Just a little Respect!

[Myyrth]

I don't believe she has a Fox Medallion equivalent. Perhaps she has something to help her detect Saidin yet I have little doubt that what she has wouldn't protect her from balefire or death portals or blossoms of fire, or those needly things!

 

Anyhow, i very much hope he is more formidable than Cadsuane. We need a Dragon Reborn strong and powerful to face the last battle, not one that can be defeated by a Aes Sedai of moderate strength.

 

Also, stop this talk of her being old and having expireance and thats why she would win or be dangerous or whatever! Rand has defeated the Forsaken, they are easily older and more deadly in their knowledge of the power than Cadsuane and Rand has been killing them handily.

 

Anyhow, what her Ter'angreal do are just suppositions, perhaps her supreme self-confidance is why she is not worried about Rand or any Aes Sedai loyal the White Tower embracing the source around her. Not some mysterious arcane protection.

 

Also, Rand has Angreal, Rand has Sa'angreal and Ter'angreal. I'm sure when it comes to resources Rand would come out on top, when it comes down to expireance he has the knowledge of the Age of Legends, which for good or ill is being integrated into him.

 

THE ONE THING! That could end up turning it to cadsuanes favor in any confrontation. Rand is unwilling to harm woman, he couldn't use any of his powerful lethal tricks. I'm sure that Cadsuane has no such reservations.

[Luckers]

There's not a chance in hell, Luckers. If Rand ever did go off the deep end, Cadsuane would be swept away if she tried to face him alone. Nynaeve is stronger than Cadsuane; heck, Egwene and Elayne almost certainly are, and they've both remarked on how much stronger then them Rand is. Considering the insane amount of advanced channeling techniques he's learned both from Asmodean and from LTT's memories, Cads can't have enough of an edge on him in One Power knowledge to set off the immense power imbalance. She might take a moment or two longer than other Aes Sedai, but moments is all it would take

 

Well, A) with her angreal Cadsuane is not actually weaker then Rand. She's probably stronger. B) Cadsuane's ter'angreal make her incredibly dangerous. C) Cadsuane now has the benefit of Forsaken training as well.

 

I'm sorry, but there is no simplicity to it. If it came to a fight between Rand and Cadsuane, whilst yes, I doubt Cadsuane could, or for that matter would, kill Rand, but i also doubt Rand could kill Cadsuane. She is too intelligent, too strong, too knowledgeable and with too many tricks up her sleave.

 

Personally, I see Cadsuane as something of the Mother figure Rand never got to grow up with. If she uses the power to give him a strap for being rude sometimes, its because Rand is being rude (maybe because he never had a Mother to teach him manners). In the end, Cadsuane is not Rand's enemy, but an ally. And to date she has been a very beneficial ally.

 

Cadsuane is not a mother figure, she is more akin to a stern aunt. She knows more and has lived longer, and will not tolerate him acting a fool, but she also doesn't expect to rule his life or to have to protect him from dangers.

[DaShain]

Her angreal is a weak one, by her own admission. It's not going to be nearly enough to bridge the gap.

[Guest Cadsuane]

Poor, poor Rand!! He lost his hand! He's doomed to die! He's blind! He had to kill a woman!! He was kidnapped! Poor poor Rand, let's just excuse him from being required to display any of the good qualities people try their hardest to instill in their children. He shouldn't be required to be polite, to respect other people, or to show common sense or decency. He should be coddled and bowed to and allowed to sink into the deepest depths of self pity and arrogance, because THAT is the way to make him strong enough to beat the Dark. :roll:

 

I think Cadsuane shows him MORE respect than any other person in the book, because she treats him like a REAL PERSON, and there is no more respectful thing one can do for another human being. She acknowledges his faults and tries to show him how to overcome them, to the best of her knowledge. Yes, that DOES in fact require her to take him down a peg, since he has shown himself to be woolheaded enough to ignore politer suggestions. She believes he CAN fight the DO and succeed, she believes no man is an island, and is doing her best to keep Rand on a human level. She is helping him redevelop his strength of character, which WILL be necessary to win at Tarmon Gaidon. She keeps him from descending into himself and his personal weaknesses. To do anything less would be the lack of respect.

[Myyrth]

:lol:

 

Indeed poor Rand, I couldn't imagine how hard his job has been. Perhaps i'd enjoy seeing Cadsuane bow and scrape in front of Rand, but switching his bottom for yelling is something else entirly. I guess I agree with the second paragraph, yet your sarcastic rant was some what silly. Yes all those things happened to him and if u really think about how trying those events are, you might come to realize just how strong Rand already is. I'd think he is probably a pretty polite person who hasn't forgotten the lessons taught him as a child. Yet circumstances dictate the discourse of any given situation, If rand is rude to someone along the way. Tough luck, get over it, he's got more important things to worry about that peoples feelings.

