The Min Problem

[The Outsider]

When Rand seals the bore anew' date=' it will completely seal away the true source from which the one power is taken. After Rand seals the bore, no one in Randland will be able to channel anymore.

[/quote']

 

I disagree. As we saw from Rand's veiwings in Rhuidean, it was people in the Age of Legends who had the ability to channel who created the bore in the first place. Therefore, while the DO can give people the protection needed to use the True Source without being destroyed, he is not the source of the TS. The One Power will unaffected by the bore.

[cloglord]

Min's viewing: "Alivia will help you die"

 

Aelfinn answer: "To live you must die"

 

Nicola's Foretelling: "He who was dead yet lives"

 

First Robert, you take Min's viewing out of context. She actually said to Rand that Alivia was going to kill him, upon which Rand corrected her telling her that killing him, and helping to die were not the same thing. Clearly, Rand has some scheme up his sleeve. His question within the Tear doorframe clearly indicates that he is interested in surviving the LB. Yet, he seems completely unconcerned about Min's viewing. That is except when Min incorrectly quotes herself, then he feels the need to point out the semantic differences. I can only conclude that Rand has a plan.

 

Secondly your other two quotes also specifically mention Rand living through TG. It doesn't say that he has to die to die, it says he has to die to live. The idea of dying in order to live seems like a pretty tall order, unless it doesn't actually mean his death, but instead the appearance of his death. I would reference you to the quote about Logain stepping over Rand's fake body, but I already did. The meaning of the prophecy seems pretty clear to me. If Rand doesn't want to die for real in the post TG scuffle, he needs to have Alivia help him fake his death, so that he can get out of the limelight. That seems like the type of plan that Rand would cook up, and would explain both his unconcern about Alivia's upcoming part, and the dream about Logain stepping over the fake body.

[rd2000]

Clog, Min said to Rand that Alivia was going to kill him, BUT, that was her emotion speaking. Rand corrected her by basically repeating her prophecy back to her,.....that Alivia would help him die, not that she would kill him. The reason I am repeating what you said, is because it appears to me you are disputing Min's foretelling that Alivia will help him die, and interjecting it with Min's statement that Alivia will kill him.

 

"die to die" or "die to live" still means dying.

 

He wasn't told that he had to appear to die, or had to make other's believe he was dead. He was told he had to DIE. Pretty black and white there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

First Robert, you take Min's viewing out of context. She actually said to Rand that Alivia was going to kill him, upon which Rand corrected her telling her that killing him, and helping to die were not the same thing.

 

No, Min took her own viewing out of context, which rd2000 pointed out, and which Rand called her on.

 

"Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you." Rand replies, "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

 

(Winter's Heart, chapter 25)

 

The phrase "help me die" came from Min's viewing, not "she is going to kill you".

 

Clearly, Rand has some scheme up his sleeve. His question within the Tear doorframe clearly indicates that he is interested in surviving the LB. Yet, he seems completely unconcerned about Min's viewing. That is except when Min incorrectly quotes herself, then he feels the need to point out the semantic differences. I can only conclude that Rand has a plan.

 

I completely agree with that. But the fact that he has a plan just makes it more likely that he is going to die, since that is what he constantly thinks to himself. He knows he's going to die, and he has a plan to deal with it.

 

I think that is his third answer from the Aelfinn. I probably went something like this:

 

Rand: "How can I cleanse saidin?"

 

Aelfinn: They give him the riddle answer

 

Rand: "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

 

Aelfinn: "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

Rand: ... "How can I live by dying?"

 

Aelfinn: Cool answer that we don't know about yet, but Rand knows.

 

You notice when Min talked about Alivia helping him die, Rand seemed to accept it easily, as if a last piece of the puzzle had just come together. Yes, I agree completely that Rand has a plan. I'm just fairly sure that his plan involves dying.

 

Secondly your other two quotes also specifically mention Rand living through TG. It doesn't say that he has to die to die, it says he has to die to live.

 

Exactly. He lives because he dies.

 

The idea of dying in order to live seems like a pretty tall order, unless it doesn't actually mean his death, but instead the appearance of his death.

 

So, you're saying because it would be out of the difficult and out of the ordinary, he's not likely to do it? How about applying that standard to, I don't know, say, beating the Dark One? Yes, its a pretty tall order. Thats why prophecies get made about it.

 

I would reference you to the quote about Logain stepping over Rand's fake body, but I already did.

 

Since that whole viewing is metaphorical and symbolic, it could mean stepping over his dead body, which is no longer dead when he comes back, as easily as it could mean that he fakes his death. In fact, given the context of the rest of the viewings and prophecies, that is the more likely interpretation.

[Incubate]

If you would live, you must die."

 

 

as any of you considered the fact that everyone who lives must die? It's a riddle meant to make you look for a hidden message, but in fact, there is none...

[RobertAlexWillis]

as any of you considered the fact that everyone who lives must die? It's a riddle meant to make you look for a hidden message, but in fact, there is none...

 

Yes, there is, because of the question to which it was given as an answer. Rand asked:

 

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

 

and the Aelfinn said:

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

In this case, the phrase "if you would live" clearly is the response to Rand's question about surviving the Last Battle. So they're not just talking about the "Circle of Life", they're talking about how to survive a particular incident.

[Thor]

I still feel that LTT will die and Rand will live.

[Guest Barmacral]

I have to agree with you Thor, LTT will die, and the shock of it will knock Rand unconsious, and set his life signs to be so low that he'll seem dead himself.

[rd2000]

I give up.

 

 

:roll:

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... rd2000, are you agreeing with my sentiment, or mocking my return?

 

Either is understandable. :D

[rd2000]

A little of both, mostly agreeing. All in humor though. 8)