[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[csarmi]

Dice is somewhat off... but usually he pings me all over the place on D1 if he is mafia. What did he do D1?

[Thane Vakarian]

the way i feel for the moment, i'd probably go for Rags>Cass>Tress>Dice

[hazelkrs1]

I think Dice has elevated his scum game recently. Plus if he IS SK, it wouldn't be as hard to not look as scummy

[csarmi]

let's kill Thane

[Thane Vakarian]

yeah, let's do that

[csarmi]

I don't think Dice would get at me of he were not town. Same with Tress.

 

We're clearest of the clear.

[Thane Vakarian]

on second thought... csarmi, you had your chance and promised to do so D1. You didn't... so too late

 

and now, for something serious: 

 

Unvote

 

Vote:##Cass

 

I just can't shake her gameplay EOD for D2... it's bugging me lots. She seemed very protective of Kivam and unwilling to lynch him. 

[Cass]

@ Thane,

 

I knew that one was coming *g*

 

Dude - I made the deciding vote. If I was wolf, why the hell would I have done that, if Kiv was on 'my' team I don't think that'd be a player I'd be throwing away? And, I was actually really proud of that decision. Even though I sweated about it right up until I hit the spoiler button at the end of night, in case I had been wrong.

 

My hesitation was real. I was leaning towards voting Kiv anyway, I say that in several posts before EoD, if you've looked? But I was scared of being wrong. It may be hard to imagine since you weren't there, but look at the timing of those posts. I was getting hammered by Wom and that made me extremely nervous. I asked him why he put forward Kiv 'cos I was looking to justify my vote against a big player before I took that step again (voted DPR on D1, remember, and not even Des followed cos he was too 'big'). Wom wasn't answering my questions, he was making flurries in the thread, rushing me to a decision. The speed that that was happening at, against a new player, felt very wolfy. I wanted to make my own decision, and I wanted some sort of confirmation that it was 'right'. You can see the thought progression I took to get there, too, I think, if you look at everything I wrote.

[Cass]

^ Especially if it meant that I would be the one remaining wolf... just sayin'.

[Thane Vakarian]

ah Cass, you have an excellent mentor and could well survive a long time as lone wolf. Plus, the fact that you're a brandnew player means that most players (me included) would be willing to cut you some slack. Hypothetically, if everybody in QT would have agreed on sacrificing a wolf to let another continue without problems, it would be done. 

[Thane Vakarian]

and, not to forget, you wouldn't have been the only wolf if Krak wouldn't have been killed N2... 

[Cass]

The point is - no wolf would have had to be sacrificed if I hadn't voted Kiv. Voting for the hell of it would make no sense. Also, you'd think, if I was being led by a pack of wolves that were planning that, they would've known you'd see my hesitation as scummy?

 

I honestly hesitated, and didn't think anything of it after I'd decided that to hell with Wom and his flurries, I was gonna vote Kiv because Kiv had been on my radar all game.

 

As mentioned previously, my actual mentor has barely spoken to me all game. In the last three days he has said less than 11 words to me in our QT: My name, 'Nice lynch!!!!!' and 'the best way to learn is to play.' None of these were whilst I was online, and I have had no direct advice or explanations other than random expressions and abbreviations. 

 

I don't know what sort of mentoring everybody thinks I'm getting, but I explained what the setup was at the beginning and I seriously doubt monstr would've let me walk into a couple of the holes I have if I'd told him what I was doing (The claiming VT and hesitating on my vote against Kiv after all the 'evidence' I'd been working on for two. And I'm sure he would have redirected me to not abandon the conversation with Yates, as well).

[Thane Vakarian]

it could well be that you're playing a very good first game ever, and i would hate for you to be a wolf (for real). But, i do hope that you understand why i find your actions EOD D2 odd.

[Thane Vakarian]

if you'd have randed SK for your first game, looking at your current gameplay, you're doing a good job too (from an outsider point of view). Me, not so thrilled, because you'd still be anti-town

[Pralaya]

I don't think Dice is mafia. I think Yates was trying to picket him.

 

I DO think he might be SK. The way he initially tried to act like Yates "cleared" him, and his posts today generally kind of stink.

 

If given preference over lynch order today tho, mine would prob look like Tress>Dice>Rags>Cass

If Dice is SK, do you think he shot Yates D1? Especially, if he was SK, he would be sure that Yates is lying. But, wouldn't know whether scum or seer covering.

[Cass]

Did some hunting. These aren't all of the posts I did relating to thinking Kiv was sus, but there's enough of them that I hope you'll get my point. Surely you can see my brain working away here, piecing it all together? Do you really think I would have laid all of this out as Wolf? This is totally Town me trying to piece together a cohesive argument/case against someone I've been told (by Dice) is one of the best DM's ever had...

