A Possible Talent?

[emilyisme]

This is the scene from TPoD where she creates the gateway that gives her problems. I don't remember a more thorough description given in any other scene of hers. It seems like she's having problems because she's trying to remember how she did it before, instead of working with the weaves she was given, but it's a pretty vague snippet.

 

I understood that this was a problem that always happens with the OP. If you learn a weave one way (say as a childhood trick) it is always much more difficult for you to make the weave again using a different method (or without using your hands, or whatever). This is why Avi has so much trouble with gateways, it's a slightly different weave to here instinctive one.

 

In general, I consider things like Travelling and Healing to not be proper Talents as they're just weaves, whereas things like Dreamwalking, Foretelling , seeing ta'veren and such which are not so mush related to the OP as Talents. I do remember that AS talk about Healing being a Talent, but I feel it's likely that they have their terms mixed up because they're too focussed on the OP as the only possible source of "supernatural" powers.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Luckers, we are always at loggerheads, you and I.

 

re: Moiraine-- I had to look back at the original post to try to figure out WTF you were trying to say. It seemed like you were making contradictory points. We thought you were claiming that Moiraine had the Talent of reading *angreal. But you were saying that you thought she had the ability to sense things about objects from touching them. So, yeah, I was skimming and missed what you actually had said. NM.

 

The chapter you point out, reads thus:

 

Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory... She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean.

 

She didn't relate any impressions or feelings from it, so I don't know where you're drawing "The angreal wielded by Lanfear felt of pain and anguish to her". She just notes that she didn't like it. And what with it being an angreal in the hands of one of the Forsaken, tied to a recurring dream/vision when you knew your "death" was imminent, I wouldn't like it either. But you have to infer into that scene to make it seem that she was sensing pain and/or evil from it, as Nynaeve had from the rod ter'angreal.

 

No, I don't think Nynaeve has the Talent, as I believe I just said. But it is a possibility. Based on the fact that she hasn't really had any other extraordinary reactions to *angreal at first touch, I think it's a pretty slim possibility.

 

Regarding Elayne, I continue to disagree with you about her not having this Talent at all. I still say she does have it, though probably not as strong as Aviendha nor in the same way, and it appears more towards the "sensing how to activate" than knowing what it's for. She sensed how to stir and activate the Bowl of the Winds in LoC and guessed it's use. You say "her mishap with the ter'angreal in tPoD shows that". Which mishap? I assume you're referring to the red rod ter'angreal that made her pass out and then wake up after having done... something embarrassing. Well, she also sensed how to activate that ter'angreal in the first place. I think her ability to sense how to activate the *angreal is related to (cause/effect) her Talent in re-creating and making them.

 

 

emilyisme, you're almost certainly correct there.

[Luckers]

I'll concede Moiraine. It's been a while since i read that passage.

 

But not Elayne. In that chapter in PoD we see her directly inspecting an ter'angreal. She gains no especial intuitive understanding of them. No insight into how they work. Nothing remotely comprable to Aviendha's actions.

 

And the Bowl of the Winds is the same, she channels at it, and see moving clowds, and given the nature of her need in tel'aran'rhiod guesses that the bowl could be used to correct the weather... not an especially great jump of logic. She does not however gain any insight into how it works.

 

Her knowledge of ter'angreal comes from examination and study, and even then is flawed. Her ability to make ter'angreal is a talent, but a seperate one, and one Aviendha does not share. Aviendha's Talent is an intuitive understanding of the purpose of ter'angreal, and how they work.

 

Nynaeve's is again different. She is not gaining anything from the objects she touches, but rather the feelings of those who wielded or were affected by them. Again a seperate Talent.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Stalemate.

[dimmu666]

wowza yeah it really is confusing between weaves and talents. but can someone help me out for a sec, i'm totally confused about this. You know how avi did this thing to a gateway how she unraveled it? and it blew up? and how moridin was like "holy crap even we didn't know that could be done"? well thats certainly a talent right? and it does seem like no one else can do it right?

well i mean it definately isn't some peculiar weave cos its 'un weaving' something not weaving. Do you guys think avi is the only one that can do it?

[Luckers]

Actually that seems to be something anyone can learn with proper training. All the wise ones can do it.

[dimmu666]

really dude? bleh musta missed that. Then it is quite surprising that moridin was shocked at seeing avi do it cos i mean if heaps of ppl can do it, would've made sense that age of legends ppl could've too.

[Luckers]

The Forsaken dont know how to bond people either, and anyone can learn that.

[isleofjib]

it is elayne that unravels the weave that blows up as they are travelling from ebou dar to andor. i think egwene learned that from the wise ones and elayne watches her do it and then tries it on her own, so luckers has the right of it. and they're seem to be a few things that have been learned since the breaking. warders is another that the FS didn't know.

