[Basic] Die Hard for Mafia Game Thread

[Kaylee]

OK, absolutely no chance I can read up.

 

Let's get this over with.

 

unvote vote Lenlo

 

@Kaylee - yes I think Luci is more likely to be scum than Lenlo.

@Kaylee - yes, there's a doc in the game and I'm it

What was this about?

[Kaylee]

I understand the statement about Luci, but the other part?

[Kaylee]

I'm going to bed but in the morning I'll post my thoughts.

[Pralaya]

Well, this is going to run close. Csarmi, I believe is the doc, no doubt about. There is no counter claim so far.

 

Among the others, all 3 of us - me, Kaylee and Mish voted Andrej quite early. Clearly, he was bused 

 

 

 

Final Vote Count:

 

Mish(3): Csarmi, Lenlo

Andrej(4): Pral, Darthe, Kaylee, Mish, Luci, Peace

Peace(1): Andrej

 

Not Voting: Dap

 

 

However, Dice/Mish was absent in the lynch of NotBob. I am presuming this is because Dice went inactive and was not available to vote. 

 

I have made my case on Kaylee earlier and it mainly centers on the Andrej/Kaylee argument in Day 2, which feels like it was a deliberate attempt at distancing. That Andrej was pursuing Kaylee even after getting lynched was weird. Also, on Day 1 - NotBob lynch, both Andrej and Kaylee vote him one after the other close to deadline, mostly after realizing there was no alternative as the deadline was close.

 

Regarding Mish, she has been changing her list of suspects every day based on where the interest is. She made a case about me and was coming down hard on me. Then the next couple of days I was out of her radar and she was focusing on Dap/Lenlo. I guess she will be back on me today.

 

Between the two, Kaylee is the one I feel is more scummy. Anyway, will vote based on the discussion that follows. No need to hurry up with votes.

[michellem]

Really? Based on those small cases, I'd say I come out the worst. But I guess it's easier to roll with the groundwork others have laid down over the past few days that Kaylee is the GF.

 

And of course Andrej was bussed... It was clear he was going down, he was dropping scumtells all over the place; might as well try to take the town cred that's at hand, right? I think

 

I've said before, I know I have a tendency of picking up on things and tunneling on a player, that others don't see. A lot of the time, it leads to me distracting myself from being able to read others, so when no-one else seemed to pick up on my case on you, I figured I'd let you lie for a while and see what happened. I knew we had the numbers to be able to afford a mislynch or two. I haven't gotten a scumvibe from Kaylee, and I can't see a basic game without a doc, so that clears Csarmi. That leaves you.

 

Now I'm gonna go back and reread to make sure I haven't missed anything from Kaylee or Csarmi, but in the meantime I feel very comfortable placing a vote on Pral.

 

Vote Pral

[csarmi]

Current gut theory:

 

Pral's scum and GF.

He acted more controversial than usualy from him on D1 to get viewed. He failed. He almost got lynched, actually.

Now he couldn't claim a town PR, could he? Cause that wouldn't be healthy for a GF - that's assured cc and death at some point.

Afterwards, they went for the big price and he bussed the hell out of his teammates.

 

What doesn't fit - why start a train on AJ at all? Mish/Dice would have went down that day without interference.

 

---------------

 

Now this is just a theory and I will check if it fits. But certainly not today. I feel like a zombie, completely brain dead and drained today and loaded with work.

 

Gonna try and read up tomorrow or so. I encourage everyone to come up with theories.

[Kaylee]

I'll come up with my theories after work. I want to think about some things and look over some stuff.

[Pralaya]

I've said before, I know I have a tendency of picking up on things and tunneling on a player, that others don't see. A lot of the time, it leads to me distracting myself from being able to read others, so when no-one else seemed to pick up on my case on you, I figured I'd let you lie for a while and see what happened. I knew we had the numbers to be able to afford a mislynch or two. I haven't gotten a scumvibe from Kaylee, and I can't see a basic game without a doc, so that clears Csarmi. That leaves you.

 

 

In which case,  you have been absolutely wrong this game. Whether by intuition or assumption, if you are thinking I am scum, you are going to mislynch again. 

 

Kaylee's case I have already given 2-3 days back and it was a detailed case. That was immediately after the flip of Andrej, when it was more or less clear that we have a GF. What I gave now is just a summary of it 

[michellem]

Current gut theory:

 

Pral's scum and GF.

