g*

You wilfing against me again?

@ Clov - Just that it was odd that he would 'call' me Town 'like everyone else' but do it in a way that casts doubt/insinuates that I might be different from the others he listed...

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

I feel like it was a search for something similar to push against me in this game: 'I have her as Town, BUT she could be pulling the wool over your eyes/could be Scum now because even though she's fairly new, she's had experience being Scum before...'

Since I know I'm Town again (and probably also because I'm once bitten, twice shy) it pings/makes me wary.

Does that make any sense? (I'm typing this on phone whilst trying not to ignore the toddler - let me know if doesn't)

Also, you read the last game, right? Do you think something different??

@ Sili - Do you have links to a recent Town game at all?

Going out to lunch/running errands now, back tonight when the kid's in bed - GL!

It could also be I've never played with her before and she's also super bubbly, but it feels off right now.

jmm · January 9, 2015

dang I tried to copy paste some quotes and failed epically.

Yates · January 9, 2015

Anything else I need to clear up or are you happy with my response to Clov?

Further evidence that I read in sequence... :wink:

BFG · January 9, 2015

But I agree about Clov and Cass :)

BFG · January 9, 2015

Ninjaed a lot, above was a follow on to Yates reads

Anything else I need to clear up or are you happy with my response to Clov?
Further evidence that I read in sequence...

Lol

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

...

i think jmm hasn't read the thread.

Yates · January 9, 2015

Interesting that another player seems to have forgotten about Jmm :/

Dang it!

It could also be I've never played with her before and she's also super bubbly, but it feels off right now.

Yeah. Look at her in her other game. Same person. This is the same problem I had with Hally early on. Bubbly people make me nervous.

What makes me and Clov scum?

BFG · January 9, 2015

Is there a reason you left out my question? It's hardly random?
It was unrelated to our discussion?

Last page I declared bfg a scum lean in one of my opening posts and he never comments on it.
I actually did - indirectly. You claim she's a scum lean but you treat her as Town. Do you not recall this discussion?

For example; reconcile this series of posts for me:

<<<unspoilered>>>

BFG enters the game with a reads summary:

So I'll start with the easy stuff, Cass's paranoia seems newish town to me.

Clov's early involvement in the game is also townish from him, although it's been a while since I've seen him as mafia.

Presumably to BFG:

Good start. I concur.

Randomly:

Scum: Bfg, jmm, clov

Is there a reason you left out my question? It's hardly random?

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

I think jmm, bfg, or clov.

I could seperate my reads into -

Town: Cass, Yates, Tress, Thane

Scum: Bfg, jmm, clov

Yates is kind of town-telling, noticing the things he does, but it's premature. I'm scared of Thane, and I'll kick myself if I'm wrong.

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

You say that Sili randomly calls Jmm, Clov and myself mafia (which is a change in his reads from calling us town) but he does it in response to me asking who out of his 6 town reads he's most likely to change his opinion on. So the post isn't random (although rereading the sequence I wonder if I misunderstood what you meant by random :rolleyes:

Sili Quirrels · January 9, 2015

Yates who do u have down as scum? Ill know if ur lying probably.
By POE all of the scum are in you, Tress, BFG, and Thane.Cass is Town 100% of the time, here. I don't recall seeing Clov scum but this is a pretty solid Clov Town approach to the game. Thane hasn't contributed enough and Tress has a medical excuse to not be contributing. Lack of content players are hard to judge. I'd feel good lynching in that pool and investigating there as well.

Uh, bfg, thane, and I are putting out a lot of content. i would be lying if i said i haven't considered a bfg and thane team, but i wouldn't case them for their wim either.

Tress also has good content, or more than jmm anyway, so... not sure where you're going with this.

[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

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