[isleofjib]

LOL. me and luckers posted at the same time!

[Luckers]

Aviendha unravels the gateway between Ebou Dar and the Farm, and late on Elayne attempts to do the same with the gateway between the farm and Andor because she does not wish the Seanchan damane to learn how to Travel. She fails and it explodes. Egwene does not know how to unravel webs.

[isleofjib]

Aviendha unravels the gateway between Ebou Dar and the Farm' date=' and late on Elayne attempts to do the same with the gateway between the farm and Andor because she does not wish the Seanchan damane to learn how to Travel. She fails and it explodes. Egwene does not know how to unravel webs.[/quote']

 

eh, i may well be remembering wrong. wouldn't be the first time. :)

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Judging by how dangerous the AS felt that unravelling was, and we saw when Elayne couldn't do it, it's no surprise that the AoL AS didn't exactly pursue that skill.

 

And, the AS of the AoL had no need for bodyguards (and they had the dai'shain for assistance), and given the negative effects of the Warder Bond, it's no surprise that they didn't know that either.

 

I loved Moridin's reaction to seeing Avi unravel her Gateway though. That was great.

[Luckers]

Yeah, it struck me that right after Moridin gates away he got himself hell drunk. Heh.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Yeah' date=' it struck me that right after Moridin gates away he got himself hell drunk. Heh.[/quote']

 

Ha!

 

Moridin: [swinging bottle of oosquai] These *urp* primimitives are *urp* full of surprises... primimitive... primim... pri... ish a funny word... primititive... Haha! Primitative...

 

Shaidar Haran: Uh. Yeah.

[Telzen]

Also' date=' Egwene touched one of the Choedan Kal access keys also in the Panarch's Palace in T'A'R, which caused her pain, but I believe that was just because it was broken.[/color']

 

On this point, I always thought that was the reason aswell. But when rereading book 4 the other day I noticed that Lanfear mention that she had found an access key for the choedan kal, but since it was broken she just put a weave on it to cause pain to a woman who can channel. Its funny what you notice on rereads.

[Luckers]

No, she just said that she left it as a surprise for some unwary Aes Sedai. The inherent danger of the broken key is the surprise, not anything she intentionally did.

[trevorcroft]

I don't think the definition of Talent really matters, just as long as you are accurately interpretting the books.

 

As far as the OP goes, Egwene has a knack with Earth so she we can wield Earth more effectively than most female AS, Nyneave has a knack for healing, are these Talents - who cares - all you have to know as a reader is the effect of their skills, not weather its a Talent or a talent.

 

As far as Avi's inability with gateways - any effect of the OP can be accomplished with different weaves and her first weaving of a gateway was not the same as she learned later on, the result of this is the same with all channelers - the new weave will not be as affective as the original weave. All Avi needs to do is remember the original weave and she will be able to make gateways in proportion to her strength.

 

But like anything else with the OP different people will excel at different things, some people may be really good at making gateways, others might be bad at it, so if you have a medium strengthed channeler who has a knack for gateways she may make a gateway of equal quality as a very strong channeler that has no knack for gateways.

[Fryn]

Ok couple points: Fun post btw

 

Egwene may or may not be able to tell what terangrel are, however her trip into TAR is not a good example. In TAR she channeled into the the broken link key because she could sense the one power in it much like rand did with the actual statue. If she had done this in the waking world she would likely be burnt out or dead. Later in the book Modg mentions that it would be a fun if anyone found it and tried to channel through it. Most channelers seem to be able to tell what angrel are by touch though. At the very least it isn't an uncommon trait because Rand can do it as well.

 

Edit: Didn't read the last post.

The reason why Avi can't make a gateway as large as the others is because her first use of that weave was different as pointed out above. This is the reason why the wise ones didn't want Avi learning from Moraine since they found many of the weaves she was teaching required too much physical effort.

 

A couple talents:

Being able to replicate a weave from residue. Both Rand and Avi can do this. We have seen Rand do it lots and Avi tells elayne that she can as well. Elayne tells Avi that it is very very rare that channelers can read the residue to that level (Most can sense residue).

 

I think the definition of a talent is something that isn't directly related to using a weave. Talents are also not limited to those that are channelers. For example many dreamwalkers can't channel, and likewise Min can not channel but can read the pattern. Fortelling which isnt related to channeling directly is another clear case. In some ways Mat's memories of his past lives (not those the Elfinn implanted) and perrin's wolfbrother status are talents. Talents seem to be used for attributes that aren't normal to people in Randland. However those that are mentioned as being talents in the books are classified by Aes Sedai and for the most part they are only interested in those that affect the Pattern or indirectly relate to the One Power.

[aes_sedaiwrong]

suimone said elayne failed...

no she sabotaged it in the end and took the seanchan there wiht it.

 

purposeful. useful weapon no?