 

Will bold and explain the parts I think may help. Please don't skim, even if it's big. Read this, using the mindset that I'm writing my own stuff, keeping in mind that Kiv would still be here and we'd be facing two wolves if I hadn't had the guts to stick to my gut, then see if your vote still makes sense, k?

 

 

Should have also added - during the re-read I'm doing, I'm noticing Kiv (like DPR and a couple of others), often doesn't answer all the questions directed his way. Kiv answers some of them - so well that you can't help but consider they might be true - and then skillfully leads the discussion around or away from other things, in ways that make them seem as if they didn't even matter to the case/game at hand. I'm pretty sure that would be deliberate, the thing I can't decide is whether he does exactly that in every game no matter what he rands, or if it's significant in this game.

 

 

Since we're talking about Kiv and I promised earlier I had thoughts brewing on Kiv and DPR, here they are. (Nyn  - the verbarm thing is coming, changed note-taking systems (heh) just have to tidy it up a bit).

 

Darthe is right (thanks for that addition) - nobody else really got in on the debate after DPR suggested I was being coached/over-mentored/pupeteered/used. All that really happened was DPR suggested I was working as if I wasn't on my own, Kivam rationalised the argument, hints that him and DPR are Town, then ends it with a warning to everyone that I could/would kick your ass, Des got 'offended' and Yates and Nyn added 'non-committal' affirmations to the arguments of Kiv and DPR (which, in effect only served to heighten the suspicion and the 'she might be wolfy' vibe). 

 

This post was initially going to be raising concerns about the link/interaction specifically between DPR and Kiv on the matter, but now I found the quote and it includes both Yates and Nyn?

 

I find it really strange that the only people running with that are the people I have high up on my list o' sus. And Des, as I've already mentioned, since my re-read is getting right on up there too.

 

A collective effort at "Flatter the newbie, Freak out the Town?" Is that what was going on here? (And yes  , I may have been slightly more blind to that til my review).  

 

 

 

Yes, there's a lot of italics, bold and underlining (and if they work, colours red and green). I'm substituting formatting for words :P. Bold red underline = Town-scaring, Bold and green = Buddying up the noob. 

 

 

 

 

I really don't see what's the big deal about DPR proposing the option that a newbie might be being coached. It's a valid possibility. And it's not an insult at all. It's a viable strategy.

I would agree with you if he was accusing her of being coached. He didn't accuse her of simply being coached. He said her scum team was writing her posts for her. He literally called her a "puppet" at one point. I'm keenly aware of this because he accused ME of authoring her posts.

 

 

Same diff. Again, Dawn got accused of the same when she was on my scum team. They said she didn't sound like herself. Using big words and such. And some were wondering if someone was feeding her posts. It's not a slight, imo. It's thinking outside the box. I could see how it would annoy her, if it weren't true. But beyond that *Shrugs*

 

I'm not saying I agree with DPR. While I AM getting a more experienced feel from her posts, it's possible she just has a very good mentor. 

 

I don't know, this just seems like an overreaction to me.

 

 

Or she's just very, very good.  I was writing posts like that in my first game, too, no mentor, no scum team (was town, popped Sirayn and a teammate D1, was very very proud   ), just a natural facility for logic, argument, and writing. In fact, I'm willing to bet Cass has all of that in spades; if not, then unless both Dice and Yates are scum on a team with Cass, I would assume that at least one of the two of them would be wondering very vocally where she suddenly developed these new-found abilities.

 

I have no idea whether her content is accurate - I know it's not on me, and Wes is not playing at all out of character for him as either scum or town, so while he could be scum, I have literally no reason to think so at the moment.  But the idea that there's no way a new player could get to Cass' results on her own ... it just isn't true, as I know from experience.  It isn't common, but it happens. 

 

So ... she could be scum getting fed content from teammates, could be scum getting this content on her own, could be town getting fed content from a mentor or could be town getting this content on her own.  Since it's a null tell either way (coached/uncoached and puppeted/unpuppeted fit equally well as scum or town), I'm going to do her the honor of assuming that, town or scum, she's playing on talent, not puppetry or coaching. 

 

Suggest you all do the same, if only to save the egg on your faces when - if she's as good as I think she is, and can be - she's routinely kicking all of your asses in future games.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually have to agree that at this point I probably have stronger scum reads on Kiv and Thane than DPR and Wom.

Trying to break some notes down, will see where this goes.

(lol - this. Are you omgus'ing me, law-breaker? If it helps, I really have no idea where you lie right now)

 

Wom, why you voting AJ again? Do you have Kiv as scum?

