something from quite far back in the series... but still...

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Using the Forsaken actually negated any argument you might make. In TEOTW. Meetings at the Eye' date=' Aginor and Balthamel have both Aged three thoudand years since they were near the surface. As soon as they begin chanelling they begin to be restored to the bodies they had before the Bore was sealed. Semirhage, Lanfear, Grandael, Mesaana and Moghedien all are in the same physical condition they were before the sealing. Now its possble they were deep enough in the bore not to age. Consider this all of the Woman forsaken were contemporaries of LTT and the male Forsaken. that would make them midle aged at least Yet they have retained the beauty of their youth. Lanfear, Grandael and Semirhage are all described as the most beautiful of women. We can be sure that none of them were ever subjected to the Oath Rod. They were not used in that fashion in AOL.

The ritual of becomng Aes Sedai began with the advent of the White Tower.

 

How is it possible for women to be three thousand years old and retain their youthful looks?[/quote']

 

Regarding your statement about Agi/Balthamel: Huh? As soon as they bgan channeling...? Are you implying that their extremely aged bodies (which WAS due to being too near the surface and the "grinding of the wheel" as has been stated in a few places) were starting to gradually get younger/restored the more they channeled? I'm curious to where you read this, because I certainly have never read anything of the kind... Aginor said "I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh..."

 

The female Forsaken are beautiful, and looking no more than middle-aged, but none of them have an ageless appearance, which is what we're talking about here, and is further evidence that the Oath Rod causes the ageless appearance (no OR in AoL = no ageless affect; OR in 3rd Age = ageless affect in women who swear oaths on it only). The Forsaken have slowed drastically, since they're so strong in the Power, and possibly due to some affect of their oaths to the Dark One with implied immortality (not sure about the last though). So yes, they don't look to be thousands of years old. Yes some of them are remarkably good-looking. But none of them are Ageless.

 

You answered your own question at the end. They did not age because they were trapped in the Bore more deeply than Agi/Balthamel.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Master of the Blades ... you're confusing the "ageless" look with actual aging. I'm not denying that the Oath Rod shortens the life of Aes Sedai, because thats true. But the stress of living with those Oaths bound into their flesh, which causes an "ageless", not young, look.

 

New Spring, chapter 11, when Moiraine originally swears on the Oath Rod, she feels her skin "tighten to the point of pain" from head to foot.

 

The Path of Daggers, chapter 26 Seaine's POV she thinks of how her skin is still tight from re-taking the Oath against telling a lie.

 

Winter's Heart, Prologue, describes when Talene is released from her Black Ajah Oaths and re-swears the Three Oaths (I would provide detail here, but my copy of Winter's Heart seems to have wandered off).

 

Then, there is simple logic.

 

If the "ageless" look were attained by long use of the Power, why doesn't Alivia, who has been using it with great strength for almost 600 years, have the "ageless" look? If the "ageless" look comes to everyone who uses the Power, why don't any non-Aes Sedai channelers (like the Kin) get it? After all, if they did, they couldn't hide anywhere ... everyone could see their "ageless" look. Why is Amys described as looking "young" rather than "ageless" (two different words with different meanings). Why are none of the Forsaken "ageless"? And before you go off on this again:

 

Using the Forsaken actually negated any argument you might make. In TEOTW. Meetings at the Eye, Aginor and Balthamel have both Aged three thoudand years since they were near the surface. As soon as they begin chanelling they begin to be restored to the bodies they had before the Bore was sealed. Semirhage, Lanfear, Grandael, Mesaana and Moghedien all are in the same physical condition they were before the sealing. Now its possble they were deep enough in the bore not to age. Consider this all of the Woman forsaken were contemporaries of LTT and the male Forsaken. that would make them midle aged at least Yet they have retained the beauty of their youth. Lanfear, Grandael and Semirhage are all described as the most beautiful of women. We can be sure that none of them were ever subjected to the Oath Rod. They were not used in that fashion in AOL.

The ritual of becomng Aes Sedai began with the advent of the White Tower.

