What would you do if you were a male channeler in WoT?

[shortkut]

Setalle did. She snuck out of the tower and left and made her own life

[Hagazussa]

But there has been. Again Cadsuane has a come up with a method of

treatment that integrates them back into society and allows them to live

an almost normal life span.

 

This we do not know. Jordan said short of normal years, how long that is we do not know. Short of normal lifespan can mean anything from a few years to two years below average. We know one of Cadsuane's victims lived for  ten years, we actually have nothing to indicate that the norm was longer than that, or that it was shorter, all we know is that she helped them to live longer than the couple of years normal for most gentled men.

 

(growls at the name "Cadsuane". Of course Jordan's pet had to come up

with a treatment for that. It can't just be the man himself, oh no.

Can't have that)

 

Like already stated, if we look past the supernatural elements of the thing, overcoming serious depression very often requires outside help, that do not mean that the one overcoming it is weak.

 

That's the thing I have a hard time comprehending. I know all the

technical reasons. But I have a hard time believing that NO ONE has ever

overcome True Source withdrawl on their own

 

A very few do. It is stated again and again in the books that those that manage to find something to live for can survive severing, at least for a while. I am sure that let us say a father with a young child to care for would have allot greater chance of surviving than someone without such a motivation. But here is the rub, that something is technically possible to survive is not a good reason to jump at it, the chances that a severed channeler will live very long, and have much of a quality of life for the time they are alive is rather slim.

 

Setalle did. She snuck out of the tower and left and made her own life

 

Actually she did not do it alone, she met the man that would become her husband, when he found her she was sick and near death, only when he started caring for her did she actually start building a life for herself.

 

In addition to what Sutt said, I imagine that men didn't receive the

same type of support some woman may have. They're dragged back to the

Tower in a cage, put in shock, and then viewed with pity and maybe

disdain in their life afterwards. That, in addition to having just been

cut off from the source, probably made for some really steep depression.

 

I actually think it is worse for the women. They are just booted out of the Tower as soon as they can stand after they have been severed unless they are to be kept as servants as punishment, but most who get legally stilled and those who burn themselves out just get tossed on their head out. Now these women have made working with the One Power their entire life, they have left behind their family for the most part and channeling is their lives, they have nothing else. The men for the most part have professions, and lives that do not revolve around channeling. That being said it is stated in the books several times that men and women react to severing about as badly and both tend to die rather quickly unless they find something to live for.

 

Also, there's not a single known case. I'm not saying

men did, but I suspect any man who did try and make a living afterwards

would be viewed like a sex criminal in today's society, and would

probably try to ditch any association he had with his past life.

 

I guess there is no known case of men surviving completely on their own, but Cadsuane's men lived for a while. Also for severed women, none of them did it on their own either Setalle had her husband nursing her back to health. Siuan and Leane was only in that condition for a few months and therefore would not count on the statistics and the trio that Rand stilled was under constant supervision from the Aiel and was in rather bad condition and at least one of them wished that she was dead, and from what I understood she was the best functioning of them.

 

Well a man who wanted to try to make a living for himself afterwards could always go to another city or village, if he choose one a bit of a distance from where he was taken it is doubtful that anyone would ever figure out what he was.

 

Become the best healer ever!  Then create a moral dilemma for whatever

Aes Sedai that comes my way claiming: Gentling me will do more harm then

good

 

Yes and let us say that the Aes Sedai hunting you decide, okey we can not destroy this great healer, let us set him up in a clinic somewhere, then all would be fine and dandy for let us say a few years and then boom one day you would be convinced that a voice inside the wall where trying to kill you and blast the entire clinic, patients and all sky high and then get working on the surrounding city, after all such murderous wall voices are devious, unless you get all the buildings around it might come back.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

In my opinion, Male Channelers in the books are thought of as animals and are treated no better then such.  They are to be caged, tamed, broken, castrated and then tossed away.  The use of the term 'Gentled', I believe supports this."Gentled" is used today in regards to animals.  To "gentle a horse" is to tame or break it.  I have also seen the term used in reference to male dogs as a way to say "neutering" (ie Castration). 

 

Morally speaking, this practice is accepted and embraced by a majority of people in the books. The only way to accept a practice that metaphorically 'castrates' and then eventually kills someone, is to think of them as an animal in the first place.. either that, or turn a blind eye to the situation as a whole and dismiss it with denial  (ie.  They are better off that way, they will eventually go mad and die anyway...our way is more humane).  I personally find it chilling that the AS take an almost 'Final Solution' stance and attitude to the process. Men are captured for no other reason then for being born different, then they are reduced to an inhuman status, and then killed. (BTW, the concept a man -could- chose this, used as justification for the above treatment, is just more denial as to how horrific this practice is.  ) 

 

Given that view, I am pretty sure I would never willingly walk into that situation. :)  

 

For me, I am sure I would take the route of Androl's father.  I would keep it quiet until I recognised my own madness, then I would quietly end my own life.  I view this like a terminal illness.  It would be essentially death with dignity.

 

 

This is all given not being born Aiel or Sharan or etc..

 

 

 

 

[Suttree]

@Adda

 

Societies reaction to mean who can channel is very realistic given the taint and breaking. Are you suggesting there was another solution to the issue? For all that we can wish all AS did it Cadsuane's way you can't argue against the necessity given what happens when a male channeler goes insane. They almost destroyed the world. It is hardly just because they are "born different". They way they are treated in Shara for example is more "horrific". There they truly are considered animals used only for breeding stock.

 

@Hagz

 

I know you choose to interpret RJ's quote differently but they are notes to himself. "just short of a normal life span" and "lived considerably longer than usual" seems pretty clear to me.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

@Adda

 

Societies reaction to mean who can channel is very realistic given the taint and breaking. Are you suggesting there was a another solution to the issue? For all that we can wish all AS did it Cadsuane's way you can't argue against the necessity given what happens when a male channeler goes insane. They almost destroyed the world. It is hardly just because they are "born different". They way they are treated in Shara for example is more "horrific". There they truly are considered animals used only for breeding stock.

 

I wasnt suggesting anything, I was just answering the topic with my opinion to justify it :)

 

Not saying the treatment was not realistic.  Just commenting on the morality of the issue.  

 

The point in what I wrote is that Male Channelers were stripped of thier humanity and treated like animals.  The proof for my view is in the terms used, and the expressed attitudes of the characters.   There is no moral justification for such a thing... at least to my modern ideals.

 

Both the AS solution and the Sharan solution are horrific.. castration and a depressing death, vs. breeding stock?.... niether is "better"

 

The only culture that treated male channelers in a humane way was the Aiel. That method at least allowed the man to retain his dignity in death.   

