Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[Nynaeve]

Players have every right to know the level of the game and if there's bastarding involved. But that's all.

[Nynaeve]

Well I wouldnt tell players in the games I mod that info so... tough?

[Nynaeve]

I choose people using their heads instead of spoon feeding them information. We're not talking about big things here. Just small things that should be taken into consideration. Even and especially for a newbie.

 

Playing mafia means not being in control. Trying to force mods into a template takes a big chunk off the game in regards to thought process and theorising. It also robs scum from Wifom opportunities.

[Yates]

You're forgetting that it's the mod that makes the game, not the players. While input is always appreciated, you don't set up a game based on people's whims. Part of it is creating a setup you enjoy too. If anyone would dictate to me how to run my game I'd pretty much hang my DM modding hat and mod games elsewhere.

Or, you could just do non-normal games right? Like I said, as long as people KNOW that your roles aren't the "standard" basic roles as defined in some thread here? Go nuts. I think you can still have your fun making games YOU enjoy building. And I would still absolutely sign up for a Nyn game and have loads of fun. But this way I don't spin my wheels or trick myself into believing something that I should be able to take for granted as being true.

 

What we are talking about here is a very basic FOUNDATION of BASIC roles and definitions specifically designed to remove WIFOM and guessing from the mechanics of the game. That way, the WIFOM and guessing are all aimed at PLAY as opposed to mechanics. And I think that's an important distinction.

 

I think we are talking about slightly different things here, Nyn. The intention isn't to remove mod creativity in ALL games. The intention is to have that creativity focused on putting together a game based on basic mechanics for anything labeled as a basic or normal game. The games you are talking about would absolutely still exist. They would simply exist under a different definition. Does that make sense?

[Nynaeve]

I wouldnt tell people if it's standard or not. I will give them the level of the game and assure them it's not bastarized. That's it.

[Tommyrod]

I say we work on creating the template and let people decide whether its a good enough idea to stand on its own or not.

[Tommyrod]

What we can do is define role PM templates that mods can use and add flavor to but otherwise the ability descriptions are constant so nobody is confused and new mods can pick them up and use them easily.

[Nynaeve]

No it doesnt make sense. I can still run BASIC game but not feel inclined to tell people how every role runs to the letter. It varies between mods and every one does it how it suits them. People are aware of the different options and they are just gonna have to figure things out. As you often do in mafia games :p

[Yates]

I wouldnt tell people if it's standard or not. I will give them the level of the game and assure them it's not bastarized. That's it.

Interesting thought. How do you think this helps the game, in your opinion? Also, how might it HURT the game? This isn't an argument with you, just so you know. Just sort of a thought experiment so I can see where you are coming from.

[Yates]

 

 

No it doesnt make sense. I can still run BASIC game but not feel inclined to tell people how every role runs to the letter. It varies between mods and every one does it how it suits them. People are aware of the different options and they are just gonna have to figure things out. As you often do in mafia games :p

"PAFO" is like a CURSE WORD to me in a BASIC game!  

[Nynaeve]

There are no definites in mafia. I feel totally comfortable with players not having a 100% grasp of the roles even in a basic game. if they did it would be boring. Plus mods have their own style and preferences and I don't like the idea of forcing their hands about little stuff they choose to do as they please. Stuff players don't really need to have mod confirmed. Stuff they can theorise about and reach their own conclusions on. So there's a bit of WIFOM. So what? I consider it to be a good thing. I don't like things to be so cut and dry. it sucks the fun out of it.

[Yates]

Alright. Nyn is officially on the record as hating this idea. Noted.

[Nynaeve]

lol I do support the role lists. ie what roles should be in basic, advanced, standard, bastard.

 

I think those would be helpful.

[Tommyrod]

Yeah I hate PAFO too. I like knowing what I can expect of the mechanics and what the boundaries are.

[Nynaeve]

Mostly cause I think a player has every right to choose the level of game they sign up to.

[Yates]

There are no definites in mafia. I feel totally comfortable with players not having a 100% grasp of the roles even in a basic game. if they did it would be boring.

Wow. Don't you remember Discworld, partner? That was AWESOME. And that wasn't just basic/vanilla - that was vanilla with an OPEN SETUP. That's like, taking this to the EXTREME. And it was still an awesome game. So I *certainly* believe that games defined as Basic with defined roles can ABSOLUTELY be tons of fun. Also, as you may have noticed, it seems to lead to fewer emo outbursts. It could be a coincidence, sure. But I think removing confusion about things like how roles are defined forces people to focus more on play than mechanics and leads to better play overall and fewer of these emo outburts. Just a theory. We'll likely see if this holds true in Tommy's upcoming vanilla game.

[Yates]

lol I do support the role lists. ie what roles should be in basic, advanced, standard, bastard.

 

I think those would be helpful.

Mostly cause I think a player has every right to choose the level of game they sign up to.

Oh you do? Okay! Lol! I was thinking you hated this idea and you were opposed to it because we were suggesting something that would squash your creative voice.

[Nynaeve]

I didnt really enjoy discworld so :p

[Nynaeve]

creativity shouldn't clash with a player being able to get a game in the level they were promised. But that does NOT mean that they should be privy to EVERY detail of the roles. Huge difference.

[Nynaeve]

Emo bursts have to do with emo players. First and foremost. The setup isnt really related imo. Shouldn't be anyhow.

[Nynaeve]

Gonna go exercise now. Laters >.>

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

wow.

 

I pretty much completely agree with Nyn and I'd not have been nearly as gentle in explaining it.

 

so, to sum up, hell has again frozen over and you've got two extremely different people hating this push for the same reasons.

 

there is a moderator for mafia on this board. not just a veteran of the forum but someone whose job it is to do stuff like this if he thinks it needs doing. if there were any systematic changes to be implemented for the mafia board (and that would never be forum wide) the moderators and admins would be the ones to do that.

 

if you seriously wanted any of these changes you'd approach a mod about them and not try to roflstomp The New World Order onto a forum outside of the chain of command.

[WWWwombat]

DM is more used to closed setups and mechanics.  I have no problem with individual mods opening up some of those things, but enforcing strict community definitions is going too far imo.  Personally, when I mod, I inform everyone of the mechanics of their role, and answer reasonable hypothetical questions about other mechanics.  I try to spell out as much as I can in the rules and role PMs.  But if you're basing decisions on mechanical assumptions that you haven't checked with the mod of the game, then you kind of deserve to get burned.  And that goes doubly so for people who lynch based solely on "gaming the mod."

[Nynaeve]

DM is more used to closed setups and mechanics.  I have no problem with individual mods opening up some of those things, but enforcing strict community definitions is going too far imo.  Personally, when I mod, I inform everyone of the mechanics of their role, and answer reasonable hypothetical questions about other mechanics.  I try to spell out as much as I can in the rules and role PMs.  But if you're basing decisions on mechanical assumptions that you haven't checked with the mod of the game, then you kind of deserve to get burned.  And that goes doubly so for people who lynch based solely on "gaming the mod."

 

You know what's sad? That it took me countless posts to basically say this. Then again, I was sleepy and on my cell.... and in a bit of pain.... so we'll let it slide this time around >.>

[Nynaeve]

wow.

 

I pretty much completely agree with Nyn and I'd not have been nearly as gentle in explaining it.

 

so, to sum up, hell has again frozen over and you've got two extremely different people hating this push for the same reasons.

 

I don't think we're that different. We've seen eye to eye in the past *shrugs*