The Androl Thread

[Tsukibana]

A BS note:

I actually LOOKED for other works of his after I read tGS. I thought he did an excellent job, but let's be honest:

was like asking Dean Koontz to finish a Stephen King novel (pre-The Dark Tower; haven't read a Stephen King book

since that flaming, ash-covered puss-wart of an ending).

 

New thought: BS is now my favorite writer BECAUSE he didn't end tWoT with a loop-scene (which I was partially expecting).

[Vardar]

 

A couple of posters have alluded to this already, but gateways are so powerful as to be nearly game-breaking. The trick with the lava was great, but then you're wondering why you never see it again.  The trick with viewing the battlefield from on high was great, but then you should wonder what you could drop through that gateway.  I mean, who needs dragons if you could drop those explosives from a gateway?  Then there's the edges of a gateway, which are infinitely sharp.  Why didn't anyone try and open a gateway that would have cut somebody in half?  Androl demonstrated he could create micro-gateways - what if he had created a gateway an inch high and a mile wide as the Trolloc hordes ran straight into it? Forget balefire - gateways are the real danger, and a problem Sanderson had to dodge as he wrote up the Last Battle.  He threw a couple of Portal-inspired bits like directing Dragon fire through gateways, but otherwise had to pretend like they didn't exist.  It's nice for BS that he got to create his own little avatar, but with a little thought, Androl could have been the most powerful weapon on the battlefield.

A gateway is a weave on both ends, and can be seen pretty quickly. The quick, catch-all answer would be "if they tried that, enemy channelers would simply chop the weave". I think we see Demandred do that to some gateway weave.Of course, that doesn't really answer all the questions, but it's better.

 

To my knowledge we've never seen someone stop a gateway from the other side. We see people jump out the way. And it's pretty instant. How do counter weaves work.

[Richmond]

 

 

A couple of posters have alluded to this already, but gateways are so powerful as to be nearly game-breaking. The trick with the lava was great, but then you're wondering why you never see it again.  The trick with viewing the battlefield from on high was great, but then you should wonder what you could drop through that gateway.  I mean, who needs dragons if you could drop those explosives from a gateway?  Then there's the edges of a gateway, which are infinitely sharp.  Why didn't anyone try and open a gateway that would have cut somebody in half?  Androl demonstrated he could create micro-gateways - what if he had created a gateway an inch high and a mile wide as the Trolloc hordes ran straight into it? Forget balefire - gateways are the real danger, and a problem Sanderson had to dodge as he wrote up the Last Battle.  He threw a couple of Portal-inspired bits like directing Dragon fire through gateways, but otherwise had to pretend like they didn't exist.  It's nice for BS that he got to create his own little avatar, but with a little thought, Androl could have been the most powerful weapon on the battlefield.

A gateway is a weave on both ends, and can be seen pretty quickly. The quick, catch-all answer would be "if they tried that, enemy channelers would simply chop the weave". I think we see Demandred do that to some gateway weave.Of course, that doesn't really answer all the questions, but it's better.

 

To my knowledge we've never seen someone stop a gateway from the other side. We see people jump out the way. And it's pretty instant. How do counter weaves work.

Yeah I think the concern with the gateways wouldn't be the weave getting preempted, but the opponent anticipating the position and sending their own weave/arrows/projectiles through it.

[Vardar]

 

 

 

A couple of posters have alluded to this already, but gateways are so powerful as to be nearly game-breaking. The trick with the lava was great, but then you're wondering why you never see it again.  The trick with viewing the battlefield from on high was great, but then you should wonder what you could drop through that gateway.  I mean, who needs dragons if you could drop those explosives from a gateway?  Then there's the edges of a gateway, which are infinitely sharp.  Why didn't anyone try and open a gateway that would have cut somebody in half?  Androl demonstrated he could create micro-gateways - what if he had created a gateway an inch high and a mile wide as the Trolloc hordes ran straight into it? Forget balefire - gateways are the real danger, and a problem Sanderson had to dodge as he wrote up the Last Battle.  He threw a couple of Portal-inspired bits like directing Dragon fire through gateways, but otherwise had to pretend like they didn't exist.  It's nice for BS that he got to create his own little avatar, but with a little thought, Androl could have been the most powerful weapon on the battlefield.

