~Mat n Fain~ ( No spoilers for book 6 onward please)

[Amalasan]

First of all, if you are still reading book 1 of tWoT at the very least, It's probably safe if you do not read on. It is totally unavoidable to spoil plot for this book, based on the point of the conversation. Thanks :) .

 

Here we go folks, listen up. It's difficult to miss the fact that there's debates here there and everywhere on Dragon Mount. So what the hell, here's a debate for you all to scratch the skin off of your your chins for, maybe the first of a few!

 

Padan Fain :twisted:, why him and not Mat Cauthon? Everyone remembers Mordeth right? So what was it that made Mordeth possess Fain in the first place? It can't simply be the taint from the dagger because Mat had it first, Mordeth also came face to face with Mat first. So what did Fain have that Mat didn't?

 

Let's hear all your suspicions and ideas on this topic. Please only include knowledge up to end of book 5. Cheers.

[Silver]

Fain was already warped by the DO

[Amalasan]

True. Doesn't Mordeth have a hatred for the DO :?: You'd think that would repel him rather then suck him in.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Fain was actually possessed by Mordeth. He was the treasure hunter in Shadar Logoth that Mat, Rand and Perrin met him. The did not accompany him outside of the city where his pack animals and so he wasn't able to physically take one of them over. I think the accompanying out of Shadar Logoth was necessary for possession, but just accepting an object directly from him may have been enough. Mat's sickness, while it resulted from the Dagger that Mat took would have been caused by anything that was taken from Shadar Logoth.

 

That Fain sometimes calls himself Mordeth indicates that he also met the same being as Rand, Mat and Perrin. Furthermore, it would indicate that Fain accompanied the man out of Shadar Logoth providing the opportunity for full possession.

[Guest cwestervelt]

True. Doesn't Mordeth have a hatred for the DO :?: You'd think that would repel him rather then suck him in.

 

Mordeth does have a hatred for the DO. However, he is drawn to the Dark One's creatures in the same way that, even though Trollocs and Myrddraal are terrified of Shadar Logoth, they are drawn to the Dagger. Evil recognizes and accepts evil even when it fights that same evil. Fain is no longer a servant of the Dark One. Mordeth has twisted him way past that. It has also given Fain an very interesting control over Shadowspawn that he didn't have before and that we really haven't seen anyone else show.

[Amalasan]

Hmmm. An avid point you have there cwestervelt. But I thought Mordeth was completely trapped in Shadar Logoth, in fact he had actually become Shadar Logoth did he not? Surely he would have had to possess someone in the city if he was trapped so.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Mordeth could leave, but only if someone accompanied him to the edge of the city.

 

Mordeth tries to get Mat, Rand and Perrin to accompany him with the promise of treasure.

 

More than I expected. Much more. More than I can carry away. I never expected to find tree strong, healthy young men. If you will help me move what I can take to where my horses are, you may each have a share of the rest.

 

Then after they escape from him you get Moiraine's statement:

 

Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules... or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again.

[dalic]

Mordeth has become the embodiment of a "new" evil that did not result from DO's influence. Mordeth and the rest of Aridhol attempted to beat evil by fighting fire with fire and so they became evil themselves but a different evil than that of DO.

 

I think when Fain and Mordeth merged a third evil was created that is different from both the Shadow and Shadar Logoth. Some how this combo-evil allows Fain to control Shadowspawn.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Mordeth has become the embodiment of a "new" evil that did not result from DO's influence. Mordeth and the rest of Aridhol attempted to beat evil by fighting fire with fire and so they became evil themselves but a different evil than that of DO.

 

I think when Fain and Mordeth merged a third evil was created that is different from both the Shadow and Shadar Logoth. Some how this combo-evil allows Fain to control Shadowspawn.

 

Don't forget to through Machin Shin into the mix as well.