 

Try and teach him compassion, try and teach him humility, yet Cadsuane uses a club when she should use perhaps ruler. If not for Min's viewing, Rand would have thrown her out a long while ago. Rand nearly did throw her out regardless of Min's viewing! Respect Rand? She doesn't respect Rand, she doesn't care about Rand. She uses him like any other Aes Sedai, she just want's to make "flexible" so he can fight and win the last battle.

 

Come to think of it Cadsuane could use some lessons in Manners herself, She is just as cold-blooded as any other Sister. When it comes down to a show of ruthlessness, i'm sure Cadsuane would give Rand a run for his money.

 

I think Rand should start switching Cadsuane when she goes to far. Or have Mat give her a spanking :D . I would laugh so hard. I still can't identify any one particular trait about Cadsuane that makes her either formidable or even all that wise.

 

The one thing I think she has had right so far is that Rand needs to learn how to bend rather than harden evermore as the pain of his path affects him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't believe she has a Fox Medallion equivalent.

 

As a side note, RJ said she did. This is from his blog:

 

For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat’s amulet. Cadsuane has one much like it.

 

here: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

[Myyrth]

Yet do we have any idea whether it works against saidin or saidar or if it functions the same way?

[Safia al-Maaz]

I forget, does Mat's foxhead work against both Saidin and Saidar? Or was it just Saidar?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I forget' date=' does Mat's foxhead work against both Saidin and Saidar? Or was it just Saidar?[/quote']

 

It works against both saidar and saidin. Halima tried using a weave on him in Salidar once and was rather shocked when nothing happened.

[Myyrth]

I don't remember, does the Medallion turn hot when touched by Saidin?

[Guest Barmacral]

No, it goes ice cold when touched by either half of the true source.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While it is not stated explicitly, it is very, very likely that Cadsuane's ter'angreal works against saidin, because it is part of a set made during or just after the Breaking (according to her in CoT, ch. 23) and the main concern at that time was protection from men who could channel (which she mentions in the same part).

[Myyrth]

I thought Rand has used the power on her at some point? It seems like he would have.

[Telcar]

Cadsuane said:

 

Poor, poor Rand!! He lost his hand! He's doomed to die! He's blind! He had to kill a woman!! He was kidnapped! Poor poor Rand, let's just excuse him from being required to display any of the good qualities people try their hardest to instill in their children. He shouldn't be required to be polite, to respect other people, or to show common sense or decency. He should be coddled and bowed to and allowed to sink into the deepest depths of self pity and arrogance, because THAT is the way to make him strong enough to beat the Dark.

 

I think Cadsuane shows him MORE respect than any other person in the book, because she treats him like a REAL PERSON, and there is no more respectful thing one can do for another human being. She acknowledges his faults and tries to show him how to overcome them, to the best of her knowledge. Yes, that DOES in fact require her to take him down a peg, since he has shown himself to be woolheaded enough to ignore politer suggestions. She believes he CAN fight the DO and succeed, she believes no man is an island, and is doing her best to keep Rand on a human level. She is helping him redevelop his strength of character, which WILL be necessary to win at Tarmon Gaidon. She keeps him from descending into himself and his personal weaknesses. To do anything less would be the lack of respect.

 

By far the best post on this topic....

 

Cadsuane is a great character. Her biggest flaw is that she doesn't give Nynaeve the respect she deserves.

 

And stop whining about what RAND has to go through.....lot's of people have to go through a lot more than him. I would really feel sorry for him though if for example Min dies or something.

 

Rand is approaching the Dragon Reborn thing IMO at a slightly wrong angle. Most of the things he's done to "Harden himself" and such are completely useless. And WOW it so annoyed me when he didn't embrace saidar before he met up with Semrihage at the end of KOD he's embraced Saidar a number of times earlier than needed but why didn't he do it there?! It's common sense for a man who is the dragon reborn and has a crazy man in his head who tries to take Saidar away from him when he needs really needs it.

 

P.S. He should chill out...get a beer or something, for a night or two.:P Rand needs to stop whining and laugh for a minute....and that's exactly why Cadsuane is there.

[Guest Barmacral]

Man, I hate it when he doesn't embrace Saidar too, 11 books and he's managed it what... once? Makes the whole series a waste IMO if he doesn't start embracing Saidar more often. At least he made up for the lack of it in the fisrt 8 books by using the Choedan Kal.

[Myyrth]

Actual Rand almost never whines. He doesn't seems to regret who he is or what he must do. Besides getting the Maidens killed that is, he's got to grow up in that regard. If the chicks want to die for him, let them go and die.