A gateway is a weave on both ends, and can be seen pretty quickly. The quick, catch-all answer would be "if they tried that, enemy channelers would simply chop the weave". I think we see Demandred do that to some gateway weave.Of course, that doesn't really answer all the questions, but it's better.

 

To my knowledge we've never seen someone stop a gateway from the other side. We see people jump out the way. And it's pretty instant. How do counter weaves work.

Yeah I think the concern with the gateways wouldn't be the weave getting preempted, but the opponent anticipating the position and sending their own weave/arrows/projectiles through it.

 

 

Yea but what's to stop you from sending a small gateway to slice Demandred's head in half while he's shouting and balefireing people?

[Luckers]

Jordan did say there were many ways to protect against gateways. Dreamspikes (which are almost certainly Brandon's innovation) though canon, would still just be one of them. Whose to say what Demandred employed to protect himself.

 

I found Androl a bit strange. On the one hand I was a little annoyed that Brandon spent so much time developing his character (for those unaware, Brandon was given a character of his own to build and develop and that was Androl), whilst leaving so many existing characters to wallow, revert or disapear. But this does tie into my deeper dislike of the replacement of secondary characters by new characters, and may be tainted by that.

 

The bonding was disgusting and creepy--the love arc kind of nice, though I hated the way Pevara was dumbed down. Meh to Androl's history, I simply don't care, and it felt more contrived to be a question and mystery for the fans than a genuine character background.

[Charred Knight]

Jordan did say there were many ways to protect against gateways. Dreamspikes (which are almost certainly Brandon's innovation) though canon, would still just be one of them. Whose to say what Demandred employed to protect himself.

 

I found Androl a bit strange. On the one hand I was a little annoyed that Brandon spent so much time developing his character (for those unaware, Brandon was given a character of his own to build and develop and that was Androl), whilst leaving so many existing characters to wallow, revert or disapear. But this does tie into my deeper dislike of the replacement of secondary characters by new characters, and may be tainted by that.

 

The bonding was disgusting and creepy--the love arc kind of nice, though I hated the way Pevara was dumbed down. Meh to Androl's history, I simply don't care, and it felt more contrived to be a question and mystery for the fans than a genuine character background.

The problem with Androl is mainly that in a book series with a massive character count, the last portion of the Black Tower arc is entirely about him.  Jordan needed the Asha'man a bunch of stuff that needed to do and instead of the various stuff being done by the Logain faction, the Logain faction is basically written out of the story.  All but about 6 members are Turned and out of that only Androl actually does the stuff that was on the list.

[Luckers]

 

Jordan did say there were many ways to protect against gateways. Dreamspikes (which are almost certainly Brandon's innovation) though canon, would still just be one of them. Whose to say what Demandred employed to protect himself.

 

I found Androl a bit strange. On the one hand I was a little annoyed that Brandon spent so much time developing his character (for those unaware, Brandon was given a character of his own to build and develop and that was Androl), whilst leaving so many existing characters to wallow, revert or disapear. But this does tie into my deeper dislike of the replacement of secondary characters by new characters, and may be tainted by that.

 

The bonding was disgusting and creepy--the love arc kind of nice, though I hated the way Pevara was dumbed down. Meh to Androl's history, I simply don't care, and it felt more contrived to be a question and mystery for the fans than a genuine character background.

The problem with Androl is mainly that in a book series with a massive character count, the last portion of the Black Tower arc is entirely about him.  Jordan needed the Asha'man a bunch of stuff that needed to do and instead of the various stuff being done by the Logain faction, the Logain faction is basically written out of the story.  All but about 6 members are Turned and out of that only Androl actually does the stuff that was on the list.

 

 

Not just the Logain faction, Pevara and co. too--the Aes Sedai disapear with no more than an idle comment on Pevara's part that she is the last left (and no explanation as to why she is the last, how the others were taken, why Pevara didn't warn them or keep them close).