He acted more controversial than usualy from him on D1 to get viewed. He failed. He almost got lynched, actually.

Now he couldn't claim a town PR, could he? Cause that wouldn't be healthy for a GF - that's assured cc and death at some point.

Afterwards, they went for the big price and he bussed the hell out of his teammates.

 

What doesn't fit - why start a train on AJ at all? Mish/Dice would have went down that day without interference.

 

---------------

 

Now this is just a theory and I will check if it fits. But certainly not today. I feel like a zombie, completely brain dead and drained today and loaded with work.

 

Gonna try and read up tomorrow or so. I encourage everyone to come up with theories.

 

Bolded Green: Because a game not very long ago, where Pral and I was mafia together, I did that on D2 on our third mafia member, and ended up winning us the game on it; nobody suspected me at all after that. Pral even mentioned it earlier in the game. I don't remember if you were in that game.

[Kaylee]

Ok home now and thoughts are below:

 

I'm having a real hard time to be honest because I can see points/reasons for each of you to be guilty. The only one I trust right now is myself.

 

Mish: seems to be playing a town game. Dice was hard to read as he wasn't active enough. I don't really trust her though for her reasons above. I played in that game with her and she did escape suspicion by bussing early and making good cases. 

 

Pral: I mostly don't trust him for the same reasons as Mish. Csarmi also pointed out that Pral being scum seems strange as he bussed AJ by starting the train and making the case against him early. It's entirely possible and being GF would be an excellent reason to claim VT. 

 

That leaves Csarmi. He's unCC'd Doc I know. But I got to thinking. It's a crazy idea and not as likely but since I'm putting all my thoughts down here it goes...

We know we had a cop and vig due to corner reports. Scum would have to have some way of countering that. GF makes sense as it's common in basic games. Would adding a doc to the mix over power the townies? I know the vig was 1-shot but still you have to account for everything to happen at once as a mod. The more I thought about it I began to wonder if there is a doc this game. If for some reason there isn't Csarmi could be scum in that case and of course he'd be unCC'd. Now after I post this I'll grab the two final vote counts to see how they look for everyone.

 

 

I know you're unCC'd Doc but I wanted to point some things out...

 

I'm gonna be voting Luci tomorrow. That hammer stinks.

Also, I disagreed about the Dap lynch then and I disagree about it now. Since when is it a good idea to lynch a town view when we have 7 town / 1 scum left most likely?

Bad play.

Bold: you state your intentions to vote Luci next day phase...

Blue: This is interesting as you seemed so sure that I was the GF a few pages back. (I pulled that posts too).

 

 

Feel like sharing your innocent view?

Agreed on people relying on the cop too much.

This post just seems odd. You ask for the view, which I understand, and yet also state that people rely too much on the cop? Huh? 

 

 

 

Pray that seems counter intuitive
Atleast she's had a cop view

As we can be almost sure that the remaining scan is gf...

 

Most likely or it could be a true townie viewing.

 

 

If there is a GF, they can be anyone but Peace/Me, actually, and we're never going to get any new info on that as we know it's the last one standing.

Kaylee, I think.

Here it is...the statement where you say you think I'm GF if there is one.

 

Something else stood out to me about the cop view comment...let me go back and see if I can find it.

Here are some things I pointed out earlier. If you read the quotes and my responses you'll see that they are just strange really. Especially the part about the cop view...tells me not to worry about it but then asks Peace. (If you're the doc and want to see scum hunting why ask about the results?)

 

 

 

 

Peace either way knowing your target can be helpful. I'm still going to look at the unknown. Dap should've been on that list too. I didn't realize I missed him.

Peace knows his job.
Let's focus on scumhunting and run people up. I'm sure he'll stop the wrong train, if need be.

 

Here it is. I put it in purple so it really stands out. I ask Peace about his findings...in the same post I say I'm going to still look at the remaining players.

Yet you seem to be saying to focus on scumhunting (as I've stated I planned to do), and not worry about Peace's findings. Then later on you ask about them?

 

Here is the quote where he had told me not to worry about what Peace found out....then the above where he asks about it himself.

 

 

Well, unless two of you might switch to Luci, I might as well hammer Len.

Gonna wait some, though.