 

I think I could draw a bunch of parallels here.. some loose, some not.  In the end though, some of the worst crimes of humanity come from our fear of something..

[Suttree]

Would be interested to hear what you would propose they do differently then? Keep in mid that something had to be done, there is no way around that. Also as has been noted Cadsuane's treatment didn't lead to that death, they adjusted back into society.

 

Also can't post about it on this board but the Aiel solution(of which it really wasn't one) was obviously not ideal in the end either.

[Hagazussa]

In my opinion, Male Channelers in the books are thought of as animals

and are treated no better then such.  They are to be caged, tamed,

broken, castrated and then tossed away.  The use of the term 'Gentled', I

believe supports this."Gentled" is used today in regards to

animals.  To "gentle a horse" is to tame or break it.  I have also seen

the term used in reference to male dogs as a way to say "neutering" (ie

Castration).

 

Ehm, yeah the parallels to castration is rather strong.

 

Morally speaking, this practice is accepted and embraced by a majority

of people in the books. The only way to accept a practice

that metaphorically 'castrates' and then eventually kills someone, is to

think of them as an animal in the first place.. either that, or turn a

blind eye to the situation as a whole and dismiss it with denial  (ie. 

They are better off that way, they will eventually go mad and die

anyway...our way is more humane).  I personally find it chilling that

the AS take an almost 'Final Solution' stance and attitude to the

process.

 

The regular population might view male channelers as rabid dogs, but I have the impression that the Aes Sedai see them in a more tragic light, that they honestly thing they are being more merciful by gentling them than if they had killed them. Look at how Logain is treated, even if he had killed several Aes Sedai and started a devastating war he was not mistreated after his gentling, and while probably part of the reason why they wanted to keep him alive was to have him as a sort of trophy, part of it I think was genuine kindness.

 

Men are captured for no other reason then for being born different, then

they are reduced to an inhuman status, and then killed. (BTW, the

concept a man -could- chose this, used as justification for the above

treatment, is just more denial as to how horrific this practice is.  )

 

To be fair to the Aes Sedai they do not capture male channelers because they are different, but because they will all one day go insane and then do allot of damage. Remember the Wheel of Time channelers, with the exception of a very few weak ones, are extremely powerful, if male channelers was allowed to go free the would would be rubble rather quickly. That being said the practice is horrific and from the descriptions in the books gentling is worse than death. I think the men should be given a choice between a quick easy death and gentling, that way if they want to try to survive without the Power they can, but I have a feeling most would choose death.

 

Given that view, I am pretty sure I would never willingly walk into that situation. :)

 

Oh hell no I would run for the hills! If I was a male channeler in WoT then like I said in my intro post to this thread I would stay as far away from Aes Sedai as I could and then I would try to live as normally as I could until I felt myself starting to go insane and then I would go to the Blight and do as much damage as I could before I was taken down, and if I was captured by Aes Sedai I would fight, beg, cry, kick, scream and anything else to avoid gentling, including killing if I had to.

 

Both the AS solution and the Sharan solution are horrific.. castration

and a depressing death, vs. breeding stock?.... niether is "better"

 

Well yes both are horrific but to be honest, if the choice stood between having a piece of my soul cut out and then die from massive depression or being kept as ignorant breeding stock and then killed I would choose being breeding stock, I would not even need to think about it, breed away.

 

The only culture that treated male channelers in a humane way was the

Aiel. That method at least allowed the man to retain his dignity in

death.

 

That I agree with.

 

I think I could draw a bunch of parallels here.. some loose, some not. 

In the end though, some of the worst crimes of humanity come from our

fear of something..

 

The problem is sometimes the fear is justified, as in the case with male channelers. It do not make the horrors done to them any less though, but it makes them at least understandable.

 

I know you choose to interpret RJ's quote differently but they are notes

to himself. "just short of a normal life span" and "lived considerably

longer than usual" seems pretty clear to me.

 

The question here is the wording of the quote. As far as I remember, I can be wrong, but it says short of normal years, not just short of normal years. Just short of normal years means that they can live an almost full life yes, but short of normal years can mean anything from just a few years longer than the norm to a month shorter than the national average and anything in between.

 

Would be interested to hear what you would propose they do differently

then? Keep in mid that something had to be done, there is no way around

that. Also as has been noted Cadsuane's treatment didn't lead to that

death, they adjusted back into society.

 

Yes it lead to that death, the men just got to live a bit longer, they still died, and like we have discussed before and that I know you disagree with me on, something kills them, and we know that what kills with severing is the depression and that it tend to catch up to a resonantly functional former channeler so every indication is that yes Cadsuane's men eventually died of depression as well, but they got somewhat longer and better lives than most men in their situation.

 

It is like this. Let us say we have an illness that kill 99 percent of those that get it within three years, and when the afflicted die they die from heart attacks, then it is noted that those that got medicine A live allot longer than everyone else with this affliction but they to die short of normal years, knowing the illness kills with heart trouble it would be a reasonable assumption that also those that was treated with medicine A died from a heart attack if no other cause of death was mentioned for this group. The point is the male channelers that Cadsuane takes in also dies, they just live longer, so either they die from depression or severing do some other kind of damage to a person, damage never mentioned in the books that could indicate why this group then would live shorter lives then the rest of the population.

 

Also, even if the Aes Sedai know that Cadsuane's methods exist and are ways to give former male channelers longer lives and better life quality they do not use said methods for any men other than the ones Cadsuane captures nor do they help any burned out Aes Sedai with it, and that really is a black mark against them. Off course it could be that Cadsuane just refuses to share her methods in which case she might be WoT's greatest bitch, but more likely the rest of the Aes Sedai just are not interested in which case they leave allot of men, and some women to suffer terribly and then die of horrific depression where they might have been helped to have decades of good life quality until the depressions eventually claimed them.

[alokov]

Well, if this is post-Black Tower I would go there. I've always had a preoccupation with martyrdom and wanting to make my death mean something, even IRL.

 

If this si pre-Black Tower go spit in Sightblinder's eye.

 

Byy the way, why would Cadsuane finding you make you live longer? She still gentles people right? I remember her doing it outside the Tower (I think) and getting in trouble for it, but where did you get this idea from.

[Suttree]

W

Byy the way, why would Cadsuane finding you make you live longer? She still gentles people right? I remember her doing it outside the Tower (I think) and getting in trouble for it, but where did you get this idea from.

She never gentled anyone outside the WT and got in trouble for it. That was the Reds(guided by the BA) during a period of time known as "The Vileness". Cadsuane per RJ's notes had a "nose" for men who could channel. She captured more than any "10 Reds" combined. The notes go on to say of her method(it seems as if it is basically intense after care, which makes sense given what we know of her character in that she is always trying to better those around her):

RJ

She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal. They eventually died short of a normal span, but they lived considerably longer than usual.