[Amalasan]

Quite a mixed up fella Fain is really huh?! Yeah I really must go back and read the point in the book where this all kicked off in Shadar Logoth. I've had another thought though. Does everyone remember the mist that was floating around in the city? Rand, Perrin, Mat etc split up in all directions trying to dodge this mist. This mist swallowed up the Trollocs, yeah a lot like the black wind cwestervelt. Fain being with the trollocs, must have been an ideal candidate because of this dark taint already being there, rather than repelled which was a silly thing for me to say admittedly.

 

cwestervelt

 

Mordeth could leave, but only if someone accompanied him to the edge of the city.

 

Mordeth tries to get Mat, Rand and Perrin to accompany him with the promise of treasure.

 

Yeah I definetely remember the promise of treasure, the dagger being with the piles of treasure next to Mordeth. Mordeth's seduction wasn't powerfull enough for Rand and Mat (well maybe Mat gave in a little, taking the Dagger). Surely, it must be that "The Mist" trapped Fain in a corner somewhere where Mordeth could seduce him and therefore also seduceing him into leaving the city Accompanied by Mordeth. :?: :?:

[Guest Egwene]

I think there is a pretty good chance that Fain was as attracted to Mordeth as Mordeth to Fain. They seem to be ideally suited to each other.... Some would say a match made in.... hmmm... I think Heaven may be the wrong word here..

[Dionysus]

I think Fain can control Shadowspawn because they fear him.

 

Which is also why he cant control massive groups.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I suppose fear works, at least as far as the Trollocs go. They obey Myrddraal at least partially out of fear. Fain can nail a Myrddraal to a door while it is still alive so they would definitely fear him. Come to think of it, I can't think of any other Shadowspawn that we have seen him contolling.

[Amalasan]

Yes, a very manipulative creature indead. So I guess this all pretty much answers the question.

 

Mat was just too dam lucky (as usual) to get away from Mordeth with only a few battle scars made by from the dagger. Fain coming haring along shortly behind must have seemed worth waiting for as far as Mordeth was concerned, who was led outside the city to create an evil on an even larger scale to that of Mordeth alone.:evil:

[Garat Jax]

Now I always thought that it came down to the dagger. In that if Mat had kept possession of it and hadn't had the tempory healing from Moiraine and then the full healing at Tar Valon he would have become Mordeth. As for Fain he was always on the loony fringe but it wasn't until he had possesion of the dagger for a long period that he became possessed (and he didn't have the help of the stop gap healing either).

[rd2000]

Fain considered the dagger a part of HIM. When he took it from the WT, he accidentally nicked himself with it, it had no effect on him.

[teehee]

actually it has nothing to do with the dagger. Fain is not possesed either. moraine tells rand at the end of the great hunt that whilst exiting shadar logoth he encountered Mordeth who tryed to possess him but immediately recoiled when he felt the dark one's direct touch on fain's soul making Fain part mordeth, part darkfriend,although he no longer serves the Shadow, and much,much stronger. that is why he sometimes calls himself mordeth and says "he had survived since the trolloc wars...well a part of him had anyway". Him controlling darkfriends and trollocs, the mydraal still opposed him by saying they should head towards the blight with the Horn, may be fear or may be that evil attracts evil stuff. the dagger,and the treasures, was just a way to get Rand,Perrin and Mat,+ some other unwary travellers, to follow him to the edge of Shadar Logoth/Aridhol for possession.

oh, and i think he,Mordeth, was the only one who tryed to fight fire with fire, he was the advisor and he twisted the city and now seeks to twist the world before he goes after the DO.

When fain went into the Pit of Doom and the DO gave him the power to find Rand,Mat and Perrin, it had side effects, he could give fear to halfmen and trollocs and he could give pain to mydraal. the Black Wind,Machin Shin, tryed to consume fain but failed and fain managed to give IT orders on what to do.2 evils tryed to take Fain but couldn't succeed and now fain does not serve any of the three evils, he is evil,a fourth type, itself!