Here he just isn't paying attention. (Which is funny as a few posts before this I called Leno out for not paying attention). Of course it could be nothing as if he's scum why would it matter which townie was lynched? (This mostly goes against my theory, but it stood out so I added it).

 

 

Current gut theory:

Pral's scum and GF.
He acted more controversial than usualy from him on D1 to get viewed. He failed. He almost got lynched, actually.
Now he couldn't claim a town PR, could he? Cause that wouldn't be healthy for a GF - that's assured cc and death at some point.
Afterwards, they went for the big price and he bussed the hell out of his teammates.

What doesn't fit - why start a train on AJ at all? Mish/Dice would have went down that day without interference.

---------------

Now this is just a theory and I will check if it fits. But certainly not today. I feel like a zombie, completely brain dead and drained today and loaded with work.

Gonna try and read up tomorrow or so. I encourage everyone to come up with theories.

Makes some good points about Pral and why he could be either town or scum. (I feel the same so that's kind of a null thing for me). 

 

He encourages everyone to come up with theories. Ok, I did and I'm voicing them.  

[Kaylee]

Also, we need to be careful as this is the last day phase. With only 1 remaining scum we miss lynch that puts us at 3 players. If the NK goes through then next day we're down to 2 and there's no way for town to win at that point so it'd be a scum victory.

[Kaylee]

Yeah cause I was about to say and FBI agent isn't exatly what I see as a basic game role; I hdn't even heard of it before researching roles for one of my own games yesterday!

Also this stood out to me. We found out we were wrong about Leno and lost another townie and Mish is only concerned about his possibly having been roled? If he had a role I think he would have claimed when he was being run up.

[Kaylee]

 

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT: (At time of hammer)

 

Pralaya(1): Dice

Cloud(1): Pral

NotBob(7): Peace, Csarmi, Dap,  Darthe, Andrej, Kaylee, Lenlo

Lenlo(1): NotBob

Peace(1): Cloud

 

Not Voting: Luci

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

 

 

 

Final Vote Count:

 

Mish(2): Csarmi, Lenlo

Andrej(6): Pral, Darthe, Kaylee, Mish, Luci, Peace

Peace(1): Andrej

 

Not Voting: Dap

Len and I look the worst in that

I reccomend trains on us two tomorrow

 

I took the liberty of coloring the now dead townies in blue to keep the same town coloring Dap had added.

 

Both Pral and Dice were not on the NotBob train. Csarmi was 2nd and I was towards the end. 

 

Pral Mish and I were all on AJ's train. Pral was 1st, me 3rd and Mish 4th. I know I'm town. (I left the green coloring on my name as that was the way Dap had it.) For either The only player on both trains was me. I know that doesn't look good for myself but that's how it happened. Pral started AJ's train. Could be to buss a teammate. Would he have needed to at this point though? Was AJ under suspicion from anyone else at this point? I honestly don't know and would have to go back to look at that. (Yes I will do that shortly). If Mish was scum this would be an excellent place to gain town cred as Dice was getting a lot of heat before this point.

 

As for Csarmi if he is scum he didn't need to be on AJ's train as he wasn't under suspicion at this point. (I don't think he had revealed yet. I may be wrong on that.) If he is scum then the reveal of the role is enough town cred in itself.

 

As far as the trains go I think it makes more sense for Mish to be scum. I could easily see Pral being scum though and on a smaller scale, Csarmi if there is not really a doc.

 

I know I'm not helping much here. I'm going back now to look to see if AJ was under any pressure or suspicion at the time of Pral's case.

[Kaylee]

I believe it was Pral that mentioned AJ trying to "distance" from me even after his death. Why would he do that? To put suspicion on me and drag a townie down with him.

[Kaylee]

First Peace mentions AJ...quesitoning why he's suspicious of me:

ok..let's try this.  Why does her over explanation make her likely scum?

 

 

Because it allows for wiggle room. By presenting both sides of a potential argument she doesn't have to commit to either side necessarily.

 

Her comments about Pral's train and his lack of getting hammered after being L-1 twice stuck out to me, specifically.

His reply.

 

 

I'm the doc and I did self-protect.

Here is where Csarmi claims. (The timing seems odd. This was after the vig claim. It could very well be that he was hoping to gain town cred and draw out the real Doc. Mafia could've killed Cloud to set this up. Kind of elaborate so I'm not sure. He could really be doc...I'm just exploring all possibilities here.)