You can see all the notes on her here. Pretty cool stuff.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=652

 

@Hagz

 

You were correct, no "just" there. I had misremembered.

[Hagazussa]

Byy the way, why would Cadsuane finding you make you live longer? She

still gentles people right? I remember her doing it outside the Tower

(I think) and getting in trouble for it, but where did you get this idea

from.

 

Cadsuane never gentled anyone herself, she brought them to the Tower for proper trial. For an Aes Sedai to use that weave on anyone without sanction is considered a very serious crime and is actually a stilling offense, the reason why the Reds that got caught for the vileness was not stilled or executed or both was that it would be to much of a scandal to do so to three Sitters and who know how many others, so for the Sitters they where sent to a farm and the others where just more or less ignored.

 

Now the point is Cadsuane is not cruel, she wanted to help the male channelers she found, and she had to have gotten quite a few of them to go with her willingly, I mean several she brought to the Tower single handedly and male channelers tend to be stronger than women so tying off a shield while she slept might have been difficult. No Cadsuane spent a great deal of time with each man, not much is said about her methods but in one of her point of view chapters she thinks back that she helped one to accept what had happened to him and live with it, that would probably require working with them for quite some time. Gentling a man in the field and then leaving is an easy solution, Cadsuane is not that into easy solutions.

 

Now if one like to speculate, I think it is possible that if Cadsuane found a man who did not channel consciously yet, he was at the stage where he wished for things and they sometimes happened, then it is possible that she would give him a story about him being ill in some way, and that she had an effective though painful cure, take him into a barn, put up a ward so no one could heard him scream, gentle him and then just never tell him what he was. I think it is possible that if a man have never consciously channeled they will not suffer from the same depressions as they will never had felt just how good channeling feel, they would just know sometimes when they wish for something things happens, and as such it might be less traumatic to be told that he is ill and that the cure will hurt and then leave him alone once he had recovered never knowing than to haul him off to the Tower so all his neighbors and himself will know what he was. But something like that would be pure speculation and that is the only situation where I could imagine Cadsuane would gentle anyone in the field.

 

Now as for why Cadsuane finding you if you are a male channeler will make you live longer, well she seam to work with them and help them come to terms with what have happened. Probably if I am to speculate based on her personality with a combination of getting the men to see the need of what have happened so they can accept it, comfort when it is needed and a healthy dose of kicking them in their ass to get them to do things when they get to inactive. Therapy pure and simple, Cadsuane is a shrink. :P

[Mr Ares]

In my opinion, Male Channelers in the books are thought of as animals and are treated no better then such.  They are to be caged, tamed, broken, castrated and then tossed away.  The use of the term 'Gentled', I believe supports this."Gentled" is used today in regards to animals.  To "gentle a horse" is to tame or break it.  I have also seen the term used in reference to male dogs as a way to say "neutering" (ie Castration). 

 

Morally speaking, this practice is accepted and embraced by a majority of people in the books. The only way to accept a practice that metaphorically 'castrates' and then eventually kills someone, is to think of them as an animal in the first place.. either that, or turn a blind eye to the situation as a whole and dismiss it with denial  (ie.  They are better off that way, they will eventually go mad and die anyway...our way is more humane).  I personally find it chilling that the AS take an almost 'Final Solution' stance and attitude to the process. Men are captured for no other reason then for being born different, then they are reduced to an inhuman status, and then killed. (BTW, the concept a man -could- chose this, used as justification for the above treatment, is just more denial as to how horrific this practice is.  ) 

 

Given that view, I am pretty sure I would never willingly walk into that situation. :)  

 

For me, I am sure I would take the route of Androl's father.  I would keep it quiet until I recognised my own madness, then I would quietly end my own life.  I view this like a terminal illness.  It would be essentially death with dignity.

 

 

This is all given not being born Aiel or Sharan or etc..

There's really no support for the idea that male channelers are treated like animals, at least in the Westlands. The AS are in a difficult position - male channelers are a problem. They will go insane and start rotting, eventually. The Power will kill them, and quite possibly a lot of other people around them too. So, you have a choice: help them, or kill them. Some cultures elected to kill, the AS alone opted to help the men. The Aiel way, of choosing suicide, makes sense in terms of their culture, but in many of the other cultures this option would not be widely accepted. Some few, especially in the borderlands, might go along with it, but I think many would refuse outright, or would agree, then double back once out of sight of the AS and so never meet their death in the Blight if they can at all help it. The Sharans keep their channelers as breeding stock, so they don't have a choice, and the Sea Folk are mostly going around on ships - little room to run and hide. The Aiel have a culture in which honour and obligation are deeply embedded concepts - an Aiel who didn't want to go to the Blight would lose a lot of honour, and would be a source of shame to any who sheltered him - his family or society would probably turn him over to the Wise Ones or kill him themselves in order to meet their toh. The Westlands nations are the only ones that offer a choice or a humanitarian solution - nothing like a Final Solution. They don't persecute people for being born different, they don't mistreat men. True, they have appalling bedside manners, and after care might often be deeply lacking, but they have come up with the only solution that gives the man a chance of life and of happiness. Morally, to do nothing would be bad, to kill them would be bad. There are no good options, and the AS have decided to stick with the best of them. To liken it to the Final Solution is absurd - the AS try to save lives, both those of the channelers and of other people. They don't hunt people because they were born different, they deal with a legitimate problem. These men will go insane without intervention. Most people probably wouldn't opt for death, nor would they be willing to go through with their own suicide (people can be very attached to their lives, I've found). So murder and gentling are the only solutions, unless you consider letting people go insane and doing nothing to help to be a solution. Why is death better than life?

[Hagazussa]

They will go insane and start rotting, eventually. The Power will kill

them, and quite possibly a lot of other people around them too. So, you

have a choice: help them, or kill them. Some cultures elected to kill,

the AS alone opted to help the men.

 

Ehm...if cutting a piece of someone's soul out and then have them die from horrible depression is your idea of help, then you and I have rather different ideas about what that word mean. Also remember the Aes Sedai themselves consider severing worse than death, doing something to someone you consider worse than death that is not help. Yes they have to do something to deal with the male channelers, but if you consider something to be worse than death then killing would be far more help than doing that thing to them.

 

The Westlands nations are the only ones that offer a choice or a humanitarian solution - nothing like a Final Solution.

