why wasn't lanfear spared?

[Guest Barmacral]

In the last chapter of book 9, Lanfear (Cyndane) comments on this when she encounters Alivia. I'd post the exact quote, but I don't have time right at the moment.

[Hero of Satsuma]

I always thought that it was a punishment administerd by the Dark One (or Shaidar Haran) for Cyndane to be weaker in the power than she was as Lanfear. Didn't she try to kill Rand that day she went through the doorway with Rand? I thought it was made clear to the forsaken that he was not to be killed.

[Guest Barmacral]

Winter's Heart- With the Choedan Kal:

 

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.

[Shadow_Eternal]

another theory we could consider is that the Dark One himself ripped Lanfear's soul out of her body and put it in a new one (with a lower level of power as a punishment for defying him) so that he would have all his forsaken with him...its quite eviedent that none of the forsaken would have rescued Lanfear from her captivity (because they probably would have suffered the same fate, and they were utterly selfish and would be secretly happy that she was'nt around anymore:p)

 

To save time (since Tarmon Gaidon was approaching) he could have just decided to be quick about things and take her soul....which could mean..that Lanfear's real body is still stuck in Aelfinn/Eelfinn land.....wouldn't it be interesting if Moraine came out in Lanfears body:P??

[Verbal32]

wouldn't it be interesting if Moraine came out in Lanfears body:P??

 

While I don't think that is very likely, I'm sure Thom would love it!!!! Not that Moiraine was anything less than borderline beautiful, but Lanfear? :shock:

[Luckers]

I always thought that it was a punishment administerd by the Dark One (or Shaidar Haran) for Cyndane to be weaker in the power than she was as Lanfear. Didn't she try to kill Rand that day she went through the doorway with Rand? I thought it was made clear to the forsaken that he was not to be killed.

 

It makes no sense for the Dark One to punish Lanfear in this manner, for it effectivelly weakens himself. And he HAS shown an understanding of the value of both the Forsaken, their knowledge, and their strength. He has her bound by cour'souvra, the ultimate punishment, meaning that there is no chance whatsoever that she could ever challange him.

 

Finally if it was a punishment, then you can be sure that he would have made it known to the others. At the moment they simply concluded she wasn't Lanfear.

 

Lanfears weakness, as ive said many times, makes sense.

 

She was channeling massive amounts of the power, as she fell through a ter'angreal, engaged in a fight with another channeler, also channeling all that she could channel. That ter'angreal was destroyed by this. Indeed i would be disapointed if they weren't severed after all the blow up about the dangers of ter'angreal.

 

Moreover though, since then we have seen Lan's bond severed, which we have only seen occur through death and stilling, and since Moiraine didn't die... Then we have Lanfears weakness, again an effect we have only seen following severing. Finally we have the fact that the Finns somehow managed to contain both Lanfear and Moiraine for some time, despite the fact that we HAVE seen that channeling has an effect on them, and Lanfear knows all the secrets of dealing with them... certainly enough to think of fire.

 

And then we have the fact that at the time Cyndane was recycled, the dark only knew of female channelers having the ability to heal severing. Aside from which, why would the Dark One go to the effort of healing Cyndane when a cronie can be sent for... and it would not even take long. One dream message to Aran'gar, and a gateway trip later a Black Sister is there to restore Cyndanes ability.

 

Two effects that we have only seen from severing, combined with the fact of them being contained in Finnland, and the destruction of the ter'angreal. Theres too much pushing for it.

[Lady Saravhem]

I think another reason for Lan's and Moriene's bond disappearing is the realm she went into is not really their world, not even one of the parallel what if worlds, but something completely and totally different and being there does something that voids the bond. Boy wouldn't Nyneave just loved it if when Mor. came back Lan's bond to her sprang back up. She'd tugged that damn braid of her's right off the back of her skull.

Then again it could be that Mor was burned out by falling through the doorframe.

[Luckers]

You forget that Moiraine has been in that world before, without it snapping the bond.

 

And no, the bond will not return. It was snapped by whatever occured, enough that it resulted in the death-consumption effect.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You forget that Moiraine has been in that world before, without it snapping the bond.

 

Not to mention the worlds are still connected. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn share a world, and the Aelfinn door in Tear is fine. Distance alone doesn't break the bond.

 

I'm personally pretyy sure Moiraine and Lanfear were both stilled.

[slayerA]

I think that, 1, Aes Sedai can release there bonds on warders. 2, Moiraine had fore knowledge what would happen to her.

 

I think that she released Lan, to pass him to another so he would not be a waste to himself. She knew that Lan could not rescue her, that he would have died trying. Plus she knew that Lan loves Nynaeve, I think she always intended that Nynaeve have Lan's bond, and there is a VERY strong hint in the books about that.

He was compelled to have his bond passed without his consent. There are only 3 ways to lose a bond, stilled, killed, or released, and we know she was not killed. But that is what Lan believes.

 

As for Moiraine all we know she that she is alive and trapped.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think that, 1, Aes Sedai can release there bonds on warders. 2, Moiraine had fore knowledge what would happen to her.

