Just a little Respect!

[Myyrth]

To put it bluntly, I despise Cadsuane. That arrogant prissy little Aes Sedai needs to be put down hard. I think i'd still her honestly, if I was Rand. I'd still her and laugh while doing it.

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, he's the real live incarnation of Lew's Therin. This destiny was thrust on him and he's faced it head on and suffered terribly for it, and apparently he is expected to die for the world as well. Yet still he must face the minor annoyances of his compatriots, Logain? I like him, he's proud but when push comes to shove he knows his place. Cadsuane and the other Aes Sedai on the other hand don't seem to realize just how insignificant they are.

 

Also I don't care about Min's viewing, Min can stuff that viewing down her tight breeches for all I care. If Cadsuane wants to help Rand blood Al'thor she comes to him on her knees. Rand just lost his bloody hand for them.

 

Cadsuane and the rest are just lucky that Rand isn't the wooldheaded arrogant fool they think he is or the world would truly be doomed. People need to learn how to obey.

[Luckers]

Insignificant? That would be a valid point if Cadsuane truly was insignificant... for instance Elaida railing at the world because its not bowing to her wishes is where the issue of misconstruing ones own significance becomes is important.

 

But Cadsuane? Like it or not she has the power to get things done. She has knowledge, power and influence, and that makes her a player in the game that cannot be ignored. She is not insignificant....

 

And kneel to Rand? And learn to obey? Why should she? She has no need to, and if push came to shove and he tried to make her i rather suspect he would fail. Cadsuane is not to be shrugged aside lightly in an open confrontation.

 

Rand was foolish in his dealing with her. He tried to intimidate her, and when that failed threw a tantrum and gave up. Cadsuane leaves him looking like a child everytime they meet because he is acting like a child. Why should she lessen herself merely because he doesn't have the maturity to handle someone like her. I don't think she cares who he is, or whatever sense of obscure entitlement you think that gives him.

[Magicana]

I've always taken her as taking people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are. That is why she doesn't kneel to Rand. She feels he doesn't deserve it.

[Myyrth]

My argument is that for all the strength and nobility he has and the sacrifices he is making for both her and the world, he deserves her respect and humility. Nothing, Cadsuane has done will measure up to what he is preparing to do, she is consumed by her own self-conceit, and her devotion to that den of snakes and vermin which is the White Tower.

 

WHO Rand is? Rand is a man who struggles everday with the sacrifices he is forced to make. Who's only hope is that the people he loves will not be harmed. His only really selfish desire IMO is a sincere desire that when all is done with he will be allowed to die.

 

The agony he suffers, the wound's he carries should be reminders to that arrogant cow Cadsuane that she stands before a man who has given everything so that she might continue spin her little webs.

 

Rand Al'thor has very legitimate reasons to hate Aes Sedai, I am surprised he assosciates with them in even a marginally respectful way. Cadsuane seems to think that just because she's lived a while and wears a ring it means she can order around the Dragon Reborn.

 

And if push came to shove, Rand with the knowledge of the Age of Legends and greater strength in the power would come out on top. Also he has Asha'man at his command if his nausea problem gets in the way.

[Luckers]

Cadsuane has no especial devotion to the white tower, which is made more then clear. And yes Rand is significant in the struggle against the shadow... so what, everyone else should cease to exist?

 

Cadsuane doesn't need to compare herself to others to have a sense of self-worth, and Rand could do with learning that. His posturing when it comes to Logain has made him blind to the threat of Taim, and is driving a wedge between someone who could have been an imensely useful tool to him. Now rather then a loyal leiutenant he has a resentful lackey who does his bidding only because he has to.

 

Again and again Rand's self-important posturing has gotten him in trouble, and the fact that Cadsuane refuses to play along merely because of who Rand is does not make her a fool. Rand needs to learn self-control, and if his temper tantrums keep leaving him looking like a child then sooner or later he will learn.

 

But because Rand is some tragic hero in your eyes, you seem to feel personally slighted that she refuses to compromise herself just because he is acting like a child. Yes he deserves respect for what he seeks to attempt, the saving of the world, but no he doesn't deserve to have everyone instantly capitulate to his every whim because of it.

 

And i think your wrong. Between her ter'angreal, her experience, and her intelligence Cadsuane would make a very, very dangerous enemy.

[Myyrth]

wooah doggy, I think we both need to calm down. It's just a book. We both disagree on this, the reason I love Rand so much is that he is indeed a flawed and tragic character. Think of the changes that have been forced on him, the danger and the threats he has gone through. He deserves respect, are you going to argue that he doesn't? Cause if not, let the Great Lord take the world.