 

All so Androl could shine--and shine not through any sort of personality trait, though he probably had the most developed character personality of the last three books (though perhaps not a great one, he's literally a card board cut out of what the Aes Sedai disdain)--but through a dues ex machina like Talent aimed obviously at the Dreamspike.

[Valley of Death]

I found Androl and Pevara's connection and double bond thing some of the best/funniest moments in the book. I love the awesome stuff he did with gateways (funny that he can't create deathgates though) Androl also proves to me that BS is a good writer because he is BS's creation. Androl definitely stole some of the glory from Logain and other Asha Men which I didnt like. However, Androl was real badass and it gave Brandon at least one of his own characters.

 

P.S. Congrats on aMoL debuting #1 on NY best sellers

[Morsker]

I found Androl a bit strange. On the one hand I was a little annoyed that Brandon spent so much time developing his character (for those unaware, Brandon was given a character of his own to build and develop and that was Androl), whilst leaving so many existing characters to wallow, revert or disapear. But this does tie into my deeper dislike of the replacement of secondary characters by new characters, and may be tainted by that.

 

Let's not forget the queen of all "shows up out of nowhere, takes over the story, and obsoletes existing characters" characters. Come to think of it, Androl's Talent parallels her hair ter'angreal. Maybe it's a secret writer's trick with these instantly-important characters that they need a special power. WoT is no stranger to this kind of thing. It goes back at least to Sorilea replacing Amys.

[Charred Knight]

Not just the Logain faction, Pevara and co. too--the Aes Sedai disapear with no more than an idle comment on Pevara's part that she is the last left (and no explanation as to why she is the last, how the others were taken, why Pevara didn't warn them or keep them close).

 

All so Androl could shine--and shine not through any sort of personality trait, though he probably had the most developed character personality of the last three books (though perhaps not a great one, he's literally a card board cut out of what the Aes Sedai disdain)--but through a dues ex machina like Talent aimed obviously at the Dreamspike.

 

Which undermines the entire purpose of the bonding Asha'man and Aes Sedai together.  Why would the Reds take it as a mission to be a connection between the White and Black Towers when the Asha'man Turned over 50 aes sedai and most of them reds and led to their deaths.  By the end of the book the only confirmed survivors of the Toveine Gazal and Pervara Missions are Gabrelle and Pervara.   

[Luckers]

Mmm. I think I said this before as well, but does Androl remind anyone of the Aes Sedai character from the Legends game RJ was so disdainful of? Can barely channel, but its okay because they're armed with ter'angreal/Talent.

 

And in then end my one question remains--what the hell happened to the 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome?

[Charred Knight]

Mmm. I think I said this before as well, but does Androl remind anyone of the Aes Sedai character from the Legends game RJ was so disdainful of? Can barely channel, but its okay because they're armed with ter'angreal/Talent.

 

And in then end my one question remains--what the hell happened to the 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome?

She gets to be awesome by hanging out with Androl.  

[Bluedust9]

Mmm. I think I said this before as well, but does Androl remind anyone of the Aes Sedai character from the Legends game RJ was so disdainful of? Can barely channel, but its okay because they're armed with ter'angreal/Talent.

 

And in then end my one question remains--what the hell happened to the 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome?

 

Pevara was completely awesome in this book.

 

Edit: Also no, he reminded me nothing of the random Keeper that I played in 1999. I mean come on, you're really reaching now.

[LewsTherin10]

Anyone pick up Androl's mentioning of his family and past and someone named "Jain"?

[Celebel]

Well, I don't care that Androl is Sanderson's character. He was an answer to an issue I long had with WoT - namely, that for a channeler strength in OP is their most defining characteristic and what makes them worthy of notice/prominence/leadership. No amount of skill, specific Talent, creativity or intelligent use of OP can make up for raw strength. Basically, channelers are rated by an inborn characteristic that can't be changed.

