Weekly Topic: Wolf Dreams

[BFG]

It's a bit of a rambling discussion this week as there are several things about the wolf dreams that interest me.

First (with the help of the wot wiki) there's the wolf dreams that Perrin has.  Most of which seem to have been satisfactorily answered, I've included the ones that seem strange to me.

tSR 28

Egwene and a woman with long white hair were staring at him in surprise while behind them the White Tower crumbled stone by stone.

 

This seems curious because almost all the other dreams reference specific events (Eg becoming Amrylin, Rand becoming Car'a'carn, Mat choosing to go to Rhuidean.  This seems more generic somehow, also Eg and Amys see Perrin, which appears to be the only time he's noticed.  Maybe it's specifically referencing the Seanchan attack, when Eg meets Perrin?.

tSR 53

Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.

 

I can't think of anything that matches this well, his hanging in Rhuidean comes closest.

 

ToM 4

 

He [Mat] was fighting against himself, a dozen different men wearing his face, all dressed in different types of clothing. Mat spun his spear, and never saw the shadowy figure creeping behind him bearing a bloody knife.

 

Again this doesn't seem to match anything in particular.  I think I've read that people have interpreted it as the gholam searching for Mat and killing others instead, but it doesn't work for me because Mat doesn't fight those other people. 

 

So in general - does anyone have any ideas about these, or questions on the others, observations..?

 

And moving on to the mechanics of the dream...

We've met three wolfbrothers. Are the dreams that Perrin has unique to him, or to wolf brothers that find the same balance?  Noam is almost completely in the wolf dream, whereas Elyas doesn't enter.  From tDR we get some interesting descriptions of what actually happens
 

Dreams tumbled through his head. Darkhounds chasing him; he never saw them, but he could hear their howling. Fades, and Gray Men. A tall, slender man flashed into them again and again, in richly embroidered coat and boots with gold fringe; most of the time he held what seemed to be a sword, shining like the sun, and laughed triumphantly. Sometimes the man sat on a throne, and kings and queens groveled before him. These felt strange, as if they were not really his dreams at all.
   Then the dreams changed, and he knew he was in the wolf dream he sought. This time he had hoped for it.
...
   As he peered at this rough land, a circle of darkness suddenly blanked out a part of the mountains; he could not have said whether the darkness was right in front of his face or halfway to the mountains, but he seemed to be seeing through it, and beyond. Mat, rattling a dice cup. His opponent stared at Mat with eyes of fire. Mat did not seem to see the man, but Perrin knew him.
   "Mat!" he shouted. "It's Ba'alzamon! Light, Mat, you're dicing with Ba'alzamon!"
   Mat made his toss, and as the dice spun, the vision faded, and the dark place was dry mountains again.
...
   A darkness formed among the clouds, a hole into somewhere else. Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne stood looking at a huge metal cage, with a raised door held on a heavy spring. They stepped in and reached up together to loose the catch. The barred door snapped down behind them. A woman with her hair all in braids laughed at them, and another woman all in white laughed at her. The hole in the sky closed, and there were only clouds.
... "The strange things I see here. Are they real?" Hopper's sending seemed slow, as if it were so simple the wolf could not understand the need to explain it, or how to. Finally, though, something came.
   What is real is not real. What is not real is real. Flesh is a dream, and dreams have flesh.

 

and this from tSR

 

 

As though thinking of the oddities triggered one of them, a patch of sky against the mountains darkened suddenly, became a window to somewhere else

 

 

 

With the exception of the dreams of Sammael at the beginning all the dreams occur within TAR (and the Sammael dreams sound like Perrin getting drawn into Samaels dream)  so I don't think Elyas could have them.  Noam may be too far in the dream world to notice or care.  Is there anything in the fact that his dreams all centre on people that he knows?  Compare this to Min who sees them about anyone.

 

This also seems different to the way that dreamers dream.  I think that Eg dreams in a place between waking and sleeping, I'm sure she'd realise if she was in TAR. So, assuming that this difference is real, why?

[Thornan]

"He [Mat] was fighting against himself, a dozen different men wearing his face, all dressed in different types of clothing. Mat spun his spear, and never saw the shadowy figure creeping behind him bearing a bloody knife."

 

 

"Fighting against himself" could be more figurative than literal. "A dozen different men wearing his face" could indicate Matt's struggle to balance his different aspects. Gambler, rogue, and all-around scoundrel. General, husband, prince of the bloody ravens. The "shadowy figure" seems like the gholam.

[BFG]

I'm wondering if it could be to do with the conflict to come with the Sanchan about Channelers. 

 

Not sure about the shadowy figure - don't think it fits the gholam, as this is after the first encounter and since then he's been looking out for it specifically.  It could be a reference to Moggy hiding in the generals tent.

[Rhienne]

 

 

"Fighting against himself" could be more figurative than literal. "A dozen different men wearing his face" could indicate Matt's struggle to balance his different aspects. Gambler, rogue, and all-around scoundrel. General, husband, prince of the bloody ravens

Or it could refer to accepting all the other men's memories that he has inherited.

 

 

 

Egwene and a woman with long white hair were staring at him in surprise while behind them the White Tower crumbled stone by stone

I think this is actually a combination of a chance encounter with Egwene and Amys in TAR with an actual prophetic dream of the Tower crumbling.  Not sure whether this refers to the Seanchan attack or the more figurative breakdown of the WT with the division of the Tower and distrust between ajahs.

 

 

 

Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.