 

If anything Cadsuane is the only Aes Sedai I have even a moderate amount of respect for, just because she has the stones to stand up to a man on such a hair trigger.

 

Yet i'm biased i'll admit that, I don't even like Egwene now she's Amyrilian, she wastes so much time with the White Tower when it is Tarmon Gaidin that should be worrying people. It's just that Rand seems to be the only one seriously concerned about the end of the world.

 

Self-important? Rand is just doing what is neccesary to preserve them all from a horrible doom, he doesn't do it for his own personal gain. I can't imagine forgiving the Aes Sedai after all they've put him through. Oh bah blah about how it was only some renegade Aes Sedai who kidnapped and tortured him. He was bonded against his will for godsake! All the Aes Sedai he knows are trying to use them and a good 1/3 he's met have tried to kill or enslave him.

 

Also, if Cadsuane had her way she would have Rand Al'thor kissing her ring and preparing her bath water, the only reason she hasn't tried to force him into sub-serviance is because she knows he'd probably end up breaking away from her entirly viewing or no.

 

Very Dangerous, but not insurmountable. I do not hold Cadsuane to be the equal of the Forsaken in combat with the power. She is still a product of the ignornance and malice of the White Tower. Consider her disdain for Wilders? She can be just as blind as most other Aes Sedai. Rand would win, *shrug* simple as that.

[Luckers]

I do not think a person throwing a temper tantrum deserves to be treated with respect, no. Yes, i think that his intentions, and efforts are noble, and i would treat him with respect worthy of that were he acting in a manner that fits with that.

 

Self-important? Rand is just doing what is neccesary to preserve them all from a horrible doom, he doesn't do it for his own personal gain. I can't imagine forgiving the Aes Sedai after all they've put him through. Oh bah blah about how it was only some renegade Aes Sedai who kidnapped and tortured him. He was bonded against his will for godsake! All the Aes Sedai he knows are trying to use them and a good 1/3 he's met have tried to kill or enslave him.

 

He doesn't do it for his own personal gain, but he does let his own personal prejudice get in his way, as with the way he reacts to Logain. The way other Aes Sedai have acted against him is horrid, and he should not let that go.

 

But does that mean that him acting like an idiot should be ignored? Do their actions mean Cadsuane should in any way lessen herself? I certainly wouldn't, were i her. Indeed, her acknowledgement of their reprehensibility is part of what makes me acknowledge them.

 

To date Cadsuane has not done wrong by Rand. When he acts like a child, she treats him like a child, just as she does everyone else.

 

Also, if Cadsuane had her way she would have Rand Al'thor kissing her ring and preparing her bath water, the only reason she hasn't tried to force him into sub-serviance is because she knows he'd probably end up breaking away from her entirly viewing or no.

 

I've seen no particular need on her behalf for him to act subserviant. Indeed, I respect Cadsuane in large part because she will give people the respect they deserve. In Sorilea she sees a self-aware, intelligent woman, and is willing to deal with her as an equal. She gives her respect because Sorilea acts in a way that deserves respect, irreguardless of the fact that stereotypically Aes Sedai should refuse to give any respect at all to a wilder.

 

Verin is the same. Other sisters act like chickens without their heads around Cadsuane, so Cadsuane treats them like chickens without their heads. But Verin acts reasonably and intelligently despite the social presure on her to hero worship the woman, and Cadsuane starts treating her with respect in return.

 

Cadsuane is a woman that treats people as they deserve to be treated, rather then what their social situation suggests they should be treated. Rand is acting like a child, posturing and throwing tantrums, and she treats him thus. And so she should--how will Rand grow if no one pulls him up when he is being an idiot.

 

I agree that Rand is a hero, and that what he has been through is nothing short of incredibly. But he has some deep-seated issues that people have been ignoring for all those reasons. They should not be ignored, and Cadsuane is not ignoring them.

 

Yes, Cadsuane is arrogant. But her arrogance is utterly internalized. Despite your post she never displays a need for subservience. People have a tendency to act that way around her because she refuses to bend her neck to social ques, and she will destroy someone with need... like in Far Madding, and she will respond in kind if someone tries to presure her, but she displays no noticeable desire for control. I mean hell, how many Aes Sedai would have aided Rand at the Cleansing...

 

She refuses to bow, and she also refuses to let who he is stop her from saying that which should be said to him, but that does not make her either wrong.