 

Jordan ascribed this somewhat disturbing and counter-intuitive approach to the White Tower, but he really he was fully guilty of it himself. I mean:

 

Supergirls - strongest in a thousand years.

Cadsuane - strongest before them, even though her role really doesn't require her to be so and it actually would have garnered her instant respect and interest in the eyes of the readers if she wasn't and managed to become legendary despite it.

Moiraine, Siuan, Leane (yea, I know, she was a step behind) - strongest of their time in the White Tower, even though the roles of the latter 2 really didn't require it.

Aviendha - the strongest among the Aiel, IIRC.

Amys - also among the stronger ones, IIRC.

 

And the same is true of  male channelers. Why was Taim important? He was almost as strong as Rand. Ditto Logain. Flynn had his Talent, but he was also the strongest after those two. Narishma was supposed to eventually match/ surpass Flynn. Etc.

 

But Sorilea, you say. Well, she was a spiritual/political leader but then, her channeling really didn't come into it at all, being next to useless. Ditto Morgase. They really didn't need to be channelers.

 

The closest we have to somebody managing to be awesome and using OP creatively without being a power-horse is Verin, but even she was more than average in strength for an Aes Sedai.

 

Jordan did seem to recognize the problem, somewhat, and flirted with the concept of mixing it up with the Kin and their conspicious skills and Talents, as well as setting up a possibility of the White Tower, which he had dumbed down to such extreme that it was difficult to imagine it becoming functional ever, drastically improving in every way once the hierarchy of dumb, but brawny was overturned, but it never went anywhere.

 

And now, finally, thankfully Androl. Yes, it was far more satisfying to see him solve the Black Tower problem, than watch Logain and Taim duke it out with their superior OP muscles.

 

And ditto Pevara. Finally a competent, bad-ass Aes Sedai who is not a "strongest since..." and not a total iconoclast, but capable of adapting to the circumstances.

Jordan had dumbed down the White Tower so much in books 7-11 that it was rather inexplicable how it didn't crumble long ago under all the stupidity and incompetence. Well, she is the answer.

 

Relative lack of battle of the sexes and of the dubious slavery aspect that RJ inserted into Logain/Gabrelle pairing (or weirdness and lack of chemistry in Merise/Narishma one) was also most welcome and made them into a better couple to follow.

Male and female characters working together constructively and on equal footing  was something I have been waiting for for a long, long time too. Yes, there are glimpses of it with Rand and Nynaeve, but they were hardly equal...

 

So, yea, while I might have preferred to see more space and detail devoted to Moiraine (and Nynaeve) and would have been willing to forego Androl/Pevara for that, I certainly wouldn't have liked to see any of the "established" Asha'man taking on their roles. Apart from exemplifying the "OP strength is everything" problem they weren't very well characterized/interesting in the first place.

[Tsukibana]

Rand and Nyna hardly equal?? How so, sir? Where do we see her rated as such?

[orient]

Rand and Nyna hardly equal?? How so, sir? Where do we see her rated as such?

 

Well, for one thing, when during the Cleansing Nynaeve's saidar was described as being more or less dwarfed by Rand's saidin...

[Tsukibana]

"more or less" is hardly specific. While I am aware that men are stronger, usually, I was thinking more specifically of the responses that The Forsaken have to her ability. I cannot recall who, but one of them expresses incredulity at her being stronger than them. If it is Lanfear I am thinking of, then that puts her equal to LTT, or at least Demandred.

[TNine]

"more or less" is hardly specific. While I am aware that men are stronger, usually, I was thinking more specifically of the responses that The Forsaken have to her ability. I cannot recall who, but one of them expresses incredulity at her being stronger than them. If it is Lanfear I am thinking of, then that puts her equal to LTT, or at least Demandred.

That was Alivia, not Nynaeve.

[Suttree]

"more or less" is hardly specific. While I am aware that men are stronger, usually, I was thinking more specifically of the responses that The Forsaken have to her ability. I cannot recall who, but one of them expresses incredulity at her being stronger than them. If it is Lanfear I am thinking of, then that puts her equal to LTT, or at least Demandred.