 

How is it possible for women to be three thousand years old and retain their youthful looks?

 

You just destroyed your own argument. All the ones trapped far from the surface look young not "ageless". And they don't actually all look young. Mesaana has touches of gray in her hair, and the natural look for the age that goes with gray hair. And none of the men, including Lews Therin (who had been using the Power for hundreds

 

Channeling slows your aging down. The natural aging process still takes place, but at a slower rate. Thus, non-Aes Sedai channelers who are very old (like, for example, Sorilea), look very old, and there are wide variations in between, as with normal aging.

 

Using the Oath Rod makes you look "ageless" and freezes you there until you die or unswear on another binder (the Age of Legends name for the Oath Rod). Aes Sedai who are really old (like Romanda) have the very same "ageless" look. The only thing that changes is their hair color.

 

"Ageless" is different than young. That seems to be the crux of your confusion.

[Meliane]

You have to remember there is a difference between SLOWING and AGELESSNESS. All women who use the One Power slow, but they are not said to be ageless (you can't tell how old they are). Putting a much younger age to someone than their actual age is not the same as not being able to figure out how old they are at all. Agelessness comes from the Oath Rod, which is a fact.

 

Read Nynaeve and Elayne's discussion of slowing after they meet the Kin for the first time. Then read later in the series when Egwene starts thinking about the Oath Rod with respect to the Kin's ages, the slowing, the ageless look... ETC.

 

While I was doing one of my many re-reads, I specifically looked for places where RJ uses the word "ageless." That specific word was only ever used with Aes Sedai who had taken the oaths on the Oath Rod. Others such as Wise Ones, Kin, Sea Folk Windfinders, damane, etc. were only said to be young looking even if they had older features (such as white hair).

 

Another interesting thing I noticed is that RJ never calls Cadsuane "ageless." I always wonder how old she must be to have said all the things she's said and done all the things she's done. I wonder how old she is... and if she ever took the oaths!

[V1zharan]

Master of the Blades wrote:

Using the Forsaken actually negated any argument you might make. In TEOTW. Meetings at the Eye, Aginor and Balthamel have both Aged three thoudand years since they were near the surface. As soon as they begin chanelling they begin to be restored to the bodies they had before the Bore was sealed. Semirhage, Lanfear, Grandael, Mesaana and Moghedien all are in the same physical condition they were before the sealing. Now its possble they were deep enough in the bore not to age. Consider this all of the Woman forsaken were contemporaries of LTT and the male Forsaken. that would make them midle aged at least Yet they have retained the beauty of their youth. Lanfear, Grandael and Semirhage are all described as the most beautiful of women. We can be sure that none of them were ever subjected to the Oath Rod. They were not used in that fashion in AOL.

The ritual of becomng Aes Sedai began with the advent of the White Tower.

 

How is it possible for women to be three thousand years old and retain their youthful looks?

 

 

Regarding your statement about Agi/Balthamel: Huh? As soon as they bgan channeling...? Are you implying that their extremely aged bodies (which WAS due to being too near the surface and the "grinding of the wheel" as has been stated in a few places) were starting to gradually get younger/restored the more they channeled? I'm curious to where you read this, because I certainly have never read anything of the kind... Aginor said "I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh..."

 

While it doesn't necessarily(sp?) say they get their bodies restored, it DOES say they look healthier. I don't have my books with me at this house, but when Aginor comes after Rand after dealing with Moraine Rand describes him as looking younger, healthier, as if he's fed well. As I said, I dont have my books here, so i cant find the exact quote, but someone who can please post it here. Im not using this as part of this argument, I just had to correct you both in saying that while he isnt becoming ageless, he does start looking healthier and all that good stuff. I personally dont like the Oath Rod idea about causing the agelessness, but despite that I cant seem to find a way to contradict the evidence, seems pure Two Rivers stubborness is driving those who believe agelessness comes from channeling.