 

Those statements are both true. However, when an Aes Sedai voluntarily releases her Warder, it feels different to him than it does when the bond is severed by death or being burnt out/stilled. Given Lan's reaction, we know that Moiraine did not voluntarily release the bond.

 

Also, the alteration she made in the bond which passed it to Myrelle was set to activate upon her death/stilling.

 

Actually, this is one of the things that to me that demonstrates the depth of her resolve. She states in her letter to Thom that everyone would believe her dead. That means she knew that Lan would think she was dead, and the only way that could be the case is if the bond was forcibly broken. Moiraine knew that the only way the bond could be broken like that without killing her was for her to be burnt out/stilled. Yet even knowing the price to herself and to Lan, she did it anyway.

[Luckers]

Indeed. When Aes Sedai intentionally release the bond, it doesn't cause the death-consumption effect (which, it should be remembered, is an actual effect of the snapping of the bond, not just the warders natural grief). Lan experienced the death consumption, ergo the bond was not severed.

 

Aside from which we are with Moiraine through her last moments in this dimension. She draws the power and throughs herself and Lanfear, with no pause while she stops to weave the complex weave to release the bond, and if RJ's comment on why Rina hadn't released Elyas is correct, then once she was in Finnland it was too late.

[Lady Saravhem]

I don't think stilling completely severs the warder bond, it seems that it would, and that if a person were healed the bond would be gone. But it is not so, remember when Siuan was healed, once she was over the initial shock and happiness of having her power restored she started to experience the intense grief and sadness for her warder, who was killed when she was deposed, and she kept feeling the need to cry wail and scream. This could mean that when one is healed the bond is resumed. Possibly Lan could be bonded to Mor, and Myrelle, or so it seems.

[Luckers]

Those feelings are the side-effects of a severed bond. When she was healed she suffered from that psychic injury, as indeed Moiraine will suffer from her severed bond.

[kobra_khan69]

Winter's Heart- With the Choedan Kal:

 

Then the woman struck back at her' date=' and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman [b']could[/b] be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.

 

I think this only proves that Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was when she went in not when she came out. Her power may have grown or diminished it isn't stated as being which one. I am reading some more into the matter right now.

 

 

I havent found the meeting with th forsaken in I think Graendals view point or maybe mesanna's but I am positive they say something about her stregnth. I'll find it before I go to sleep though.

 

 

 

Found it:

 

Paperback - The Path of Daggers: New Alliances Page 291-292

 

"What brings you and your friend Moghedien?" Graendal asked. The Spider was the very last she had expected to come out from the shadows. "Have no fear of speaking in front of my servants." She gestured, and the pair by the door sank to their knees,pressed their faces to the floor. They would not quite fall dead by her simple command, but close.

"What interest can you find in them when you destroy anything that might make them interesting?" Cyndane demanded, striding arrogantly across the floor. She held herself very straight, struggling for every hair of height. "Do you know that Sammael is dead?"

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with little effort.She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close....The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women. On the instant, on instinct, she changed her intention to deny any contact with Sammael.

 

 

Editing again:

 

I could be wrong but I am almost positive that being healed by a woman reduces your strength drastically, I think it was down to 1/3 or 2/3 of the normal strength I'm finding the exact quote for this thought.

 

 

Paperback - Lord of Chaos: To Heal Again Page 603

 

Leane shook her head. "Noone has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others would see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

 

 

Alright with that quote taken into account do you think that Lanfear was twice as strong if not 3 times as strong as one of the most powerful female Aes Sedai of their Age? Graendal was stronger than most men who could channel and it was very rare for a female to be stronger than her. I tend to think that this makes Lanfear/Cyndane's power greater rather than less than what it was before she went into Finland.

 

 

Feel free to dispute the point I don't mind reading others points of view on a subject and this one can go either way I guess.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Winter's Heart, chapter 13, Demandred's POV.

 

She [Cyndane] was a puzzle to Demandred. At first he thought she was Lanfear reincarnated ... He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear.

 

Cyndane is weaker in the power than Lanfear was. We know from her POV in Winter's Heart chapter 35 that Cyndane is Lanfear. We also know from Aran'gar and Osan'gar that becoming weaker in the Power is not a natural result of transmigration.

 

The only phenomenon that we have seen in which a person has retained the ability to channel, but become weaker, is when a person has been cut off from the Source, and Healed by someone of the same gender. Since that scenario fits Lanfear perfectly (we know she was right next to a melting ter'angreal, and the warnings about being burnt out from malfunctioning ter'angreal saturate the later books) it is almost certainly the case that not only she, but both she and Moiraine were burnt out by their proximity to a violently malfunctioning ter'angreal.

 

The only real reason, in my opinion, that many people find this difficult to go with, is that it pokes very, very large holes in the theory that either of them killed Asmodean.

[kobra_khan69]

I know that Lanfear is Cyndane you provided the proof that she was weaker now though.