- Me, concerned that someone I had just been thinking of as an ally in voting down Kiv was suddenly voting for AJ - someone I knew little about (this is pre-flurry and my omgusing Wom)

 

 

Wom, why you voting AJ again? Do you have Kiv as scum?

 

I'm voting AJ because I feel like it.  I have Kivam as a scum lean.

 

Wom, not answering my question/reassuring the self-conscious noob.

 

 

I have Kiv higher on my scum read than AJ, and about the same as VerBarm. What does the competing train suggest to you?

 

By this logic, shouldn't you be voting VerBarm?

 

 

@Wom - I should, unless people are going to shift to Kiv - which is why I asked you why you're voting AJ, since I thought you were reading Kiv as scum.

Hint-hint - Because if people will support a lynch against Kiv I'd prefer that over VerBarm.

 

I want my decision backed up by other players - not rushed by them. I have a bad habit of reading things the way I want to when I think someone is scum - and if your arguments against Kiv don't make sense to me, it might make me see a hole in my own 'reasoning'. My concern is what if I am wrong?

 

Darthe's take on it the EoD thing and me potentially being Wolf.

 

 

 

This not providing reasons thing is making me even more paranoid! lol

 

 

Sounds like you don't want to vote Kivam.

 

 

Cass/Kivam has w/w equity now imo.

 

 

[v]##Cass[/v]

 

Take a stance.

 

 

 

Actually I have more to say on that.  For cass to be scum according to Womby logic it's associative depending on Kivam scum so if he wants to catch Cass he has to lynch Kiv first.

 

Based on this I'm willing to CFD Wombat.

 

Kivam's alignment is irrelevant to my Cass pressure.  Cass nudging Kivam but being unwilling to vote him is scummy regardless of Kiv's alignment.

 

 

I didn't care for Kivam's AJ push or much get the basis of it... But AJ is high on my susp list. What makes you think he is town Des?
Also Wombat flipping scum is pretty unlikely due to him being Stelio's peak. He can flip SK. Maybe. _______%_____??? Stelio was lying. As the jk, he had no peek

 

Do we really need to explain seer cover again?

 

 

If you said it was a policy lynch I'd buy that.

 

If you sad it was that you thought they were teammates and you don't care about the order I'd buy that.

 

Saying that they're independently scummy when you're voting based on this in thread progression is bullshanks.

 

[unvote][v]##Wombat[/v]

 

 

 

 

@ Kiv - You twist stuff to potential wolf advantage. DPR does the same.

 

The main way you guys are both doing this is by coming up with ways to 'scare' the Town about threats which are entirely possible but not necessarily true.

('Cass is gonna kick your ass' 'Sili/Wombat is SK' (You), 'Cass is working with the Scum' (DPR)). It's the direct association with a particular threat that does the trick. Yet neither of you are willing to say anything direct about the potential risk posed by the other player. It's all 'DPR has his general reasons, yep he is a risk, we all are (downplay)', and the same from him on you. You're talking up all the risks with direct hypotheses - except about each other. And I find that strange. Cohesive almost. Because, what it manages to do in practice is get the Town to be 'legitimately' scared of everyone but the two of you.

Why would Kiv let me point this out, if we were working on the same team? (I was super proud about this logic, too, btw).

 

(and from what I've heard, you two are the most experienced threats around). 

 

My problem is, I am reading your actions, interactions and consequent Town reactions as something it makes sense that Scum would do. I don't, however, know the intricacies of the game enough to understand the possible pros and cons of what your actions and interrelations  mean.

 

 

 

This makes no sense. Play this out in your head.  Assume I'm town, and haven't seen anything specific from Wes to make me suspect him of being scum beyond general wariness, but have seen specific things from others that do.  How would I present my arguments?

 

In my mind?

 

In the context of the others? The same way that you have.

 

 

 

In the context of Wes?

 

Like this: "I always suspect him of being scum, beyond a general wariness, but I have not seen specific things this game which point to scum."

 

Not (ever) like this:

 

Re Wes - I answered you on this earlier.  The plays you're reading as scummy are typical of him as town.  Can't explain why without destroying whatever effectiveness they might otherwise have, 

 

 

Especially not when he had effectively done something much the same:

 

 

c) @DPR - What's your read on Kiv? When you suggested a Scum team that didn't include you or Kiv - why did you suggest Kiv should be out too? I can think of a 'plausible' reason for you, now. But not quite one for Kiv....?

 

 

So, for various reasons, I'm not going to go into detail on all of the possibilities regarding Kiv. 