 

Very Dangerous, but not insurmountable. I do not hold Cadsuane to be the equal of the Forsaken in combat with the power. She is still a product of the ignornance and malice of the White Tower. Consider her disdain for Wilders? She can be just as blind as most other Aes Sedai. Rand would win, *shrug* simple as that.

 

Disdain for Wilders? Strange that, given the respect she gives Sorilea. Strange given the respect she holds Norla in. She may not reguard wilders with any love, but she doesn't let the fact that they are wilders blind her to what they really are. She doesn't try to dismiss them out of hand, or refuse to listen or acknowledge them. Indeed, at times she treats other Aes Sedai with more disdain then she does those wilders.

 

I'm sorry, but i think your wrong. It is not as simple as Rand would win. Indeed, i rather doubt that Rand could dig a grave deep enough to contain Cadsuane.

 

And no... Cadsuane isn't the product of the Aes Sedai training. She has proven herself aware of the shortcomings in Aes Sedai. Wether just Norla, or a number of things, her experiences have freed her of many of misconceptions Aes Sedai act under, and given her the ability to deal with those that she hasn't yet faced if ever she comes accross conflicting information.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What has Cadsuane done, really done to Rand? Save his life at least three times? Gather some actually loyal followers? Be honest?

 

People don't like Cadsuane because she doesn't suffer fools well, and everyone is a fool sometimes. Frankly, Rand seems to have gotten over it. He asks her for advice, and confides in her as much as he confides in anyone. He's done more than just keep her around because of Min's viewing. He's actually becoming more mature about dealing with her than most of the people in here who post about how much they hate her because she's honest, and doesn't bother sugar-coating it, when sugar-coating it wouldn't help.

[Myyrth]

I just think people give Cadsuane far too much credit, she's scary and she has a mysterious legend surrounding her? Suffer fools? Rand is hardly a fool, he just realizes that in the fight to save the world from destruction you can't always be polite to willful Aes Sedai.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand is hardly a fool

 

Rand sometimes acts like a fool, just like everyone else, and that's when she treats him like one. When he's not acting foolish, she is neither dismissive nor rude.

 

I just think people give Cadsuane far too much credit

 

Saving the Dragon Reborn on three separate occasions is hardly something to sneeze at.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I've always taken her as taking people on WHO they are' date=' not WHAT they are. That is why she doesn't kneel to Rand. She feels he doesn't deserve it.[/quote']

 

I see it more as her treating people based on how the person presents themselves.

 

Act like a child (Rand), get treated as a child

Act servile and submissive (various Aes Sedai in Cairhien), get treated as a wimp

Show some backbone (Sorilea, Verin), get respected

Act suspicious (Windfinder and Cairhienin pillow friend), get treated as a suspect

 

Cadsuane is one of the best characters in the story and is one of a very small set of decent Aes Sedai.

[Myyrth]

I see your reasoning, and I can admit it's cooled my ire for Cadsuane. I still can't bring myself to accept or respect Aes Sedai! I don't know what it is about those smug ageless faces, I just think that despite all his faults Rand has proven to be more forgiving than he should and more reasonable than he should to the White Tower.

 

He can't make compromises with Aes Sedai when they seek to control him at every turn. I very much suspect that Egwene would seek to control Rand (probably in a more subtle way than Elaida of course) if she thought she could. The only Aes Sedai I ever respected and liked was Moiraine, and that was because at the very end when Rand finally decided he wouldn't take any more manipulating or controlling she went to him and ASKED to help him.

 

Your arguments have earned Cadsuane my gruging respect, but there is always a bigger fish and I would be most amused to see Mat give her a good paddling!

 

Also, if Rand sometimes acts the fool. Realize that he is probably a little insane and if HE isn't insane, Lews Therin is definatly mad. Cadsuane is trying to teach him to cry again, yet she is not approaching it in a way I expect would work. He is consumed by his guilt at the deaths of the maidens at the danger he puts min through ever day. His self-loathing is such an intersting and appealing facet of his nature. His only emotions anymore seem to be either rage or love for Min, Aviedha and Elayne. He is such a compelling character.

 

Mat follows a close second though, his destiny is so mysterious!

 

Also if Tarmon Gaidin comes around all the Great Lord needs to do is appear in the form of a woman and he wins! lawl!