 

How on earth is gentling a humanitarian solution. First of all it is like Moghedien herself comments in one of her point of view chapters the most painful thing it is possible to experience and then the man will with 99 percent certainty die of horrible depression. There are worse things than death and that kind of depression is one of them. When you see how Logain is for the most of the time he is gentled, especially at the end of his journey with Siuan and the rest, that is not humanitarian.

 

They don't persecute people for being born different, they don't

mistreat men. True, they have appalling bedside manners, and after care

might often be deeply lacking, but they have come up with the only

solution that gives the man a chance of life and of happiness. Morally,

to do nothing would be bad, to kill them would be bad. There are no good

options, and the AS have decided to stick with the best of them. To

liken it to the Final Solution is absurd - the AS try to save lives,

both those of the channelers and of other people. They don't hunt people

because they were born different, they deal with a legitimate problem.

 

I agree the Aes Sedai do not prosecute the male channelers for being different, and they have to do something, they also do not treat their male channeler prisoners badly once they get to the Tower though some Reds do on the way. But I completely disagree that it is the best solution. The point is most gentled male channelers do not survive, gentling is as much killing them as stabbing them with a sword would be, it is just that it is also extremely painful and then lead to a long, drawn out, miserable death. If we ignore the supernatural elements and look at that kind of massive depression in the real world, yes I would rather have been taken out back and shot than suffer that, in fact I would happily have been taken out back and shot, and then we add the problems with loosing their magickal abilities, the longing to channel and the fact that a piece of their soul have been cut out, there is no way to say that is better than death. Yes a very few manages to survive and have decent lives, but that is very, very few and usually only with after care that is just not given to most, so no male channelers do not realistically have much of a chance for life an happiness if they are gentled, they will suffer horribly for a few years and then die. What would have been mercy was if the men was given a choice between gentling and death, and if the former was chosen that they where given proper care afterwards to increase their chances of survival. Just gentling them is worse than death, though I agree that many Aes Sedai probably have convinced themselves that it is the best solution even if they themselves would have chosen death rather than be stilled.

 

These men will go insane without intervention. Most people probably

wouldn't opt for death, nor would they be willing to go through with

their own suicide (people can be very attached to their lives, I've

found). So murder and gentling are the only solutions, unless you

consider letting people go insane and doing nothing to help to be a

solution. Why is death better than life?

 

Normally death is not better than life, but there are some instances where it are. Let us go to our real world again. I would rather die then have Alzheimer for example and slowly loose everything that makes me into me, there are fates worse than death. Now for example the kind of depression that severing gives, that is a fate worse than death, especially when it normally can not be cured. When you look at Logain at the end of that journey, he would eat if someone pushed food into his mouth, he would walk if someone pushed him and otherwise just stare into nothing. Well it is possible to get that depressed, and it is horrible, far worse than physical pain, and if it is most likely incurable that is not living and yes death would be far, far better than such a state.

 

Now in the books various Aes Sedai again and again say severing is a fate worse than death, most channelers think it is, so I think that most, given a choice would choose death, the only exceptions would most likely be those who had something important to do, like raising a family for example, and those would be the ones with the best chance of survival anyway.

[Suttree]

It comes down to personnel choice here Hagz. A good number of people I've seen on the boards don't agree that they would rather be killed. They want a fighting chance at continued life. Mr Ares is spot on and although giving them the option of death is an interesting suggestion still not sure how I feel about it over all.

 

Also I've always been interested about the "most painful" quote you talk about. People we have seen stilled dont really react as if that is the case so hoping you could provide it? As for the fate worse than death you are taking that a bit too literally. Siuan for example certainly doesn't think so. She quickly focuses on a goal and goes on with her life. You've made clear what option you would take, but the books give us examples of people surviving through strength of will. A shot at life, that is far better than certain death no matter how hard one needs to work at surviving.

[Hagazussa]

It comes down to personnel choice here Hagz. A good number of people

I've seen on the boards don't agree that they would rather be killed.

They want a fighting chance at continued life. Mr Ares is spot on and

although giving them the option of death is an interesting suggestion

still not sure how I feel about it over all.

 

I agree it would be a personal choice, so what would be wrong with letting male channeler have that choice? I mean those that choose gentling might even be less bitter about it and have a great chance to accept it as they have a choice instead of it being forced upon them.

 

Also I've always been interested about the "most painful" quote you talk

about. People we have seen stilled dont really react as if that is the

case so hoping you could provide it?

 

I have provided the quote a couple of times but I can find it again for you. Also yes every person that we have seen severed have reacted with great pain, either screaming or faining, and one kept screaming for quite a bit of time afterwards, that being one of those that Rand stilled, who was still screaming by the time Taim's boys had rounded up all the Aes Sedai.

 

No. She knew she was going to die, but this Myrddraal would not eat one shred of her! She reached to embrace saidar, and her eyes bulged. There was nothing there. Nothing! It was as if she had been severed! She knew she had not-it was said that tearing was the deepest pain anyone could know, beyond any power to deaden

 

And that is from the chapter Mindtrap from A Crown of Swords. Now one could read the quote as meaning the deepest emotional pain, not that that interpretation makes it any better, however the wording makes it really clear it is the severing itself that hurts, especially with it being mentioned that it is beyond any power to deaden which usually mean that nothing can lessen said pain.

 

As for those severed on screen, as far as I know there is only four, the three Aes Sedai Rand stills when he escapes from the box, and the Black Ajah Sister that Egwene more or less accidentally stills from the dreamworld. Of these the Black Ajah Sister screams and react as if the experience is not exactly pleasant and of the three Rand still two faint on the spot and the third have this reaction:

 

The third an angular woman, was on her knees staring at nothing, clutching her head in both hands and screaming. She seamed untouched by all the splinters and pieces of the chest.

 

And that is from Lord of Chaos and the chapter is Dumai Wells. Now also the same woman after the battle is done and she and the others are rounded up by Taim and his boys she is still screaming. Now if someone sat on their knees, clutching their head and screaming for minutes on end seemingly oblivious about what was going on around them, in this case a war, would you think the person to perhaps be in pain?

 

As for the fate worse than death you are taking that a bit too

literally. Siuan for example certainly doesn't think so. She quickly

focuses on a goal and goes on with her life.

 

That some manage to find something to live for and go on, do not mean it is not a fate worse then death for most. Just like with bad things that can happen to someone in the real world, I heard of someone who had been left completely paralyzed, I mean he could not talk, move or do anything other and lie in a bed, then after twenty years they had gotten him a computer he could operate with his eyes and now he is writing a book and is happy he survived his accident, and that is commendable, it is amazing, but that do not mean that a fair percentage of people would not have preferred to die other than end up completely paralyzed and isolated like that.