 

 

 

^ My closing argument, and the one Kiv had nothing to reply with. That's when I was most certain about my decision - when he had no other way to twist my words (lawyered a lawyer! heh!)

[Cass]

Do you really think:

 

i) I couldn't do that on my own;

ii) Wolves would bother

 

?

[Cass]

If it was just to get Kiv lynched?

[Thane Vakarian]

you would be able to do that on your own, but wolves always bother with what goes on in the thread because they like to win as much as town does.

[csarmi]

Why were you so reluctant to place a vote on Kivam? Am i remembering that wrong? And also that you had Kiv/DPR but preferring DPR lynch?

[Thane Vakarian]

you do reply well.... 

 

unvote

 

if you have me fooled, then shame on me. 

 

vote:##RAGS

[Andrej]

Good morning all.

 

Won't be around for EOD and I won't have a ton of time before I go into work this afternoon but I'll post what I can.

 

Also, for the record, Kivam was still the lead wagon before Hallia or Cass voted him. The wagons were all tied at 3 but he got there first and so was facing the rope. Characterizing votes afterwards as the deciding factor in that situation is patently false.

[Cass]

it could well be that you're playing a very good first game ever, and i would hate for you to be a wolf (for real). But, i do hope that you understand why i find your actions EOD D2 odd.

Thanks   I actually think/know I've dug myself quite a few silly holes (eg the walking away from Yates despite my gut, mid-debate because I got stuck on associating Sili with DPR, the VT thing, the being too nervous about being wrong to make a decision thing, the massive eye-glazing over-explanation posts thing, and yes, the hesitation at the EoD 'cos of Wom thing) but hey, I'm learning and I can only get better right? :) and no, I'm not SK.

 

 

Why were you so reluctant to place a vote on Kivam? Am i remembering that wrong? And also that you had Kiv/DPR but preferring DPR lynch?

 

Csarmi, you actually asked the same thing earlier and I did respond in the madness of EoD (see spoilers) but basically, I was absolutely reluctant, short answer is because I was nervous (the possibility of being wrong and once bitten, twice shy with leading a vote on a big player (DPR) ) and then, compounding that, Wom started acting all Wolfy, rushing me and not answering any questions but pushing me to make the vote - without backing it up with any justifications. On top of already being nervous, I felt like that whole CFD thing was just a wolf strategy to take over and incite a mob mentality to push the vote, and I didn't want to mislynch if that was the case. It was only when I realised I did have a solid argument against Kiv that I put in the vote. And even then I was slightly petrified.

 

The second point is one you've missed/read incorrectly though - I definitely had Kiv as higher than DPR by that point, and for that reason had unvoted him earlier in the day:

 

I actually have to agree that at this point I probably have stronger scum reads on Kiv and Thane than DPR and Wom.

 

Trying to break some notes down, will see where this goes.

 

 

Longer response from EoD highlighted here:

 

 

 

Lol. Yes I'm frozen (at least if that mean's I'm stuck deliberating what to do). I'm getting flustered   . You don't seem interested in my reasons, but you're not giving me yours and if you're voting against me do you really care about catching Kiv? I don't understand what CFD is, and that's not helping the issue either.

 

And I've brought up extensive reasons why I don't like Kiv too - didn't see anyone rushing to vote when I mentioned them. So it's probably natural that I'm nervous now, when you suddenly go 'Vote Kiv!' and then jump all around on me - after I tell you that I think it's a good vote, but that I'd like to know why.

 

I do get a higher feel of scum from Kiv, but one thing that makes me nervous about it is the way my reread highlighted to me that Kiv and DPR might be working together. Neither of them has provided a read on the other, and they've refused to answer anything about each other directly for the entire game - both of them for fear of interrupting 'things at play'. As if they might be in on something together. 

 

Kiv is worse than DPR for this, but the way they set up their 'Cass is scarier than you think she is' posts weirds me out - it's as if they were pushing slightly different points, points which, again, worked incredibly well together to cover all suggestions that I might be Scum. 

 

Clever set up, if you think of it, both of them covering each other and opposite sides of the field for most of the game? Doesn't that feel slightly relevant to you? In that light - if you're really reading Kiv as Scum, what makes you so sure DPR is on the other side?

 

 

 

Why should your read on other players depend so much on me?  Why don't you just vote who you think is scum?

They don't depend on you, they depend on the logic or lack thereof I identify in your reasons for 'having' the same opinion as me. Who knows why? Perhaps because I'm new, potentially once-bitten-twice shy on running off on my own against one of the two 'big' players, because I'm insecure and I hate miscommunication and losing and being wrong? Which is why this whole thing frustrates me because, if you're Town, isn't the idea to work together to catch out the scum? If another player agrees they have the same scum read as you (you and I with Kiv), but voices doubts over potential holes in their reasoning, and confusion over why you could then think DPR is clear Town - wouldn't the best TOWN move be to work through the logic and confirm the votes are sound?