 

~V1zharan~

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

While it doesn't necessarily(sp?) say they get their bodies restored' date=' it DOES say they look healthier. I don't have my books with me at this house, but when Aginor comes after Rand after dealing with Moraine Rand describes him as looking younger, healthier, as if he's fed well. As I said, I dont have my books here, so i cant find the exact quote, but someone who can please post it here.[/quote']

 

No, you may be right there. That actually rings a bell a little bit... vaguely remembering... :idea:

[RobertAlexWillis]

Aginor does get his body restored, at least partially, at the Eye. From The Eye of the World, chapter 51 Against the Shadow (Rand POV):

 

When he turned, Aginor was there, just reaching the crest. The Forsaken topped the hill without any difficulty, walking up the sttep slope as if it were level ground. Deep-sunken eyes burned at him from that drawn parchment face; somehow, it seemed less withered than before, more fleshed, as if Aginor had fed well on something.

 

and, two paragraphs later:

 

A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith's arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand's hand. The rope pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and strong as himself, a man harder than the Warder, more deadly than the Blight.

 

Clearly, Aginor had the effects of his imprisonment reversed by drawing on the Eye.

 

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Oath Rod, though. We've already seen that channeling can keep you younger, healthier, longer. We've also seen that channeling can actually reverse the effects of aging to a certain extent that have already taken their toll (Sharina Melloy example given here: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=30 ). But being young and healthy (or even middle-aged and healthy) is completely different than being "ageless". "Ageless" is the description of the physical effect that the Oath Rod has on people, which they feel as "tightness" excruciating enough to be painful at first (see the examples I cited above, I'm too lazy to repeat them).

 

As a side note, I failed to respond to a couple of statements:

 

How is it possible for women to be three thousand years old and retain their youthful looks?

 

By being sealed deep away from the the Wheel of Time. Like Lanfear, Moghedien, Mesaana, Graendal, and Semirhage were.

 

Morgase never took the oaths and Can hardly channel that would explain her natural ageing process.

 

Morgase has not aged naturally. She looks younger than she is, actually. To quote:

 

Yes, Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.

 

That's from Mr. Jordan (source: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26)

 

Again, to sum it up:

 

Channeling causes your body to age more slowly. Channelers remain younger for a longer period of time, and appear younger, under normal circumstances. The Oath Rod, by binding the Oaths physiologically into a person, creates stress on their system that causes their life to be shorter than it otherwise would have been (which can still be hundreds of years for channelers). That stress is manifested inwardly as a feeling of "tightness" and is outwardly visible as an "ageless" look. "Ageless" and young are different.

[Master of the Blades]

Wynne

 

I find that your comments are based more on your personal opinion than the content of the books.

 

Regarding your statement about Agi/Balthamel: Huh? As soon as they bgan channeling...? Are you implying that their extremely aged bodies (which WAS due to being too near the surface and the "grinding of the wheel" as has been stated in a few places) were starting to gradually get younger/restored the more they channeled? I'm curious to where you read this, because I certainly have never read anything of the kind... Aginor said "I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh..."

 

TEOTW chapter 51 Against the Shadow.

When he turned, Aginor was there, just reaching the crest. The forsaken topped the hill without any great difficulty, walking up the steep slope as if it were level ground. Deep sunken eyes burned at him from that drawn parchment face; somehow it seem less withered than before, more`fleshed, as if Aginor had fed well on something….

 

…Suddenly he felt something, saw it, though he knew it was not there to see. A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith’s arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand’s hand. The rope pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and as strong as himself, a man harder than the Warder, more deadly than the Blight. Yet beside that shinning cord, the Forsaken almost not to exist. The cord was all. It hummed. It sang. It called to Rand’s soul. One bright finger strand lifted away, drifted, touched him, and he gasped. Light filled him, and the heat that should have burned yet only warmed as if it only took the chill of the grave from his bones. The strand thickened. …

 

… No Aginor shouted. “ you shall not have it! It is mine!”…

…Sweat beaded on Aginor’s face, no longer withered, no longer old, that of a strong man in his prime….

 

 

Rand and Aginor were fighting for control of untainted saidin. Aginor regained his former physique from tapping into it not from some gift from the DO.