 

 

A couple of things:

1) I suck at maffia. It's official. You can quote me on that.

Why?

Cause I try to act my best town (feeling that it would still look scummy enough to avoid maffia NK) in the greek game, only to get vigged as a Cop.
So now I draw Doc and I got this nice plan on being scummy enough so that either a)I'm just viewed as a non-threat and I can protect whoever I want to or b)I get run up and have to claim and play wine. What happen is that people get town read on me? Least I managed to guess I'm a likely NK target. Go figure.

2) I'm pretty sure Darthe is 1-shot Vig. But still, on the off chance that he isn't:

3) We need to pull a good day now with enough information. Let's not be lazy now. Information that Darthe can use to base his shot on. I think he has a good enough judgment to shoot well on his own (shooting Cloud was a great call, fo3 instance), but some pressure trains would be very nice information.

4) I don't want to go into too much setup talk, but I think it's a good idea to check out the pair of this game on JN. Page 75-78 for showdown, setup and all that.

2 really stands out to me. What makes you think he's only 1x? Is it because the other game on JN? (Which would also give further credit to him as that version did have a doc).

 

 

 

 

 

She's my best lead currently.

 

Well, as I stated previously I have a town read on her.  Please explain why you don't.

 

 

I already have. I posted the start of a case before NotBob's lynch. Her over-explanation of everything along with her actions in regards to the leading trains yesterday make me suspicious.

 

I took what you said about her meta into account, but my gut tells me otherwise.

 

Bold: to which I quoted and commented on. No reply to it? Because you know you have nothing real on me.

 

 

Lenlo...why are you voting Dice?

This also has me curious. As I recall he hasn't posted much due to RL issues. I'm curious why you just seem to follow without any comment of your own.

 

This I quoted to show where I was suspicious of AJ. He had no votes on him until Pral's case. I was weary of him after his back and forth with Peace. Him ignoring my rebuttal to his case made me think he might be scum and wasn't expecting me to respond to it.

 

 

I really wish Dice and Luci posted more. I don't have much of a read on them except that Dice tends to pull RL as maffia. I don't have enough on Len either.

Kaylee and Andrej gave some fresh ping to me. AJ just looks too pro-town. Kaylee seems to be on her scum meta for me. I really have to check her town play though.

All in all, this re-read I did now just wasn't a success. I guess I'm not focusing on the right rhings. NotBob & Cloud interactions should be analyzed.
I can't remember why I had a town read on Dap. Maybe we could convince Dap to do some cases? That'd get two birds with one stone.

Basically reasons why he doesn't trust Dice & Luci (not around enough) and AJ and I. (This could be him linking AJ and I to make me look suspicious).

 

 

 

Quoted this to make it easier to see. I put my notes on them.

 

1. Peace- leaning town

2. Luci (Being mentored by Ishy)

3. Andrej (Replaced Quibby)

4. Darthe- Claimed Vig (I believe it)

5. Kaylee

6. Pralaya- Claimed VT (not sure if I believe)

7. Dice

8. Not Bob - Theo - Mafia Goon - Lynched D1

9. Cloud- VT NK N1

10. Csarmi-Claimed Doc (I also believe)

11. Lenlo

12. Dap

 

Backups:

Nynaeve

 

 

 

 

Pral has been defeated it seems. Kind of surprised he latched so strongly onto Lenlo for his reasons. Could go either way on his VT claim. I think it's bad form to give someone the benefit of the doubt just because of the phase and his claim that everything must be absolute. I would probably have done the same in his shoes if I were scum.

 

Well, not exactly defeated but at a point where whatever I say could go against me (and the timezone too, yeah, just woke up). I am still in the opinion that Lenlo and Cloud are scum in this game. Lenlo has disappeared and Cloud's explanations have not convinced me. I have a feeling that most of those active right now are town and the scum have settled in the background watching the show unfold. 

 

 

The fact that he wasn't hammered means he's town and scum were already on his train (not saying all of them), or he's scum and they're stalling the lynch. I'm not sure which yet.

 

Kaylee, you used the exact same logic in the game where me and Mish were mafia. And, we used it to our advantage. Because of it you started believing that Mish was town and you know how that went. The thing is scum will not hammer me or anyone till last minute because if they do it brings attention on them and they wouldn't risk it. Yes, I am sure there are scum already on my train (and you know who I am suspicious of) - that goes without saying.

