[Advanced] Revenge of the Marlfox

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Honestly, I've been playing for years on various sites and it took a while for me to hit that level(although I have taken small breaks).  If you have already hit that level, you've either been playing too much or things are worse than I thought. 

 

Not a six month hiatus though. A normal sized break that people take all the time, like two weeks or something. I've been playing mafia non-stop for the last half month, and I'm in a state of... the word ennui comes to mind. Besides I have to prepare to gm my own game, and I need to be in tip-top shape for it.

[TheRagnarok]

It's based of what I'd perceive as really pro-town motive when he's posted. He took good positions vs Thane and Sili later on, acted in town's interest with the Thane wagon (despite the flip), and for me personally I don't recall him voting me to blind lynch a slot on day 1 when I was absent.I had him in my maybe lynch pile and that won't change yet, but there are way higher priority targets for me.

 

scumVerb could have caused problems in this game when he's had the opportunity, but hasn't. That's not to say he isn't sticking his next out, but he is doing in such a way that is pro town. Ie not just ruffling feathers for the sake of being a dick. And with Leelou somewhat clearing him, and a lot of town vibes on that slot apparently, that's gotta be taken into consideration also.

 

What don't you like about Verb?

Your first paragraph is what concerns me a bit.  He took good positions on two players for...what reasons? and then didn't vote you even when you were an easy vote.  Could be interpreted as him having TMI and trying to play the 'smart townie' role. 

 

Second paragraph is definitely worth nothing.

 

I play off of feel.  I think that despite who a player is, everyone changes when they are town and scum.  People can claim they don't, but they do.  Even I do because like it or not, some things are universal.  Wolves have to fake their reactions because they know what is going on.  That's key.  I have played with Verb before, but the way he has made posts screams fake to me.  I think that his responses and reactions are scripted. 

[TheRagnarok]

And btw, being as I play off of feel and instinct, if my 'juju' is on, I am awesome.  If it sucks, like the last game on VS after my break, then I'm not.  I can build a case off of logic, posts, and all that fun crap, but it's not my forte. 

 

if it helps, I'm good at poker cause I play people, not cards. 

[Sili Quirrels]

Wifom is for the calculating, but talking is for the intuitives.

 

*nods sagely.

[TheRagnarok]

Wifom is for wolves to screw with your head.  At the end of the day, do you think someone is being fake or not being fake?  That's what I go with.

 

Of course, I'm hammered right now.  Wich means my juju is at peak levels.

[monstrman]

Maybe the wolves just want you to think that the wifom is only used to screw with your head. Bet you didn't plan that one out

[dicetosser1]

Ok, time for a Ragnarant.  Sit down, cause I am quite annoyed.

 

Once again, on my read up I saw another example of this bullshit where people talk about not playing with certain people any more.  That needs to stop now.  It's one thing to be a bit of a douche in the thread or say someone's being a douche in a game if you want to get reads, but this not playing with people crap goes way outside the thread and outside the game.  And honestly, I think that people who do it are just whining for attention.  Because if an adult has a real issue with someone else, they take it somewhere privately and deal with it.  If you all had some serious issues, you would have PMed each other and resolved it in some way.  And if that meant you decided privately to not play together, fine.  But you wouldn't throw these fits in public.  So you are either acting like a child or you are whining for attention. 

 

If you have a legitimate issue with someone, PM them about it.  But leave this "I won't sign up if you have" shit at home.  It serves no purpose and ruins the game for others. 

 

 

Claps and Cheers!!

[TheRagnarok]

Maybe the wolves just want you to think that the wifom is only used to screw with your head. Bet you didn't plan that one out

You underestimate my Mafia abilities on rum.

 

Rags:rum::Superman:sun

 

Yeah.  thought so.

[TheRagnarok]

 

Ok, time for a Ragnarant.  Sit down, cause I am quite annoyed.

 

Once again, on my read up I saw another example of this bullshit where people talk about not playing with certain people any more.  That needs to stop now.  It's one thing to be a bit of a douche in the thread or say someone's being a douche in a game if you want to get reads, but this not playing with people crap goes way outside the thread and outside the game.  And honestly, I think that people who do it are just whining for attention.  Because if an adult has a real issue with someone else, they take it somewhere privately and deal with it.  If you all had some serious issues, you would have PMed each other and resolved it in some way.  And if that meant you decided privately to not play together, fine.  But you wouldn't throw these fits in public.  So you are either acting like a child or you are whining for attention. 

 

If you have a legitimate issue with someone, PM them about it.  But leave this "I won't sign up if you have" shit at home.  It serves no purpose and ruins the game for others. 

 

 

Claps and Cheers!!

 

Seriously people, if you like this post by me, then don't make those posts, and don't respond to them. 

 

It is that simple.  That will truly help a lot of the issues here on DM.  If you have legit issues outside of the game, PM said person directly, and bring in someone you both trust to mediate if necessary.  Hell, I'll do it cause I'm not afraid to tell y'all that you're both being childish. 