 

You've made clear what option you would take, but the books give us

examples of people surviving through strength of will. A shot at life,

that is far better than certain death no matter how hard one needs to

work at surviving.

 

For some it would be better to be gentled and try to survive but for most it would not, and would it not be better if that was the man's own choice and not something that was forced upon him? Why not just give him the choice between death and gentling, and then those that want to try to survive it could try.

[Suttree]

Thanks for the quotes. I should have more accurately said "some people" don't react as if that is the case. Also yeah, I always took the head in hands screaming as emotional pain/shock at the loss.

[Hagazussa]

Thanks for the quotes. I should have more accurately said "some

people" don't react as if that is the case. Also yeah, I always took the

head in hands screaming as emotional pain/shock at the loss.

 

Can I ask which character who have been severed on screen who have not reacted as if they are in pain, for as far as I know only seven characters are severed in a cause of the books, off course I could have forgotten about someone. We have the three Aes Sedai who Rand stills where two faint from the shock and one screams her lungs out, one who Equene stills who screams and then we have Siuan, Leane and Logain, the the last three we do not see severed, we only encounter them after the fact so we do not know how they reacted when it was done.

 

Off course it could be that the pain suffered is not physical pain but more emotional pain and shock as you say, but that is still pain. I mean Moghedien basically reject the idea that she could have been severed on the basis that it would hurt so badly that she would have known if she had been. Though off course than pain could be emotional or even something completely different since we are talking about damage to spiritual parts of the anatomy, but that still makes it pain, and still makes it extremely traumatic for the victim.

 

One thing that is speculation but which could be related is that channelers do seam to feel their connections to the Source or at least what happens with them spiritually, if a weave is cut then the recoil can be anything from uncomfortable to painful. Over channeling is both pleasurable and painful, with it turning more towards pain the more is drawn and here again pain in the head seam to be the issue. In one scene where Rand over channels he feels pain at the temples and he recognizes this as a warning sign that he is drawing dangerously much on the One Power and he headache get worse the more he draw. Shielding someone to roughly or while they are holding the Power is uncomfortable though not painful, giving a shock and making the channeler felt like a bucket of ice water had been dropped on them if I do not remember it wrong. And during the fight with Lanfear Rand thinks he can feel his connection to the Source if I am not mistaken, and if something that are a part of you can be felt, chances are damaging it will be painful.

[Suttree]

Not saying they haven't reacted in pain, just that it isn't necessarily the most "physically" painful thing it is possible to feel.

[Hagazussa]

Not saying they haven't reacted in pain, just that it isn't

necessarily the most "physically" painful thing it is possible to feel.

 

Off course, that we do not know, that is what Moghedien have heard, which is what they said in the Age of Legends, it could be that there is allot of things that hurt more, but severing still probably hurt pretty badly.

[Mr Ares]

 

They will go insane and start rotting, eventually. The Power will kill

them, and quite possibly a lot of other people around them too. So, you

have a choice: help them, or kill them. Some cultures elected to kill,

the AS alone opted to help the men.

 

Ehm...if cutting a piece of someone's soul out and then have them die from horrible depression is your idea of help, then you and I have rather different ideas about what that word mean. Also remember the Aes Sedai themselves consider severing worse than death, doing something to someone you consider worse than death that is not help. Yes they have to do something to deal with the male channelers, but if you consider something to be worse than death then killing would be far more help than doing that thing to them.

Any chance of a quote on the "cutting off part of someone's soul" line you keep trotting out? And funnily enough, leaving someone to die of horrible depression sounds like exactly the sort of help I tend to give. Killing the men doesn't help anyone - gentling stops them going mad, which is helpful, and leaves open the possibility of recovering and leading a rich, full life. It's not some sort of automatic death sentence.

 

The Westlands nations are the only ones that offer a choice or a humanitarian solution - nothing like a Final Solution.

 

How on earth is gentling a humanitarian solution. First of all it is like Moghedien herself comments in one of her point of view chapters the most painful thing it is possible to experience and then the man will with 99 percent certainty die of horrible depression. There are worse things than death and that kind of depression is one of them. When you see how Logain is for the most of the time he is gentled, especially at the end of his journey with Siuan and the rest, that is not humanitarian.

Making up statistics, I see. That tends not to convince me. Also, the pain from severing doesn't last forever. We've no indication from Siuan's POV, for example, that she continues to be in unbearable agony. So a valid analogy would be having to carry out an amputation without anaesthesia in order to save a patients life - painful, certainly, but ultimately better to go through the pain and survive than just to die. And yes, we see Logain has good days and bad days (that's depression for you - some times are worse than others), and yes, it is bad to live through. But it is still better to live through it than just to die. It's worth living for the good days, the bad days don't cancel that out. When Logain has a purpose, something to work towards, he is better. They need something to fill the void in their lives. When they have that they function better. It is not an insurmountable condition, and it is not a automatically case of a short miserable life followed by death. I see nothing to conclude that it truly is a fate worse than death - unpleasant, certainly, but not worse than death by any means.

 

They don't persecute people for being born different, they don't

mistreat men. True, they have appalling bedside manners, and after care

might often be deeply lacking, but they have come up with the only

solution that gives the man a chance of life and of happiness. Morally,

to do nothing would be bad, to kill them would be bad. There are no good

options, and the AS have decided to stick with the best of them. To

liken it to the Final Solution is absurd - the AS try to save lives,

both those of the channelers and of other people. They don't hunt people

because they were born different, they deal with a legitimate problem.

 

I agree the Aes Sedai do not prosecute the male channelers for being different, and they have to do something, they also do not treat their male channeler prisoners badly once they get to the Tower though some Reds do on the way. But I completely disagree that it is the best solution. The point is most gentled male channelers do not survive, gentling is as much killing them as stabbing them with a sword would be, it is just that it is also extremely painful and then lead to a long, drawn out, miserable death. If we ignore the supernatural elements and look at that kind of massive depression in the real world, yes I would rather have been taken out back and shot than suffer that, in fact I would happily have been taken out back and shot, and then we add the problems with loosing their magickal abilities, the longing to channel and the fact that a piece of their soul have been cut out, there is no way to say that is better than death. Yes a very few manages to survive and have decent lives, but that is very, very few and usually only with after care that is just not given to most, so no male channelers do not realistically have much of a chance for life an happiness if they are gentled, they will suffer horribly for a few years and then die. What would have been mercy was if the men was given a choice between gentling and death, and if the former was chosen that they where given proper care afterwards to increase their chances of survival. Just gentling them is worse than death, though I agree that many Aes Sedai probably have convinced themselves that it is the best solution even if they themselves would have chosen death rather than be stilled.