 

Nope no whining.

 

You're right though, I do in fact know at least three people currently who just lost a hand with wounds that never heal and cause horrible agony at all hours of the day and are currently being driven to madness by a voice in his head that he can't trust and surrounded by people he can't trust. All the while these three people are doomed to die in a battle they never chose for themselves.

 

Yep your right, Rand's actually got it pretty good.

 

:arrow: *sarcasm* :?:

[Telcar]

LOL.....sorry but I never said that he "had it good"......

 

and Rand doesn't whine openly but in his head there is never ending whining....

 

Myyrth said:

 

You're right though, I do in fact know at least three people currently who just lost a hand with wounds that never heal and cause horrible agony at all hours of the day and are currently being driven to madness by a voice in his head that he can't trust and surrounded by people he can't trust. All the while these three people are doomed to die in a battle they never chose for themselves.

 

ah yes....physical pain is all u think about....seems to me that he has blocked those out pretty nicely, Rand has it very bad physically but he can pretty much blame himself about his mental problems (aside from LTT ofc:P). Rand has it extremely bad, but he doesn't whine about that. YOU are the one who whines about how bad Rand has it and you think that that's why everyone here should worship him. Rand lost his hand....you whine....he hardly cares:P.

[Telcar]

Myyrth

 

He doesn't seems to regret who he is or what he must do........All the while these three people are doomed to die in a battle they never chose for themselves.

 

one more thing...like you said...he doesn't seem to regret it.

[Myyrth]

Rand is just my favorite character in the series so i tend to speak with a Bias. Just as others seem to worship the ground Cadsuane walks on, I just see her as just another Aes Sedai who is perhaps slightly more well intentioned.

 

I understand how neccesary Cadsuanes job is, but I also recognize that no one here could comprehend what Rand has gone through.

 

Come on think about it, it's amazing he's able to carry on. His mental and physical fortitude is amazing, I don't see how that can be argued against.

 

And no, I don't believe he whines very much. He rips himself apart for having to kill woman, I think he has learned to bottle everything up. NOT a wise decision or a healthy one, but it's hardly unexpected. Plenty of people with normal everyday problems whine and complain a lot more than Rand does with little to no reason.

 

Rand is human, so allow him human flaws and respect him for struggling against them. I've been willing to reasses my opinions of Cadsuane, but you seem focused on attacking me personally.

 

I only ask that people try and put aside their Bias and actually look at the strengths and flaws of each character.

 

Cadsuane makes mistakes, she approachs Rand in the wrong way and while lecturing people on arrogance and rudeness she herself is subject to the same flaw.

 

Rand, is a mental wreck. has turned himself so hard and brittle he is starting to break. He's personally tortured over what he believes is required of him. Both characters are flawed, yet I find Rand a more human and compelling character than Cadsuane Sedai. Thus I support and argue for his side.

 

So instead of attacking me personally, argue Cadsuanes case and maybe allow some open-mindedness to what i'm saying too.

 

PS. Gimme a break? Told you to worship Rand? I haven't told you to do anything. I've just been talking about Rand from my POV.

[Telcar]

hahah sorry...:P came off a little offensive there :P often forget you can't feel my mood here :P so sorry about that, didn't mean to attack you personally.

 

Rand is one of my favourite characters. Like him better than Cadsuane by far. It's just that he does the Dragon Reborn thing wrong...approaches it at a wrong angle I believe I said. She's there to put him right back on track.

 

Rand is having a hard time right now. He just needs to get help from other people instead of expecting them to help because he is the Dragon Reborn.

[Myyrth]

I don't think he's ever thought that his friends like Mat or Perrin should help him "because" he was the Dragon Reborn. Yet I see no reason why he should not expect to be obeyed.

 

Unquestioning obediance from people like his generals and soldiers and Asha'man is something he is entitled too. NOT ONLY BECAUSE HE'S THE DR, but because of his own merit and authority. I even think that the Aes Sedai bound to him and the Aes Sedai he talks to should not expect to be treated with any great amount of respect.

 

Cadsuane has a diffrent relationship dynamic to him though, same as Davram Bashere and Min or even Logain.

 

Yet he should expect to recieve Obediance, how can he win TG if while he's fighting the Great Lord he gives and order and they do not obey.

 

He is more King than the King of Illian and more Emperor than the Empress of Seanchan. I don't see why everyone gets frustrated with Rand when he orders somebody around.

 

Accepting all this, he should still be more sensitive to those under his authority.