 

Anyway I still say that she couldnt have been healed by a woman because that would have reduced her down to much less than 2/3 of her previous strength because of my previous quote.

 

Paperback - Lord of Chaos: To Heal Again Page 603

Leane shook her head. "Noone has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others would see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

 

There could be some other reason as to why the Aes Sedai were reduced so drastically of co0urse. Maybe the length of their being stilled has something to do with it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There could be some other reason as to why the Aes Sedai were reduced so drastically of co0urse. Maybe the length of their being stilled has something to do with it.

 

I personally think that the difference between being severed or stilled (with a weave of the Power), and being burnt out (by any of several methods), creates a slightly different "wound" that reacts differently when Healed. That theory is based entirely on the apparent difference which you pointed out, in the degree of Power-loss experienced by Cyndane compared with that experienced by Siuan and Leane.

 

That is not the only possible explanation, but it's the one I personally think is most likely.

[kobra_khan69]

Of course it could be a relevance issue. Lanfear may have been powerful enough to be weakened down to less than 2/3 her strength and still be more powerful than Graendal considering she was second only to Ishmael in power. And Ishy and Rand/LTT are/were about even. I guess it would depends on alot of factors.

 

Graendal says she would never dream of fighting Rand head on so that says she's substantially weaker than him. Maybe she is down to about 1/2 power or so. If she is then damn she was strong when she was at 100%.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lanfear may have been powerful enough to be weakened down to less than 2/3 her strength and still be more powerful than Graendal considering she was second only to Ishmael in power.

 

I think its highly unlikely that Lanfear was that far ahead of Graendal, but we don't have a number scale.

 

Graendal says she would never dream of fighting Rand head on so that says she's substantially weaker than him.

 

Well ... I think it speaks more to Graendal's choice to subscribe to the "she who runs away lives until she doesn't have to fight another day" school of thought. Rand is stronger than Graendal, certainly, but I doubt he's double her weight, metaphorically speaking.

[kobra_khan69]

Your probably right I am just trying to validate the healed by a woman theory.

[Gentled Ben]

Robert wrote:

 

I think its highly unlikely that Lanfear was that far ahead of Graendal, but we don't have a number scale.

 

There's an interesting one here:

 

 

http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1331&Category=Angreal

[kobra_khan69]

That list is wrong.

 

Hardcover - The World of Robert Jordans the Wheel of Time : The Female Forsaken and Darkfriends Page 61

 

Lanfear

 

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishmael, was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

This implies that she was second only to Ishy in power. That number scale is most likely skewed sorry.

[Gentled Ben]

I only said it was interesting, not that it was canon. Besides, there's more than one way to be powerful. Her abilities in TAR alone make her powerful, and there's a suggestion in tEOtW that Aginor is 2nd to Ishamael in strength.

 

Lanfear is capable of pushing her own agenda while thwarting the plans of the other Forsaken, a trait for which she's despised by some of them, and while that constitutes power, it doesn't necessarily require incredible strength in the OP. It's also unlikely that all of the male Forsaken, except for Ishamael, are weaker than Lanfear, since Asmodean tells us that men are stronger than women in the OP to the same general degree and in the same basic ratio as they are stronger than women physically, and with roughly the same number of exceptions. Clearly, a woman with the greatest strength possible would be stronger than most men, but these men are renowned for their strength; they're not most men. Balthamel, the Guide tells us, was kept on at his teaching position despite his poor behavior and foul temper largely because of his unusual strength in the Power, and he isn't even considered one of the strongest male FS.

 

Anyway, the chart, despite the flaws it likely contains, gives us something to consider and work with as we try to answer the question, "How could Lanfear lose so much strength, yet remain stronger than Graendal?" I have also seen a chart that went from 1-20, with modern aes sedai well down in the single digits, Graendal enjoying a place around 12, and Cyndane, after being taken down a few notches from where she had stood as Lanfear,coming in at 13 or 14. Either way, it's possible that she was stilled somehow and Healed by a woman, and indeed, that seems to make the most sense. Wasn't there a long thread about just this very thing a couple of months ago? :?

 

I'm almost certain that that's where I saw the other chart. Anyway, perhaps we could use it as a visual aid...

[kobra_khan69]

Your right about the power thing but I am running on the assumption that power means OP considering thats what it means when talking about the male Chosen. Also the fact that the only way the Chosen were different from each other in respect to power was their strength in Saidar or Saidin.

 

The Spider is the most powerful in TAR not Lanfear its just that Moghedien prefers not to face Lanfear in a direct confrontation and so lets Lanfear believe that she has dominion over TAR. I cant quote this exactly right now but I will try to find it later.

 

It says that Aginor is the second most powerful man which implies that there may be a woman in the middle of Ishy and Aginor but not necessarily. I could be completely wrong in this I know but it seems logical that power in this would be one power since when talking about Ishy they say specifically that he was believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power.

 

Post your thoughts on this. Oh and don't get upset anything I say is just my personal opinion I don't mean to offend anyone or to come off as rude I am just trying to make my points.