 

 

We know none of the Forsaken, Seanchan channelers, or Windfinders have anything like the ageless look. They have all been easily "aged" by the POV of whoever meets them. Only fully raised AS from the White Tower. Natural conclusion is the tightening of the Oaths on the Oath Rod settling into the skin--but again, it's not immediately visible.

 

The Female forsaken have retained their youthful appearance in stark contrast with the physical descriptions that are given of Rahvin, LTT, Be’lal, Sammael and Demandred. Read their descriptions carefully . all the men are described as middled aged with gray tinting their hair their faces are lined. Semirhage, Graendal and Lanfear are described as beautiful and young in appearance.

 

There is little description of the Seanchan Damane other than Alivia who is as old if not older than Cadsuane. She is described as follows. She is over four hundred years. She is a little taller than Nynaeve with fine lines at the corners of her blue eyes and some white in her golden yellow hair. She has eyes like a hawk. Cadsuane is nearly three hundred and is described as She has nearly black eyes and wears her iron gray hair in a bun. Her iron gray hair is worn in a bun with many gold ornaments.

 

As to Athan Mi’iere we have much more information. If we compare the Sailmistresses and the Wavemistresses with the Windfinders a pattern emerges.

 

 

Jorin, She looks young and is taller than her sister.

Coine, Wavedancer (TSR) She has black hair touched with gray and large brown eyes with fine wrinkles at the corners.

 

Taval, She looks very young.

Derah White Spray (ACOS) She is a handsome woman a little short of her middle years.

 

Caire, She is more than handsome with almost black eyes, a straight nose and a strong chin.

Pelanna She has tightly curled hair nearly all gray.

 

Shielyn, She is slender, coolly reserved, and almost as tall as Aviendha.

Zaida Mistress of the ships (KOD) She is very dark and stunningly beautiful. She has flecks of gray in the tight black curls of her hair. She is short, with a close cap of graying curls.

 

Tebreille She is more than handsome with almost black eyes, a straight nose and a strong chin.

Mareil wavemistress (KOD) She is tall and slender woman with shoulder-length hair as much white as black.

 

Dorile She is slender and handsome.

Malin Windrunner (ACOS) She has heavily gray streaked hair,

 

Renaile She has a deep voice and is very dignified. She is handsome, in her middle years, with black eyes and wings of white in her black hair.

Nesta Din Reas Mistress of ths Ships (ACOS) She is an old woman with white hair, as short as Nynaeve, and stocky

 

Shalon She is young and pretty.

Harine Wavemistress (WH)She is handsome and full-mouthed with white streaks in her hair. She has an unlined face, but streaks of white in her black hair.

 

Notice that all the Windfinders are younger in appearance than their Wavemistresses or Sailmistresses. One possibility is that they are chronologically younger.

 

We know that Shalon is Harine’s older sister.

 

We also know that Caire has a daughter Taalan who is nineteen. Given that Windfinder serve a time as apprentices before becoming Windfinders and having time to find a husband Caire should be in her forties maybe her fifties.

 

We also know that Jorin has children that are adults so again she would be in her forties at least. And yet she looks younger than her sister.

 

Your assertion that there is no evidence among the Athan Mie’re of slowing has no basis in fact.

 

Slowing and ageless look are one and the same. Hence my contention that it is channelling that is the root cause not the Oath rod. When responding please refer to specific instances in the books not some generalization or assumption you make. It will make for a far more interesting debate.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Well, I'm not sure exactly why you singled out my post to wrangle with, since most of the people who posted after me agreed with me. But since you did, I will respond, even though either you're confused about what I said, or... I don't know, but you conveinently backed up my 'opinion.'

 

The Oath Rod causes the ageless look. This is not my opinion. This is the next thing to fact. Almost everyone concurs with that statement.

 

Read here:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/items/oath_rod.html

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.03_oath-rod.html

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=68

 

The writers of those theories have looked into it a lot more than I have. I read the books, read the points they make, and agree with them.