The idea that gentling someone is as good as killing them is not supported. As for the option of death, what makes you so sure they don't have that option? What makes you so sure anyone would take it?

 

These men will go insane without intervention. Most people probably

wouldn't opt for death, nor would they be willing to go through with

their own suicide (people can be very attached to their lives, I've

found). So murder and gentling are the only solutions, unless you

consider letting people go insane and doing nothing to help to be a

solution. Why is death better than life?

 

Normally death is not better than life, but there are some instances where it are. Let us go to our real world again. I would rather die then have Alzheimer for example and slowly loose everything that makes me into me, there are fates worse than death. Now for example the kind of depression that severing gives, that is a fate worse than death, especially when it normally can not be cured. When you look at Logain at the end of that journey, he would eat if someone pushed food into his mouth, he would walk if someone pushed him and otherwise just stare into nothing. Well it is possible to get that depressed, and it is horrible, far worse than physical pain, and if it is most likely incurable that is not living and yes death would be far, far better than such a state.

And yet there was an improvement in Logain's condition before he was Healed. It's not a steady decline, it's not like it only ever gets worse. You're completely misrepresenting the condition.

[Hagazussa]

Any chance of a quote on the "cutting off part of someone's soul" line you keep trotting out?

 

Jordan have said that the ability to channel is a matter of the soul. I do not remember the quote here and now but it is mentioned several times on this forum, usually in threads discussing things like if genetics really have anything to do with the number of channelers and so on and channelers in other ages, it should not be to hard to find. I can look it up but I do not have the time to do so right now.

 

And funnily enough, leaving someone to die of horrible depression sounds like exactly the sort of help I tend to give.

 

Then may I advice you to change the sort of help you give.

 

Killing the men doesn't help anyone - gentling stops them going mad,

which is helpful, and leaves open the possibility of recovering and

leading a rich, full life. It's not some sort of automatic death

sentence.

 

Shooting someone in the head is not an automatic death sentence, many have survived it, that do not make it a good thing to do, or make it any less of a thing that will most likely lead to death, we have the same here only that the most likely lead to death is also followed with horrible pain and horrible depression so the person in question will most likely suffer horribly for a few years and then die, that they have a very small chance of survival do not make that better.

 

Making up statistics, I see. That tends not to convince me. Also, the

pain from severing doesn't last forever. We've no indication from

Siuan's POV, for example, that she continues to be in unbearable agony.

 

First of all why are you so hostile, we are discussing something in a fiction book, even if we disagree strongly on one point we should be able to do that without taking jabs at one another. Now I have never said that someone severed continue to suffer pain for long, however it is a factor in the matter. Look at it this way, you are told that you have an horrible illness, now left untreated you will die however there is a treatment, most likely it will have you suffer allot of mental anguish and then die anyway, but there is a small chance that you will manage to survive if you have the treatment, would you not then consider it a factor to play into your decision to have that treatment or not if it was also horribly painful. Now as for statistics, you are right we do not know the exact numbers, all we know is that most everyone in the WoT world consider severing to be an death sentence, and that it is mentioned that very few survive for long. Saying 99 percent the way I say it means, almost certainly sure it do not mean a claim that this is the accurate statistic. It is like saying what a day I must have had a hundred guests in my cafe today without that meaning that you have actually counted them all, it could be 101 and it could be 83, it just means I had allot of people in my cafe today just as 99 percent means most this happen to die, it do not mean yes we have 99,3 percent I have done the math.

 

So a valid analogy would be having to carry out an amputation without

anaesthesia in order to save a patients life - painful, certainly, but

ultimately better to go through the pain and survive than just to die.

And yes, we see Logain has good days and bad days (that's depression for

you - some times are worse than others), and yes, it is bad to live

through. But it is still better to live through it than just to die.

It's worth living for the good days, the bad days don't cancel that out.

 

No a valid analogy would be if you are sick with cancer so you will most likely die anyway, are you going to go through and an extremely painfilled operation on the small chance that you will be able to survive? Now yes personally I would, but not everyone would make that choice. Now yes there are times we see Logain when he is better, he manages to function to some degree, but my point is just it should be up to the male channeler in question if they is willing to go though the hell of the bad days to get the few good days. Now if we go to our real world, if you ask someone with a serious deep depression if they would want to live for the few bad days if they had hardly any chance of actually eventually get permanently better, a fair number will say no. I know for I live with someone with serious depression and I can honestly say that it is worse than any affliction of the body I can think of. And yes in our real world the good balances out the bad for there are drugs and cures and treatments, a depression in a supernatural world, caused by an supernatural affliction with very little hope of getting better, no I would not say the good would balance out the bad, not in a situation like that.

 

When Logain has a purpose, something to work towards, he is better. They

need something to fill the void in their lives. When they have that

they function better. It is not an insurmountable condition, and it is

not a automatically case of a short miserable life followed by death. I

see nothing to conclude that it truly is a fate worse than death -

unpleasant, certainly, but not worse than death by any means.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on that. For the few who manages to survive living with severing is probably better, but for the rest it is not. But yes they can manage to find something to live for, I have never denied that. However that is why I think male channelers should be given the choice between gentling and death as no one really have the right to decide if such a life is preferable to death for another person.

 

The idea that gentling someone is as good as killing them is not

supported. As for the option of death, what makes you so sure they don't

have that option? What makes you so sure anyone would take it?

 

I am pretty sure it would have been mentioned in the books if such a choice was given, and it is specifically mentioned that Aes Sedai do not not kill male channelers unless it is the last possible option to prevent them from escaping. Also why I am pretty sure many would take the option of death would be the reaction of those who have been severed who tend to just wish to die, and the fact that it is stated black on white several places that most channelers consider it a fate worse than death, so even if they are right or not about that assumption many would probably choose death just out of pure fear.

 

And yet there was an improvement in Logain's condition before he was

Healed. It's not a steady decline, it's not like it only ever gets

worse. You're completely misrepresenting the condition.

 

I am not misrepresenting the condition. I have never claimed it is not possible to get better, please read my posts again I am saying most do not get better. Logain before he was healed had two things keeping him going, he was finally on the fast track for revenge and he had hope, or at least that seam likely that he did, that Nyn would be able to heal him. Yes he got better, it is possible for a severed channeler to get better, that do not mean that it is likely to happen, and that is what I have been saying, for some individuals clearly they have decent lives after severing and death would not be better, but for the wast majority they live short, miserable existences and then die and a quick death would have been far more merciful.

[Mr Ares]

 

Any chance of a quote on the "cutting off part of someone's soul" line you keep trotting out?