 

 

 

Cass what I don't get... If you think both Kivam and DPR are scum - why do you prefer a DPR lynch?

 

 

I don't. I (currently) prefer Kiv, and DPR is confusing me. That's why I unvoted, early in the day. I voted DPR last round because of his whole involvement in the Yates-Sili-DPR seer cover thing. None of them answered me directly when I pushed that I thought it highlighted the possibility that Yates might be a wolf, fishing for 'other' seers. I don't care what anyone says, one thing that does seem strange to me, in a board where I've been told that seer cover is not common, is someone jumping on a hardclaim seer straight away. DPR was pushing the same opinion as me - that Yates and Sili were acting like scum by repeatedly defending 'seer cover' as a concept, as opposed to hardclaiming seer as a move. I looked at Yates some more. We had a direct discussion about exactly this, and while I did that I looked more at DPR too. I started to think that DPR and Sili may have set things up. And then I (stupidly) abandoned my questioning of Yates because I thought that DPR was scum. I voted Sili because I thought he was in on it too - working with DPR but that noone would support a DPR vote D1 (about that at least, I was right).  Which in the end is probably what Sili meant about tinfoil and why I was 'apologising' to him in one of my posts - I've mentioned all of this before (that apology to Sili was actually meant to be for end-game too, btw, pointing out the lesson I had learned thanks to him about not thinking someone's scum just because they're associating with someone who you think is scum too). Anyway. Over 'night' I looked at DPR and Kiv and the possibilities of what night player roles may have killed Yates and decided to step back. During the day, the more I look at Kiv, the more 'calculations' and 'twistings' I see in his words. He speaks the truth and 'fact' a lot, but the way he colours it seems to have a consistent theme of scare the Town. The fact that I was one of the central players he decided to scare the Town most directly with jumps out at me incredibly. What concerns me is that DPR has done the same, and neither of them have done anything of the  ('direct') sort with the other player. This (without links etc) is not the way I imagined presenting this idea. I don't like telling you ideas without showing you where they came from. Hmmf.

 

 

 

Based on this I'm willing to CFD Wombat.

I'd support this as well

Everyone...  I know I'm probably just incredibly dense here. Whatever. Say I am. It would help if I knew what the objective of this was, besides everyone jumping on someone else because of mob mentality...

 

 

 

[Andrej]

@Salamipot - Get it together. Seeing the disconnect between you two on thread is weird.

 

Also, Csarmi, what makes you think Dice as the SK would shoot Yates N1 if he had 'cleared' him? Even if Yates was the Seer and Dice was the Godfather'd SK then Yates had just done him a huge solid by clearing him early.

[Cass]

AJ I disagree with the vote thing.

 

Hallia and DPR voted Kiv and AJ respectively at exactly the same time: 1149 by AEST , tying them at 4 votes each.

 

 

I don't think AJ is mafia.

 

I'm not the most informed on Kivam, but between the two

 

##Vote: Kivam

 

 

 

Vote Count D2.19:

Kivam (3): AJ [#2373], Deslami [#2623], Darthe [#2728]
Verbarm (3): Nyn [#2192], Saladtosser [#2202], Pral [#2500]
AJ (2): Verbarm [#2562], Kivam [#2785]
Pral (1): Thane [#1931]
Cass (1): Wombat [#2631]
Wombat (1): DPR [#2730]
Darthe (1): Wombat [#2816]

Unvote (1): Cass [#2187]

Not Voting (4): Hallia, Krak, Rags, Tress

At the gallows: Kivam

Reminder: players not voting at EOD will be voting for themselves.

 

##Unvote Wombat

 

##Vote AJ

 

Call for mod specification on votes Deslami (#2623) vs. Saladtosser (#2202) whom I believe to be the same voter.

 

 

 

 

I then voted Kiv at 11:53, which meant Kiv took the lead..

 

Vote Count D2.21:

Kivam (5): AJ [#2373], Deslami [#2623], Darthe [#2728], Hallia [#2835], Cass [#2837]
AJ (4): Verbarm [#2562], Kivam [#2785], Wombat [#2823], DPR [#2836]
Verbarm (3): Nyn [#2192], Dicetosser [#2202], Pral [#2500]
Pral (2): Thane [#1931], Krak [#2826]

Not Voting (2): Rags, Tress

At the gallows: Kivam

Reminder: players not voting at EOD will be voting for themselves.