 

None of the other channelers in the story, beyond the White Tower AS that swear on the OR, have the "ageless" look. Your descriptions are proof of that, when they say 'so-and-so looks just short of their middle years.' Those channelers have SLOWED, as all channelers do, even Morgase or the weakest Wise Ones. But they are not ageless.

 

I don't know what else there is to say. You've already quoted plenty of the books to prove my point, so I won't copy and paste any here myself.

 

(BTW, I previously admitted to being wrong about the Aginor getting stronger from channeling thing from EotW. I already POSTED saying as much, so again I'm confused as to why you're beating a dead horse.)

[Thor]

As I said, (or have I?), one of the reasons why the Forsaken loathed to be bound back in the AoL is because the oath rods mark them out visibly to anyone labelling them as criminals.

 

I think that is pretty clear evidence that the oath rods are the reason for the ageless look. The numbers on it probably refers to the number of years the person can live.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Seriously, Master o' the Blades, do you understand that

 

"ageless"

 

and

 

"young"

 

are two different words with different meanings? You said:

 

Slowing and ageless look are one and the same.

 

No they aren't. Show me one place, even ONE where Robert Jordan said this, or where a character in the books said it, and I'll believe you. Just one. Slowing and the "ageless" look are totally and completely NOT the same thing.

 

When responding please refer to specific instances in the books not some generalization or assumption you make.

 

Hey there. I did. Why don't you take a shot at knocking mine down, since I referenced my arguments, and I agree with Wynne (because she agrees with a certain Mr. Robert Jordan).

 

In the mean time, I'll provide you with some more references:

 

Every Wise One who had come here from Cairhien was able to channel, though none had the ageless look.

 

From A Crown of Swords, chapter 1 High Chasaline

 

There had to be a reason why the Kin looked neither ageless nor anything near the ages they claimed.

 

From The Path of Daggers, chapter 3 A Pleasant Ride

 

There's proof from the books that channelers who are not Aes Sedai do not look "ageless". Also, it takes a while even to affect the Aes Sedai:

 

I don't think anyone has ever reached that [looking Ageless] until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more.

 

From A Crown of Swords, chapter 24 The Kin

 

If you have any more questions, there is further explanation and more quotes, from the books, here:

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=68

 

I'm sorry if this is really important to you for some reason, but you're wrong. The "ageless" look is definitely caused by the Oath Rod. Both the books and Mr. Jordan say so.

[son omerc]

RJ describes the ageless look more than once in the earlier books as looking 20 at one glance 40 at another switching often enough that the observer cannot put ANY definite age to the AS. Most are described as smooth cheeked even when their hair is described as white or nearly white.

 

RJ clearly makes a distinction when describing The Windfinders, Kin, Aiel Wise Ones, and female Forsaken. He often refers to them being just short of middle aged, older, aged, and so on. He never mentions being older at one glance then 20 years younger the next. He clearly describes many as having wrinkles or fine lines around eyes and mouths. Sorelia is described as leathery and you can't possibly confuse leathery and smooth cheeked.

 

The instance of Aginor growing younger is a special circumstance, he and Rand tapped into a pool of saidin that was physically present in the world. Nowhere else in the entire story do we see saidin or saidar in physical form. Moiraine even states that the entire White Tower couldn't fill a teacup, couldn't produce one physical drop of saidar. No one knows what effects channeling physical saidin would have on a channeler, not even Aginor who THINKS the DO will have to give him new flesh, not knowing the effects that are about to take place.

 

As has been stated, ageless is described differently than younger than expected for the years they claim. Your own examples point out- " Renaile She has a deep voice and is very dignified. She is handsome, in her middle years, with black eyes and wings of white in her black hair." -that definite ages have been attached to windfinders, kin, and Aiel Wise Ones. Nowhere is Moiraine described, aside from her earliest years as described in New Spring, as looking just short of her middle years, people think of her as young seeming but never place an age grouping on her. The same can be said of other Aes Sedai we have seen described. Egwene describes Amys face as SIMMILAR to the AS ageless face, not as the same.