I don't think this one is that clear, but would guess it relates to Finnland.  Maybe the nakedness indicates his vulnerability in Finnland, and being physically bound actually refers to being bound by their treaty.

 

I definitely agree that Perrin's visions are different to the prophetic dreams of a Dreamer (at least in terms of the mechanics).  I am guessing they are specific to Perrin, and possibly to do with his being ta'veren, or maybe linked to the blurred colours and visions the three ta'veren get when they think of each other, as they all seem to be when he deliberately thinks of someone.  Also, I don't think the wolves ever mention having prophetic dreams, and if it was a generic property of the wolfdream I think they would have them too.

 

Is there any difference between the wolf dream and TAR?  I ask because, if there isn't any difference, and the visions are not unique to Perrin but just a property of the wolfdream, then surely anyone in TAR would be able to see visions?

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

"Fighting against himself" could be more figurative than literal. "A dozen different men wearing his face" could indicate Matt's struggle to balance his different aspects. Gambler, rogue, and all-around scoundrel. General, husband, prince of the bloody ravens

Or it could refer to accepting all the other men's memories that he has inherited.

 

Again, not sure about the timing - but Mat seems to have accepted this by KoD (in the end battle he seems pretty comfortable with them). 

 

 

 

 

Egwene and a woman with long white hair were staring at him in surprise while behind them the White Tower crumbled stone by stone

I think this is actually a combination of a chance encounter with Egwene and Amys in TAR with an actual prophetic dream of the Tower crumbling.  Not sure whether this refers to the Seanchan attack or the more figurative breakdown of the WT with the division of the Tower and distrust between ajahs.

 

It would depend on whether or not Eg recognised Perrin as being really there or not.  She was surprised to see him at the BA battle.  But this is early on in her training (if she'd even started), having said that she identified when Rand was really there (tDR?)  Also not sure why he'd see Amys if it was either to do with the split or the Seanchan attack, she was there at the BA battle, but figuratively this helps mark the healing of the Tower.

 

Agree in principal that the bound Mat one could be related to Finnland.

 

 

Good question about the wolf dream and TAR...  Perrin interacts with dreamers without any problem.  He can also go in the flesh like Channelers.  Maybe it's a difference in the way they think about the world.  Perrin stopping balefire is an important example of the power of thought there.  But then you'd expect that when the wondergirls are learning they'd experience something similar...  Or maybe it's only Perrin that can do it.  Although when Perrin met Elyas he seemed to be relying on a sixth sense to know when to move fast and slow, maybe that's related, however indirect.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Interesting questions, I think there's something here. 

 

Wolf Dreams seem to be inherently different to Dreaming. 

 

My guess is that the purpose is the same, but the manifestation differs because of the nature of the ability. 

 

Dreaming seems like a specifically human oriented thing while the Wolf Dreams are a mixture of beast and man. 

 

I think Dreams are logical puzzle based - they employ figurative and metaphorical comparisons for the Dreamer to puzzle out, a reflection of the human mind. 

 

The Wolf Dream on the other hand I see as much more instinct-based, the visions manifesting in a more natural form. I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but it seems more emotionally driven than a puzzle like Dreaming. 

 

In any case, on to the specific Wolf Dreams: 

 

Mat - I can't think of anything beside what has already been said. I agree with BFG that the unnoticed figure with a knife is not the Gholam. This is seen in Towers of Midnight. By this time, Mat is well aware of the Gholam and is specifically hunting for it. The wolf dream seems more like an unknown enemy is creeping up on him. The best fit would be Moghedien, while Mat is utilizing the full extent of his memories (the other part of the prophecy) to battle Demandred she is hidden in the shadows. It could also refer to the Grey Man/Sharan attack on the camp - but that seems more like a full out assault rather than a sneaking attack. It might even refer to Mat's blunder in the ToG - he was in a way battling against himself. His luck was not the key to escaping (the Ashandarei was). He thought he had bargined pretty well, but did not notice the Eelfinn were left out - they were certainly creeping up on him.

 

Egwene/Amys: I can't recall the specifics of this one, so I'm not exactly sure. But I think Perrin actually encounters Egwene here. I seem to recall Egwene remembers meeting Perrin. She is unsure if it was really him because it was seen through the Wolf Dream window.

 

If I was going to make a guess, I would say that Perrin was originally seeing a prophecy of Egwene. However, Egwene also being in TaR interfered with the mechanics of the Wolf Dream so that half was the prophetic dream, and half  actually saw Egwene. The nature of the "Windows" and the fact that Perrin has to actually be in TaR actively to view them seems to indicate they are more strongly tied with TaR than ordinary dreaming. So if the subject of the WD is actually in TaR, the two merge.

 

As to why that's the case, I would say that it relates to the fact that Wolves reside in TaR after death. Perrin is half-wolf apparently, so without any real evidence, I'd guess that it was his wolf nature residing in TaR manifesting it's power. I'd say that it is something only a Wolfbrother/sister could do. Dreaming seems to be a human concept, I can't see wolves caring much for it. But it also needs a wolf's instinct/prescence in TaR to manifest. So the balance between human and wolf is needed for the Wolf Dream. The two other Wolfbrothers we see can be explained. Elyas doesn't go into the Wolf Dream because he fears it, so he doesn't really have the chance. (He may have had some, but he definitely refuses to talk about it). Noam is no longer human. He chose the Wolf and was completely taken over. In keeping with my logic, that would mean he wouldn't have WD because his human side is gone.