[DaShain]

I'm sorry' date=' but i think your wrong. It is not as simple as Rand would win. Indeed, i rather doubt that Rand could dig a grave deep enough to contain Cadsuane.[/quote']There's not a chance in hell, Luckers. If Rand ever did go off the deep end, Cadsuane would be swept away if she tried to face him alone. Nynaeve is stronger than Cadsuane; heck, Egwene and Elayne almost certainly are, and they've both remarked on how much stronger then them Rand is. Considering the insane amount of advanced channeling techniques he's learned both from Asmodean and from LTT's memories, Cads can't have enough of an edge on him in One Power knowledge to set off the immense power imbalance. She might take a moment or two longer than other Aes Sedai, but moments is all it would take.

 

That's not to say she's a weakling, or even that it particularly matters. What Cadsuane has to teach Rand has nothing to do with the One Power; her worth to him is measured by her experience, her keen mind, and her willingness to stand up to anyone, even him. Rand hasn't gone off the deep end yet, and knows this, if subconsciously, which is why he doesn't simply force her to go away.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Rand hasn't gone off the deep end yet' date=' and knows this, if subconsciously, which is why he doesn't simply force her to go away.[/quote']

 

I don't think Rand is the type of insane most people are used to. They automatically think that if he has a temper tantraum it's because he's gone mad. But honestly, how else is he supposed to let out his feelings sometimes? He pens up his anger and pain until he can do nothing else but explode. But that's not insanity. If you take LTT's idea of insanity being in not trusting anyone, then yeah, Rand could be slightly insane, but he trusts Min more than anyone. Semirhage might be lying in her description of Rand's insanity in KoD, but she also might be telling the truth. But I don't think he's what everyone would picture as insane, but he is somewhat off his rocker.

[The Outsider]

Personally, I see Cadsuane as something of the Mother figure Rand never got to grow up with. If she uses the power to give him a strap for being rude sometimes, its because Rand is being rude (maybe because he never had a Mother to teach him manners). In the end, Cadsuane is not Rand's enemy, but an ally. And to date she has been a very beneficial ally.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Personally' date=' I see Cadsuane as something of the Mother figure Rand never got to grow up with. If she uses the power to give him a strap for being rude sometimes, its because Rand [b']is[/b] being rude (maybe because he never had a Mother to teach him manners). In the end, Cadsuane is not Rand's enemy, but an ally. And to date she has been a very beneficial ally.

 

The general consensus is that Nynaeve is seen more as Rand's mother figure. She was in the same village as him while he grew up, and did most of his disciplining. Not to mention he actually trusts her (to an extent). So, he did have a mother figure as he was growing up. And he had wonderful manners until he started ordering people around. So, Nynaeve was his old mother figure, and Cadsuane is the new one who is whipping him back into shape.

[The Outsider]

The general consensus is that Nynaeve is seen more as Rand's mother figure. She was in the same village as him while he grew up' date=' and did most of his disciplining. Not to mention he actually trusts her (to an extent). So, he did have a mother figure as he was growing up. And he had wonderful manners until he started ordering people around. So, Nynaeve was his old mother figure, and Cadsuane is the new one who is whipping him back into shape.[/quote']

 

I don't know who took part in your 'consensus' but I disagree. An older sister maybe. She is only a few years older, certainly not old enough to have ever been a mother figure who disciplined them as they grew up. She is portrayed as being at the most 5 years older than Rand. By the time she was old enough to become Wisdom they would have already been teenagers. Besides which, Rand and Tam seem to have lived far enough from town that they probably didn't visit that often.

 

I agree though that Rand had better manners when he started off. Just not the maturity to keep them when his situation changed I suppose. At any rate, I still think Cadsuane is his first real Mother-figure insofar as helping him become more mature.

[Myyrth]

Thats all well and good, but Rand doesn't need a mother figure. He needs soldiers and warriors so that he can win Tarmon Gaidin, if she'd turn her "formidable skills" to serious issues instead of giving him a thwak when he's rude to an Aes Sedai (who deserve his rudeness by their very nature).

 

Also, the idea that Rand acts like a child when he raises his voice or gets angry is utterly ridiculous. Grown men get angry all the time, Cadsuane gets angry she's just an ice cold Aes Sedai snake so she doesn't show emotion. For goodness sake she started counting when he raised his voice to a man who had failed him. Her idea of being polite is slightly extreme considering their situation.

[The Outsider]

If Rand weren't screaming and getting angry perhaps he could manipulate people with the efficiency that Cadsuane does herself. That would be far more effective.

 

I think the situation with Rand was best summed up when "tough" was compared to "hard". Tough bends, hard shatters. Rand has made himself hard rather than tough, and he has to learn that lesson if he is to succeed at the last battle.