[Telcar]

Yes I agree with the obedience thing with the common soldiers and such....but let's face it. Rand is a shepherd. Yes he has done and seen a lot these few years he has been "abroad". But there are a lot of people out there who know a lot more than him. Even many who are willing to help him. He should ask those people for help, not expect them to heel like dogs when he want's them to.

[Zardi]

I don't see why everyone gets frustrated with Rand when he orders somebody around.

He has the right to give orders. It's the tantrums he has when he isn't obeyed that annoy people. He handled disobedience much better in earlier books.

 

His personality changes are understandable given what he's gone through, but they aren't healthy for him or his authority. People don't respect leaders who have tantrums, and should these underlings -- with few exceptions -- ever stop fearing him, they'll turn on him. That is what Cadsuane is trying to correct. He needs to relearn to lead by respect, not by fear.

 

and Rand doesn't whine openly but in his head there is never ending whining....

Maybe I genuinely missed it, but where is this whining? Do you have any examples?

 

Rand has it very bad physically but he can pretty much blame himself about his mental problems

Yes and no. As you said yourself, he's a shepherd at heart, so of course he cannot be expected to lead as well as someone who was raised in a palace. And yet, he did a surprisingly good job at first, before the problems started.

 

One major cause of his mental problems (aside from LTT) was his kidnapping, and you can hardly blame him for that. Anyone who is kidnapped and tortured comes away with mental scars which often cannot be resolved without professional help. Rand didn't have the benefit of a good psychiatrist, and yet you somehow expect him to handle all of his hardships in a healthy way. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

 

Furthermore, look who Rand's role models were. Lan and Moiraine -- as far as Rand saw -- rarely expressed any emotion, and when they actually did, they stamped it out as soon as possible. After having this sort of behavior modeled to him, you expect him to realize that it is unhealthy to block out his emotions? Of course, the difference with Moiraine and Lan is that they manage to control their emotions while being strong, rather than suppressing them and turning hard. However, Rand doesn't have the benefit of looking inside their heads as we do, so all he sees is that two people he respects suppress their emotions when things get rough. It is not surprising that he thinks this is the right way to handle his pain.

[Guest Cadsuane]

I agree with Telcar on that point. In the armed forces, people in charge are there (ostensibly) because they have knowledge and experience and have proven themselves to be capable leaders. THAT is why the people taking orders from them are supposed to obey.

 

On the other hand, Rand is "in charge" only because he was born the DR. He doesn't have all that much experience or knowledge, and as a leader he generally gets what he wants through force, fear, and manipulation, not from good leadership. Yes, being the DR is a big deal, no doubt. But it doesn't entitle him to mindless obedience when his decisions are uninformed, biased because of his emotional problems, and often rather childish.

 

Also, I don't think Cadsuane is arrogant in the least. She doesn't look for or require the silly obeyance (sp?) that most people give her for the stupid reason of her strength in the OP. She doesn't give a rat's rear end for people bowing and scraping to her, she just wants to get the job done. However, she does believe people should be polite, Not just to her, but in general. She doesn't care what people think about her, and I can see how that can be read as arrogance. The difference is that arrogance requires an audience to observe how "great" the person is, and her self-confidence does not. She is secure in who she is, what she knows, and the ways in which she can help Rand become who he needs to be.

[Myyrth]

Zardi's post paints the perfect psychological framework I was trying to establish!

 

Accepting that this is a book, and that RJ might not have done a lot of research on trauma recovery. The approach Cadsuane is taking towards healing Rand is both blunt and unlikely to do anything more than drive her "patient" away from her.

 

Now i'm not trying to sound like an expert, as my knowledge is based only on the schooling a psych major has received by second semester freshman year! :P

 

Yet there is NO reason whatsoever he should behave in this mature self-possessed way people seem to want him too. I'd even say some of his Tantrums are justified considering the way his plans can sometimes fall apart because of the failures of others.

 

Seriously Cadsuane? Seriously now? During my last reading, it was my impression that many of his military plans and strategies where his own. He has been immmensly succesful, binding entire nations to his will through more than just his name as the Dragon Reborn. Rand Al'thor has proven to be both a shrewd manipulater and general on equal to or on par with many great rulers of the day. In fact after a certain point he was barely even following Moiraines advice anymore, he revolutionized state support for the poor got trade running again in his conquered nations. With help he constructed the Legion of the Dragon and created the Asha'man.

 

Good god, the list goes on. Rand Al'thor did these things. He's not merely a farmer with a fancy title and the ability to channel as you seem to think. Rand Al'thor defeated the Ever Victorious Army, not some general guiding his hand.

 

Cadsuane expects to be obeyed, maybe she doesn't care about bowing and scraping. Yet she expects when she tells someone to do something they do it.