 

Bold: I remember quite well, it's part of why I don't trust you honestly.

Blue: I don't agree. Waiting to hammer a teammate can make them suspects as it looks like they were trying to delay the train.

Orange: I'm also curious why you brought this up. Seems like buddying to me or trying to make yourself seem more likely town.

 

Also, are you planning to expand your post? Because you aren't seem to be saying much so far.

I'm not sure what else you're wanting me to say here. I've given reads on Dice (not much to go on so null...adding it here because it was in a post awhile back), Luci (null because having a seasoned mentor it makes it harder for me to get a read so far), Pral- see above, Peace, Darthe and you. That only leaves AJ Dap and Lenlo. 

 

I don't have a good read on everyone as of yet. As for AJ I will say that I am curious why he hasn't commented on the post I made addressing his case against me. I even mentioned it later and he ignored that as well.

 

I realize that leaves a lot of unknown's from me which means pressure on any of them I'd be fine with. 

 

Csarmi doesn't think I've said enough here even though I commented on just about every player. (I know it wasn't elaborate, but I did comment on as much as I could). Why single me out? Because AJ was going after me and it looks like I'm not being as active as I should be. (That plays into my scum meta).

 

 

 

Official Vote Count:

 

 

 

Dice(4): Peace, Csarmi, Lenlo, Andrej

 

 

 

Not Voting: Luci, Darthe, Kaylee, Pral, Dice, Dap

 

 

 

Deadline for Day 2 is set for Tuesday, Sept. 24 at 7pm PST.  With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

 

Posted this to show it was Dice/Mish that was going down. Now if Pral is scum why divert attention away from Dice's lynch? That would only make sense if Mish, Pral and AJ were on a team together. Makes little sense at all really. 

 

 

Out of the people who have not claimed
 
Peace, Luci, Andrej, Kaylee, Dice, lenlo and Dap
 
So, 2 out of these are scum. 
 
The replacement tactic is kind of far fetched for this game. Dice has been having RL problems, I think - has come up in other games too. 
 
Anyway, just went back and was reading and I came across this. This was kind of close to deadline, so I did not observe it then but looking back this stands out. Andrej's vote came quite late when it was sure NotBob is going to get lynched. Especially obvious is how he is linking up NotBob to others as if KNOWING he will flip scum.

 

Nowhere in this post he says why he thinks NotBob is scum. All he does is links people to NotBob and votes him as if he is almost out of time.

  

So, we've got Cloud discrediting Pral further while voting for Peace. (Peace never said he'd believe any role on D1, just that he believed Pral's, btw. That's an important detail that you're misrepresenting here.)

 

At this point, these are the associations that I see.

 

Cloud and Kaylee are against NotBob's train. Cloud through his interference by going after Peace and now arguing with Dap. Kaylee more subtle with first the unvote that gained some attention and then revoting Pral to even out the trains.

 

Peace wants to lynch NotBob over Pral on the basis that he believes Pral's VT claim. Why NotBob, Peace? I don't remember you actually making a case on him before.

 

vote NotBob

 

At this point, with NotBob having the most votes and this close to DL, I think he should be our lynch. If he flips scum then I think Cloud and/or Kaylee are his teammates.

 

 

vote Andrej

Bold: We know Peace, Luci, Dap and Lenlo are all town. In his list that leaves myself, Mish and AJ. He is correct, if he's not scum himself, that there are 2 scum there. 1 was AJ, the other possibly Mish. 

[Kaylee]

After looking over the above it makes me think Pral is less likely scum. That leaves Mish and Csarmi. I'm not rushing to vote since it takes so few to lynch. Look it over and please give me thoughts.

 

I know you think I'm more likely scum after looking at the trains and my crazy theory. Just think if I'm right. If I'm not then I think that Mish would have to be the remaining scum.

[csarmi]

I protected Kaylee tonight

 

I found the The Luci kill strange. I believe that the killer was trying to ensure that their kill went through, that's why they picked Luci whom I was unlikely to protect.

I believe that there's still some 36+ hours left from the day? I don't think I'll be able to add my thoughts today.

 

@Kaylee, attacking the doc? Seriously?

Anyway:

 

 

OK, absolutely no chance I can read up.

 

Let's get this over with.