Nyn is nowhere close to as strong as Lanfear, you are thinking of Moggy. Cyndane did reference Alivia as being stronger. Here is a saidar ranking that is thought to be fairly accurate.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

[Tsukibana]

Excellent link. Thanks, Tree.

[Charred Knight]

And now, finally, thankfully Androl. Yes, it was far more satisfying to see him solve the Black Tower problem, than watch Logain and Taim duke it out with their superior OP muscles.

 

So instead of seeing Logain and Taim duke it out over superior OP muscles we see Androl use his massive talent to flex his OP muscles (since Androl did a lot more with the OP than Logain ever did) and then instead of the much more competent and worthy Androl being named leader of the Black Tower we instead get Logain whose leader simply because of some viewing Min had.  So instead of deciding leadership by way of power, we are deciding leadership by way of Power Levels and prophecies.  I don't see much difference between the latter and former.  Answer me this why is Logain the leader of the Black Tower at the end of the series?  He doesn't accomplish anything worthy of such a mantle.  I didnt finish the book thinking that the Black Tower was in good hands I thought the opposite I saw Logain as a whiny moron whose one virtue was that he had the ability to channel a lot of power (even then its not like he could do anything with all that power).

[Celebel]

Rand and Nyna hardly equal?? How so, sir? Where do we see her rated as such?

 

They were hardly equal, because when they worked together, Rand came to her with a plan and she helped implement it. They never planned together and Nynaeve never could convince Rand to try things her way.

 

So instead of seeing Logain and Taim duke it out over superior OP muscles we see Androl use his massive talent to flex his OP muscles (since Androl did a lot more with the OP than Logain ever did) and then instead of the much more competent and worthy Androl being named leader of the Black Tower we instead get Logain whose leader simply because of some viewing Min had.  

 

Androl used his Talent in clever and interesting ways, which is more than we can say for 90% of channeling confrontations in WoT. Also, there was some decent planning involved, some bad-assness from Pevara and other Asha'man...

 

 

Answer me this why is Logain the leader of the Black Tower at the end of the series?  He doesn't accomplish anything worthy of such a mantle.  I didnt finish the book thinking that the Black Tower was in good hands I thought the opposite I saw Logain as a whiny moron whose one virtue was that he had the ability to channel a lot of power (even then its not like he could do anything with all that power).

 

For the same reason that he became leader of his faction in the first place, despite being  a Johnny come lately? Because he had great charisma and great strength in OP.

Logain was always a douche with some better tendencies, nothing more. The way he was during the escape from the White Tower and in Salidar... knowing fully well that he wholly deserved his fate. He was not son of a maiden, born on the slopes of the Dragonmount, yet he started a war that killed thousands, some of which he killed personally with OP.

 

Androl may have been more competent and a better person, but Logain was the figure who inspired all those men to resist. Yes, fate is unfair and some people are destined for glory who don't wholly deserve it. IMHO, that was a pretty brilliant twist.

[LewsTherin10]

All of the men at the Black Tower look up to Logain.  He was the only one powerful enough to rival Taim.  He protected the good men who didn't like Taim.  He is also much more knowledgeable in weaves and more powerful than anyone at the time.  You have to remember that Logain was great leader being able to inspire others to his cause as a false Dragon.  I don't think even Androl would argue that.

[Vardar]

All of the men at the Black Tower look up to Logain.  He was the only one powerful enough to rival Taim.  He protected the good men who didn't like Taim.  He is also much more knowledgeable in weaves and more powerful than anyone at the time.  You have to remember that Logain was great leader being able to inspire others to his cause as a false Dragon.  I don't think even Androl would argue that.

 

 

People forget his charisma because it's sometimes overshadowed by his raw power. I see what the other guy is trying to say, while Logain surely has potential, and the charisma, Androl is out and about doing the things a leader needs to do. I mean he was tortured too, and not just for a few days like Logain, the man was tortured by Taim and his cronies from the day he arrived, and he persevered. All the qualities you want in a leader. However looks and charisma, just like in the real world, will get you further, especially with the uneducated masses.