 

Jordan have said that the ability to channel is a matter of the soul. I do not remember the quote here and now but it is mentioned several times on this forum, usually in threads discussing things like if genetics really have anything to do with the number of channelers and so on and channelers in other ages, it should not be to hard to find. I can look it up but I do not have the time to do so right now.

Channeling is a matter of genetics and the soul. That doesn't mean that you are cutting off a part of a soul when you sever someone.

 

And funnily enough, leaving someone to die of horrible depression sounds like exactly the sort of help I tend to give.

 

Then may I advice you to change the sort of help you give.

I think my way is best. Tough love. You'll never get people to make the best of themselves by mollycoddling them. If you can survive my tuition, you can survive damn near anything the world will throw at you.

 

Killing the men doesn't help anyone - gentling stops them going mad,

which is helpful, and leaves open the possibility of recovering and

leading a rich, full life. It's not some sort of automatic death

sentence.

 

Shooting someone in the head is not an automatic death sentence, many have survived it, that do not make it a good thing to do, or make it any less of a thing that will most likely lead to death, we have the same here only that the most likely lead to death is also followed with horrible pain and horrible depression so the person in question will most likely suffer horribly for a few years and then die, that they have a very small chance of survival do not make that better.

Of course, we are talking about gentling to avoid the taint - on other words, the equivalent of shooting someone in the head as that represents their only hope of survival, however slim.

 

Making up statistics, I see. That tends not to convince me. Also, the

pain from severing doesn't last forever. We've no indication from

Siuan's POV, for example, that she continues to be in unbearable agony.

 

First of all why are you so hostile, we are discussing something in a fiction book, even if we disagree strongly on one point we should be able to do that without taking jabs at one another.

Hostile? For me, this counts as friendly.

Now I have never said that someone severed continue to suffer pain for long, however it is a factor in the matter. Look at it this way, you are told that you have an horrible illness, now left untreated you will die however there is a treatment, most likely it will have you suffer allot of mental anguish and then die anyway, but there is a small chance that you will manage to survive if you have the treatment, would you not then consider it a factor to play into your decision to have that treatment or not if it was also horribly painful.

No.

Now as for statistics, you are right we do not know the exact numbers, all we know is that most everyone in the WoT world consider severing to be an death sentence, and that it is mentioned that very few survive for long. Saying 99 percent the way I say it means, almost certainly sure it do not mean a claim that this is the accurate statistic. It is like saying what a day I must have had a hundred guests in my cafe today without that meaning that you have actually counted them all, it could be 101 and it could be 83, it just means I had allot of people in my cafe today just as 99 percent means most this happen to die, it do not mean yes we have 99,3 percent I have done the math.

In other words, you make up numbers to add weight to your point. As for the people who consider it a death sentence, bear in mind that they are the same people who make several unwarranted assumptions and are known to avoid those who have been cut off from the Source because it makes them uncomfortable. In other words, we have nothing reliable to say how much of a death sentence it truly is. Now, look at those who have been stilled, gentled or burnt out over the course of or prior to the series. None are killed by the condition - they are either executed shortly afterwards, or they are able to recover to the extent they become functional and live happy, healthy and normal lives. Logain, Siuan, Leane, Setalle, Ronaille, Irgain and Sashalle all put the lie to your desire to characterise the condition as years of misery until you die. Precisely no-one supports it. That's not "most people don't get better". It's "most people might have bad days, but are capable of recovering". We see no-one who fails to recover. We have no reliable information about what the recovery rate is, only anecdotal statements from unreliable sources.

 

So a valid analogy would be having to carry out an amputation without

anaesthesia in order to save a patients life - painful, certainly, but

ultimately better to go through the pain and survive than just to die.

And yes, we see Logain has good days and bad days (that's depression for

you - some times are worse than others), and yes, it is bad to live

through. But it is still better to live through it than just to die.

It's worth living for the good days, the bad days don't cancel that out.

 

No a valid analogy would be if you are sick with cancer so you will most likely die anyway, are you going to go through and an extremely painfilled operation on the small chance that you will be able to survive? Now yes personally I would, but not everyone would make that choice. Now yes there are times we see Logain when he is better, he manages to function to some degree, but my point is just it should be up to the male channeler in question if they is willing to go though the hell of the bad days to get the few good days. Now if we go to our real world, if you ask someone with a serious deep depression if they would want to live for the few bad days if they had hardly any chance of actually eventually get permanently better, a fair number will say no. I know for I live with someone with serious depression and I can honestly say that it is worse than any affliction of the body I can think of. And yes in our real world the good balances out the bad for there are drugs and cures and treatments, a depression in a supernatural world, caused by an supernatural affliction with very little hope of getting better, no I would not say the good would balance out the bad, not in a situation like that.

You said my analogy was flawed, but didn't actually give a reason. Poor form, that. And it is up to the male channeler - they can commit suicide if they don't want to live. They are not being denied that choice. Same is true of depressed people in reality. If they truly want to die, they'll take action to achieve that end. Most don't.

 

When Logain has a purpose, something to work towards, he is better. They

need something to fill the void in their lives. When they have that

they function better. It is not an insurmountable condition, and it is

not a automatically case of a short miserable life followed by death. I

see nothing to conclude that it truly is a fate worse than death -

unpleasant, certainly, but not worse than death by any means.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on that. For the few who manages to survive living with severing is probably better, but for the rest it is not. But yes they can manage to find something to live for, I have never denied that. However that is why I think male channelers should be given the choice between gentling and death as no one really have the right to decide if such a life is preferable to death for another person.

 

>The idea that gentling someone is as good as killing them is not

supported. As for the option of death, what makes you so sure they don't

have that option? What makes you so sure anyone would take it?

 

I am pretty sure it would have been mentioned in the books if such a choice was given, and it is specifically mentioned that Aes Sedai do not not kill male channelers unless it is the last possible option to prevent them from escaping. Also why I am pretty sure many would take the option of death would be the reaction of those who have been severed who tend to just wish to die, and the fact that it is stated black on white several places that most channelers consider it a fate worse than death, so even if they are right or not about that assumption many would probably choose death just out of pure fear.

It is mentioned that male channelers are taken back to the WT to be gentled, and that there are correct procedures to follow - an AS who killed someone in the field would be guilty of murder. They might well have procedures in place for those rare men who do profess to want to die rather than be gentled, but given how uncommon it would be thee's no reason to assume that it would be mentioned if it existed. You're basing your viewpoint on a lack of evidence. Also, the channelers who consider it a fate worse than death are the same channelers who are convinced that those women who are put out of the WT are so disappointed in not being AS that they eventually drift away from the Kin and stop channeling altogether. To what extent is the "fate worse than death" no longer channeling, and to what extent is it no longer being AS? Again, I must highlight the absence of reliable evidence as to survival figures and how well people recover. It's filtered through the minds of people who consider their ability to channel a significant part of their identity, and therefore that must be taken into account when considering the effect it would have on men who don't even realise they are channelers.