 

unvote vote Lenlo

 

@Kaylee - yes I think Luci is more likely to be scum than Lenlo.

@Kaylee - yes, there's a doc in the game and I'm it

 

So you don't understand the part about the doc? Earlier, you hinted you had a grand theory. I was sure what it would be about (me not being Doc) so I reflected on it.

 

Anyway, tx for posting your thoughts.

 

 

 

 

[csarmi]

Oh yea I protected Kaylee cause I got a town read on her yesterday (posted the reasons back then).

The idea was that scum would want her dead because she's not a possible lynch if I read him town (takes everyone for the lynch today).

[csarmi]

Also @Kaylee:

 

Sorry I won't unscramble your quotes. You asked why I wanted everyone posting their theories. That's because we need to find the scum.

I get to ask things like this (or do things like traps at nights and mornings (see last days)) because I'm practically confirmed town and you folks can trust I got the town's best interests in mind.

 

If you need to convince yourself that I'm town, ask yourself this question: why would I ever want to stand out and do any plays as scum in the last few days? Assuming there was no doc in the game, I'd have had a safe homerun with this game: Just do whatever, kill Peace and make sure that there's a lynch every day.

[csarmi]

After looking over the above it makes me think Pral is less likely scum. That leaves Mish and Csarmi. I'm not rushing to vote since it takes so few to lynch. Look it over and please give me thoughts.

 

I know you think I'm more likely scum after looking at the trains and my crazy theory. Just think if I'm right. If I'm not then I think that Mish would have to be the remaining scum.

The bold is scummy and untrue. It does NOT take a few to lynch. It takes every single (other) player to lynch anyone. I'll make it easier for you:

 

unvote

 

Now I would like to ask everyone to add their thoughts AND their votes. As long as you trust me to be town, you can do so without fear of anyone getting hammered. So that's all excuse removed.

 

Why do you have to vote?

Because by not doing so, you help the maffia. Maffia members would want to get someone (but them) lynched. That's easier to do if people aren't backing up their mouth with their votes.

[michellem]

 

Yeah cause I was about to say and FBI agent isn't exatly what I see as a basic game role; I hdn't even heard of it before researching roles for one of my own games yesterday!

Also this stood out to me. We found out we were wrong about Leno and lost another townie and Mish is only concerned about his possibly having been roled? If he had a role I think he would have claimed when he was being run up.

 

 

I've mostly skimmed this page because it's 8 in the morning and I've slept like 3 hours; I'll be back around noon more awake and respond to more things then.

 

But yes, I wanted to know if that was his role or not; because according to mafia wiki, the FBI agent is a cop specifically made for finding SKs. I thought it highly unlikely, considering this is a basic game, but I wanted to double check, in case that did indeed mean we had an SK.

 

Also, I really don't see a basic game without a doc. It would be an extremely risky fake-claim; the chance for a CC is 99%.

[Kaylee]

Well I'm feeling, with his responses, that Csarmi is Doc. I think with the reasons I laid out last night that Mish is more likely scum than Pral.

 

Vote Mish

[Kaylee]

 

After looking over the above it makes me think Pral is less likely scum. That leaves Mish and Csarmi. I'm not rushing to vote since it takes so few to lynch. Look it over and please give me thoughts.

 

I know you think I'm more likely scum after looking at the trains and my crazy theory. Just think if I'm right. If I'm not then I think that Mish would have to be the remaining scum.

The bold is scummy and untrue. It does NOT take a few to lynch. It takes every single (other) player to lynch anyone. I'll make it easier for you:

 

unvote

 

Now I would like to ask everyone to add their thoughts AND their votes. As long as you trust me to be town, you can do so without fear of anyone getting hammered. So that's all excuse removed.

 

Why do you have to vote?

Because by not doing so, you help the maffia. Maffia members would want to get someone (but them) lynched. That's easier to do if people aren't backing up their mouth with their votes.

I had added thoughts on everyone still alive already. Going with trusting you I placed my vote with who I suspect most.

[Pralaya]

Frankly, I am kind of lost between Kaylee and Mish. 

Both of them have felt scummy at places.

 

I had a town read on Mish. Kaylee's latest posts and her case on Mish seem genuine 

 

When is the deadline? Need to go back and reread Mish/Dice. 

[csarmi]

Some 30+ hours I think?