Random Question....???

[TwoFace1980]

So i just finished MOL re read and i was thinking that If Rand can just think his pipe to be lit, why does he need gold, or a horse?  He can just think himself somewhere or just reach into his pocket pick out gold if he needed it.  Also, what is stopping him from just making himself look like he used to instead of walking around looking like Mordin?  Just a though....

[Orderofolde]

Some interesting contemplations there. It is probably limited by what the pattern is willing to allow. Also gold from thin air might be a stretch as lighting a pipe is only a tiny change to something that already exists. Rand needs a new face for a new start. Plus if any dark friends remain it will help.

 

I just wonder if there will be any memory transfer from Ishy or the original owner.

[TwoFace1980]

I didn't think of the memory transfer.  I like it.  Also, I wonder if his abilities are the same as channeling?  Can he still cause a lightning strike, hurl fireballs?  Or is it just random things like we saw?  

[jack of shadows]

@twoface1980,

rand told alivia to prepare provisions for his escape BEFORE he entered the pit of doom,

bearing in mind that rand most urgent problem post last battle was to get away from shayol

ghul as soon as possible,(and already on horseback),he didn't really dwell on his new found

powers,he just rode away.

give our legendary hero time to experinent and i'm sure he'll learn how to use his new abilities properly.

by the way,the last thing rand needs is to look like he used to,they(rulers aes sedai etc) will never

leave him alone.

[Sabio]

Its also possible he might not of known that he would have any powers, just because he thought of the body swap doesn't mean he knew everything that would happen after it occurred.  Its best to plan for needing gold and a horse etc.  Then to survie the last battle and discover you have no way to support yourself.  There could also be limits to the power, he might not be able to simply think of a bag of gold and have it appear.

[mb]

skimmed through various parts of Memory of Light after I got it.  the last chapters was one of them.

 

the pipe lighting seemed to indicate that he was still taveren; that his taveren-ness lit the pipe.

 

Like other posters speculated, there might be limits.  taveren-ness seems to affect the immediate area of the taveren.

[Orderofolde]

I believe that from Rand's POV he feels that he is no longer Taveren and is not.  His ability to light the pipe came from his spinning the threads of creation/the pattern.  It also might be a precursor to what his kids will experience in Avi's visions of the children no longer needing to enbrace the source to use it.  This of course is a next needed step towards forgetting about the OP.  Next is having it forbidden/witchcraft era.

[Pinzarn]

I doubt it is taveren-ness.  The pattern spins out taverens as they are needed to bring balance to the turning of the Wheel.  To me, there isn't any major balancing needed in the patter/Wheel at this point.

 

As for Rand's "powers", I still think that in the Wheel of Time universe, the Dream World and the real world are more closely linked than anyone realizes.  The lighting of the pipe text just seemed to mirror many of the wardrobe changes and such that people did in Dream World.  They thought about it and it happened.  So yes, I believe that Rand could be hurl fireballs or create gold if he wanted to.  There are other comments about the link between the real world and Dream World like the Aiel talking about dying as "waking from the dream" (or something like that).

 

On the topic of Rand having any of Ishy/Moridin's memories "left over" in the body, I doubt it.  For the other body swaps (the 'nars, Lanfear, etc.) they never referenced any memories from the previous body owner.

[jack of shadows]

@pinzarn,

i agree.being a ta'veren has nothing to do with rand's ability to light his pipe,

in my opinion,post last battle,rand is capable of of manipulating the real world

the same way dreamwalkers or wolfbrothers manipulate tel'aran'rhiod.

[mb]

Aginor to Osangar, Balthamel to Arangar, Lanfear to Cyndane, Ishamael to Moridin, Graendal to Hesalam; those I count as ressurections, not body swaps.  The new bodies I take died before the soul of the respective Forsaken was put in; and it seems doubtful that the respective former souls exist in the former body of the respective Forsaken.  It seems Rand and Moridin were still living while their bodies were being changed.

 

these to me seem to be the most probable cause for the pipe lighting::

- taveren-ness

-real/waking world equivalent of telaranrhiod manipulation

 

by the way, wolfbrother (and wolfsister) I would count as a type of dreamwalker.

 

"no major balancing" could be interpreted as "non-major balancing existing".  pipe lighting could be considered as "non-major".

And some source told that a taveren always gets what the taveren needs; do not remember exact words or where.  From the scene, it seems Rand needed his pipe to be lit.

 

It seems to me the only way for a taveren to become non-taveren is for the current incarnation to die.  Since Rand still had his memories, it seems the current incarnation still lived.

 

to orderofolde; the only character I recall doubting the taveren-ness of anyone was Perrin.

from the scene, it seems that Rand had no thoughts one way or the other on that.

[Orderofolde]

Well I thought that Rand reflected that he could no longer feel his Taveren pull, I'll have to check it out again.  I'm back up to Path of Daggers so far...