[berf]

@Rags - Juju is all well and good, but I like it backed up with evidence of plays or positions which I can test for motivation. But anyway. Verb being able to fake all that I've said is the exact reason I'd still be ok with his lynch, as it stands. In saying that I expect him to become more um... evident in his town play, as the game proceeds, so I'm kinda ignoring the slot for the moment until I can get a firmer idea of alignment. For now I'm happy to assume town for the most part and look elsewhere.

[TheRagnarok]

@Rags - Juju is all well and good, but I like it backed up with evidence of plays or positions which I can test for motivation. But anyway. Verb being able to fake all that I've said is the exact reason I'd still be ok with his lynch, as it stands. In saying that I expect him to become more um... evident in his town play, as the game proceeds, so I'm kinda ignoring the slot for the moment until I can get a firmer idea of alignment. For now I'm happy to assume town for the most part and look elsewhere.

Fair enough and I respect that mindset. 

[Sili Quirrels]

wifom isn't really a thing as long as there is an optimal play that minimizes the chances of something going wrong. still, it can be difficult to think this way when 2 or 3 mistakes in mafia can result in a loss.

[TheRagnarok]

Issue being is that there really is no such thing as optimal play. 

[dicetosser1]

So its 7pm here which means its bedtime as I have my 90km ride tomorrow and will be leaving at 4am. on a longshot i might post tomorrow but most likely it will be monday

[Sili Quirrels]

I think this discussion would usually be reserved for the retrospective thread, but I do have some opinions to dispense.

 

My understanding is the optimal play is to always limit the number of effective counter plays - in the case of mafia, to minimize the chances of someone catching you. Painting yourself into a target by role claiming beloved princess, for instance, is a good example of wifom gone bad. While it is true you may be able to trick people into leaving you alone if you are a wolf, giving them the opportunity in the first place is always ill-advised.

 

To illustrate my argument, 'why wifom when you can just reduce the number of glasses on the table to one'? Typically enabling a wifom moment is actually bad play, and typically when it is employed it has 2/3 chance of backfiring since only the first 3 levels really matter. Anything beyond that is needlessly complicated and frivolous.

[TheRagnarok]

I think this discussion would usually be reserved for the retrospective thread, but I do have some opinions to dispense.

 

My understanding is the optimal play is to always limit the number of effective counter plays - in the case of mafia, to minimize the chances of someone catching you. Painting yourself into a target by role claiming beloved princess, for instance, is a good example of wifom gone bad. While it is true you may be able to trick people into leaving you alone if you are a wolf, giving them the opportunity in the first place is always ill-advised.

 

To illustrate my argument, 'why wifom when you can just reduce the number of glasses on the table to one'? Typically enabling a wifom moment is actually bad play, and typically when it is employed it has 2/3 chance of backfiring since only the first 3 levels really matter. Anything beyond that is needlessly complicated and frivolous.

Honestly, that's a good theory.  But not as good in terms of being practical.

[TheRagnarok]

I've drank a handle of bacardi tonight...so lemme explain tomorrow.  Cause it ain't happenin now.

[Sili Quirrels]

Fair enough. I look forward to it.

[TheRagnarok]

You prolly won't get it.  But that's ok. 

 

I hate notsummer.  Cause then I can't play pirate.  I need warm weather AND rum for pirate fun time.  It's cold here.  Fuuuuuuuuuuu cold weather.

[TheRagnarok]

Long story short, sometimes, putting yourself into a situation where there is only one out can gain you more than putting yourself into a situation with many outs.  If for no other reason than people will assume what you just did.  It's all about playing the people.  Not the game.  So never make assumptions.

[Nynaeve]

Did everyone have a nice Halloween?

[Sili Quirrels]

Assuming a reasonable amount of wim and experience,  the usual wifom is high risk, low reward. At best: low risk, low reward.

 

Only in those special cases like the VS game, does the board become so stacked that wifom is viable. Specifically, the shc.

[Sili Quirrels]

I had a nice Halloween, nyn. The fog was particularly lovely.

[Sili Quirrels]

You prolly won't get it.  But that's ok. 

 

I hate notsummer.  Cause then I can't play pirate.  I need warm weather AND rum for pirate fun time.  It's cold here.  Fuuuuuuuuuuu cold weather.

you are right, i am confused.

[TheRagnarok]

 

You prolly won't get it.  But that's ok. 

 

I hate notsummer.  Cause then I can't play pirate.  I need warm weather AND rum for pirate fun time.  It's cold here.  Fuuuuuuuuuuu cold weather.

you are right, i am confused.

 

I was born and raised in Tennessee.  Not warm weather scares me. 

 

And we can discuss WIFOM later.  You are correct on blatant WIFOM.  But many players are very good are subtle WIFOM.  Not everything is so black and white.  Not trying to come across as condescending, I've just seen a LOT of situations.  Imo, the majority of mafia situations are in that grey area...so you have to discern for yourself.