[Myyrth]

I can accept that, but i believe your dismissing his maniuplative skills to easily.

 

Look at how far he has come, in many ways on his own merit. He can manipulate and play games when he feels it's neccesary.

[Beowolf]

Cadsuane is one of the only actual Aes Sedai I can bring myself to respect. Her, Moiraine, Verin, maybe Suian on a nice day. She treats Rand the way she feels he deserves to be treated, and has done him nothing but good. She also shows that his well being means more to her than that of anyone else, including the white tower. And she respects the Wise ones to boot! :D

[Myyrth]

Meh, just because she's helpful at times doesn't mean I have to like her!

 

Dirty Dirty Aes Sedai!

[Korlaf]

I can accept that' date=' but i believe your dismissing his maniuplative skills to easily.

 

Look at how far he has come, in many ways on his own merit. He can manipulate and play games when he feels it's neccesary.[/quote']

 

Rand has yet to display any serious manipulative skills. He doesn't play people against each other, or do anything sneaky of the sort.

 

Rand's form of manipulation runs something like this...

"I'm the Dragon Reborn, i just took over your country and now i give the orders. If you don't do what i say i'll throw a hissy fit and yell and scream and maybe go all Dragon on your A%$!"

 

Thats manipulation through fear, but that counts for nothing.

 

Cadsuane is the most powerful Aes Sedai in memory (before the wonder girls) and what she lacks in power to them she MORE then makes up for in experience she has gained in her some 700 years! Anyone remember what lesson she says she has to teach Rand if he has any hope of winning TG? She says she has to teach him to laugh again!

 

She's doing that the way she thinks needs to be done, and if you ask me is one of Rand's best supporters. Besides she's a green (the battle Ajah) so i'd expect her there at TG laying waste to some DF's!

 

PS. Honestly i'm glad Cadsuane is going midevil on Rand when he doesn't mind his manners, after a zillion books of Rand i was getting annoyed.!

[Meliane]

I think in the fight Rand vs. Cadsuane, you are discounting her ter'angreal. How often are we given hints about what they do? On one occasion with Alanna, there is a strong implication that she has one to protect her from saidar. When Alanna embraces the Source, Cadsuane merely looks at her calmly over her embroidery needles. I also think she has one to protect against saidin. If none of the books came out and said that, there is at least the implication, especially at the fight during the Cleansing. I believe she has no need to fear Rand, unless Rand picks up something with Air and hurls it at her. And she could use saidar to stop objects that were flung at her. So unless Rand had a saidar-stopping ter'angreal, she'd kick his butt with the One Power. We've seen her threaten to spank him, and I don't think he could stop her.

 

I really like Cadsuane. It is about her strength of character and her no-nonsense attitude. Rand acts like a spoiled child and someone needs to put an end to it. The strongest rulers, whether King, Queen, or Dragon Reborn, need to be taken down a rung or eight on the ladder sometimes. Think Morgase and Lini. Elayne and Birgitte. The Seanchan even have Truthspeakers who verbally abuse them and beat them out of necessity sometimes. Why is this Cadsuane any worse?

 

Cadsuane is there to remind Rand that he is still a person, despite whatever else he may have to be.

[DaShain]

I think in the fight Rand vs. Cadsuane' date=' you are discounting her [i']ter'angreal[/i]. How often are we given hints about what they do? On one occasion with Alanna, there is a strong implication that she has one to protect her from saidar. When Alanna embraces the Source, Cadsuane merely looks at her calmly over her embroidery needles. I also think she has one to protect against saidin. If none of the books came out and said that, there is at least the implication, especially at the fight during the Cleansing. I believe she has no need to fear Rand, unless Rand picks up something with Air and hurls it at her. And she could use saidar to stop objects that were flung at her. So unless Rand had a saidar-stopping ter'angreal, she'd kick his butt with the One Power. We've seen her threaten to spank him, and I don't think he could stop her.

Even assuming she does have a saidin blocking ter'angreal (which she doesn't; she has a ter'angreal that interferes with certain weaves of saidar, and there is no evidence that it does the same for men), the power differential is so large that it wouldn't matter. Rand could Lightning her, Blossom of Fire her, pick up a building and toss it at her, etc. There's simply no way she can match him strength for strength if it came down to it. He's one of the two most powerful channelers ever to exist; she's the most powerful of a few generations of Aes Sedai who are almost uniformly negligible on the Power scale. The ter'angreal wouldn't provide nearly enough help.