[jack of shadows]

@orderofolde,

mb is right,the only character reflecting that he could no longer feel the ta'veren pull

or see the visions in his head is perrin,deducing that they(rand and himself) are no

longer ta'verens,however,i have absolutely no idea whether perrin's thoughts are

accurate,after all,rand(in moridin's body) was barely alive at the time.

[Aviendha al Thor]

I wonder if the fleck of Saa in his eye which looks like a dragons fang has anything to do with it.. I do think Jack of Shadows is right. Maybe Rand is now a part of the pattern without being a Ta'veren but being able to manipulate it in some ways.. I mean there have got to be some perks for fighting Shaitan right? It'd be so cool if there was a sequel. How would they share Rand? And what about the black tower? I want more!

[Pinzarn]

Aginor to Osangar, Balthamel to Arangar, Lanfear to Cyndane, Ishamael to Moridin, Graendal to Hesalam; those I count as ressurections, not body swaps.  The new bodies I take died before the soul of the respective Forsaken was put in; and it seems doubtful that the respective former souls exist in the former body of the respective Forsaken.  It seems Rand and Moridin were still living while their bodies were being changed.

 

 

 

Do we know that the new body died before the Foresaken took it?  Yes, the Foresaken died, but I don't recall hearing that the host body died then the Foresaken's soul was crammed in there.  Perhaps, I missed it.

[mb]

the new bodies dying first; that was speculation.  Though I am not sure if the Dark One could do soul transmigration to a living body.

Not entirely sure, but Shayol Ghul might be the only place where it could be done.  If that is so, it could be difficult to get a living person there.

[jack of shadows]

@aviendha al thor,

aviendha al'thor  has a nice ring to it,

doubly so because out of the emond's field 8 group

rand is the only one who managed to stay single.lol.

[Aviendha al Thor]

@Jack, lol thanks and that's coz they let him think he's single but he really isn't and deep down he knows it!

[TwoFace1980]

@Avi, yes like most men, we don't know we are in a relationship until her toothbrush shows up in our bathroom!  :)

[Sabio]

Rand somehow pushed his soul in Moridin as he pushed Moridin's soul into his dying body.  So that involved 2 living beings but also required them linked with the TP.

The forsaken got new bodies, thus one alive and one person already dead.  So if the person already wasn't dead you would have to  suck the soul out of a living being while placing the new on in.  Not sure but for me I think the other person needs to be dead before the soul of a dead person can inhabit the body. 

The you get slayer which is somehow a blending of souls. 

 

I think what needs to be done depends on the state of you subjects, whether both are alive or dead, one dead one alive etc. 

[Pinzarn]

Rand somehow pushed his soul in Moridin as he pushed Moridin's soul into his dying body.  So that involved 2 living beings but also required them linked with the TP.

The forsaken got new bodies, thus one alive and one person already dead.  So if the person already wasn't dead you would have to  suck the soul out of a living being while placing the new on in.  Not sure but for me I think the other person needs to be dead before the soul of a dead person can inhabit the body. 

The you get slayer which is somehow a blending of souls. 

 

I think what needs to be done depends on the state of you subjects, whether both are alive or dead, one dead one alive etc. 

 

I always pictured the Foresaken's "body swap" situation along the following lines:

 

Foresaken dies.  Dark One has control of their soul.

The new body is still alive as a captive.

Some ritual takes place near SG.

Foresaken's soul is pushed into the new body while the old soul is ripped out.

Dark One now has the old soul to play with.  No one ever cared about the old soul.  Maybe it is in the River of Souls.

 

I was never of the opinion that the new body was ever dead at any point in time.  If the "host" body was dead, then this is the Dark One resurrecting/reanimating the body with a new soul.  Why not just resurrect/reanimate the Foresaken in his/her old body?

 

The Rand/Moridin body swap is along the same lines.  The only difference is that instead of Moridin's soul had a place to go instead of being in the Dark One's control.  This is mainly because the Dark One wasn't the one running the show, but Rand was.

[Sabio]

The DO can't just make a body, if he could put the forsaken back in their original bodies he would need the original bodies.  Not to mention the new body is also seen as part of the punishment.  Lanfear was killed to free her and as punishment., but putting her in new body was also a punishment.  This also gave the DO the advantage of everyone assuming you are dead while the person in their new body can easily go to any place they wish. 

[mb]

also, each Forsaken's former body was likely significantly decomposed by the time their respective resurrection happened.

For sure Aginor & Balthamel; very likely Ishamael; possibly Lanfear; some chance Graendal, depending on cause/means of death.

[Mkelly157]

I think the pipe being lit was a little gift, a remnant of a remnant perhaps. He couldn't go what he'd gone through and not have something to show for it but I suspect it would always be minor

[mb]

"remnant of a remnant" I took to be the Aiel that survived Tarmon Gaidon; not anything else.

 

the pipe lighting could be considered a gift.  Though like I speculated before, it could be a new manifestation of his taveren-ness.

if a gift, I would guess it came from the Pattern/Wheel.

[Mkelly157]

But why just the aiel? Plus ran is part aiel