 

And yet there was an improvement in Logain's condition before he was

Healed. It's not a steady decline, it's not like it only ever gets

worse. You're completely misrepresenting the condition.

 

I am not misrepresenting the condition. I have never claimed it is not possible to get better, please read my posts again I am saying most do not get better. Logain before he was healed had two things keeping him going, he was finally on the fast track for revenge and he had hope, or at least that seam likely that he did, that Nyn would be able to heal him. Yes he got better, it is possible for a severed channeler to get better, that do not mean that it is likely to happen, and that is what I have been saying, for some individuals clearly they have decent lives after severing and death would not be better, but for the wast majority they live short, miserable existences and then die and a quick death would have been far more merciful.

Sweetie, for future reference don't try the "read my posts again" thing on me, I'm well aware of what you've said and I didn't misrepresent you. You persist in claiming that being gentled amounts to having part of your soul cut off (unsupported), horrible pain, and years of depression eventually ending in death from which recovery is almost unheard of (claimed, but the actual evidence is thin). In other words, you claim that the condition is far worse than a critical examination of the evidence would lead one to conclude. You should be careful about accepting what people say at face value- even if they are not trying to deceive you, they might be misinformed. How reliable are the sources in question? Not very, in this case. All the evidence we have indicates that with proper care, recovery is common, but that AS are not best equipped to provide the proper care.

[szilard]

What would you do if you were a male channeler in WoT

 

An Empty Road

 

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning.

There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

 

Born below the ever cloud-capped peaks that gave the mountains their name, the wind blew east, out across the Sand Hills, once the shore of a great ocean, before the Breaking of the World. Down it flailed into the Two Rivers, into the tangled forest called the Westwood, and beat at two men walking with a cart and horse down the rock-strewn track called the Quarry Road. For all that spring should have come a good month since, the wind carried an icy chill as if it would rather bear snow.

 

Gusts plastered Szilard’s cloak to his back, whipped the earth-colored wool around his legs, then streamed it out behind him. He wished his coat were heavier, or that he had worn an extra shirt. Half the time when he tried to tug the cloak back around him it caught on the quiver swinging at his hip. Trying to hold the cloak one-handed did not do much good anyway; he had his bow in the other, an arrow nocked and ready to draw.

 

[Hagazussa]

Channeling is a matter of genetics and the soul. That doesn't mean that

you are cutting off a part of a soul when you sever someone.

 

Something that is an ability given because of the nature of the soul, which are then quite literary cut out, that would leave it to be a fair assumption that the soul gets cut, though off course the damage do heal between incarnation. Channeling is an ability given due to a spiritual condition of the soul, when that condition is then cut of that is cutting off a peace of the soul.

 

I think my way is best. Tough love. You'll never get people to make the

best of themselves by mollycoddling them. If you can survive my tuition,

you can survive damn near anything the world will throw at you.

 

I think respect and trying to see others situation though their eyes is a better solution to help anyone, and also to respect that others might have other wishes for their lives then oneself.

 

Of course, we are talking about gentling to avoid the taint - on other

words, the equivalent of shooting someone in the head as that represents

their only hope of survival, however slim.

 

Well take lobotomy as an example instead. You have someone who is completely out of control. You are in the 1940's so you have no other options, either you do an operation that have a decent chance of giving someone a normal life afterwards, but who also stand a good chance of leaving them dead or a vegetable, is it the right to go in and destroy a piece of someone's brain against their consent if the patient will rather just stay locked up? You have the best of intentions, and if it works the outcome for the patient is allot better, but if you fail you leave your patient dead or in a horrible condition. That is the point here, not chances of survival, but whatever or not it is okey to force one's own idea that life is always better than death on someone else who think otherwise.

 

No.

 

Well good on you. I would be the same, I would take any medical procedure for even the smallest chance of life no matter how painful, but I know many who would not do that and I respect their wishes. I do not think anyone have the right to force life on others.

 

In other words, you make up numbers to add weight to your point.

 

No I did not. 99% is a well established idiom, as this link shows.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/99_percent

If someone say they where scared half to death it do not mean they actually thought they where in danger for their lives, or that they made a claim their life was in danger, it is a figure of speech.

 

As for the people who consider it a death sentence, bear in mind that

they are the same people who make several unwarranted assumptions and

are known to avoid those who have been cut off from the Source because

it makes them uncomfortable.

 

Yeah and that channelers are made so uncomfortable by seeing someone who have been severed that they do not dare go near them is an good indication for just how bad it is, it makes everyone else who could be put through it quiver just to think about it.

 

In other words, we have nothing reliable to say how much of a death

sentence it truly is. Now, look at those who have been stilled, gentled

or burnt out over the course of or prior to the series. None are killed

by the condition - they are either executed shortly afterwards, or they

are able to recover to the extent they become functional and live happy,

healthy and normal lives. Logain, Siuan, Leane, Setalle, Ronaille,

Irgain and Sashalle all put the lie to your desire to characterise the

condition as years of misery until you die.

 

First off all records are kept in the WoT world and it is a generally accepted fact that most severed channelers die, it is not something someone have just made up, everyone, from every area that have heard of it do have that assumption. Now To the characters you mention that are supposed to prove that I am wrong according to you. Logain is in terrible condition for most of the time he is gentled, he do manage to perk up for short periods but generally lead a miserable existence until he is healed. Siuan and Leane manage to keep going because if they do not the world will end and that is pretty powerful motivation. Now also Siuan also tell Nyn after she is healed that she had been given back her life, that while she had tried to keep her spirit up being stilled was not living. Also Siuan and Leane is left severed for only a few months before they are healed, we do not know how long they would have held up in the long run. Now as for the three that Rand stills, the Aiel care for them and try to get them to survive, still it is mentioned that Irgain, I think it was her, it could have been one of the other two, wished she was dead. yes they worked when told to do something they did it, that do not mean they where happy. That leaves Setalle as the only one who have managed to get over loosing her ability and have a happy life despite of it long time.

 

Precisely no-one supports it. That's not "most people don't get better".

It's "most people might have bad days, but are capable of recovering".

We see no-one who fails to recover. We have no reliable information

about what the recovery rate is, only anecdotal statements from

unreliable sources.

 

Well except everything that is written in the books which do support my view. What is not supported is the view that severing is no big deal, it just hurt a little and then people have bad days but can shrug it off. Nothing support that view. And yes of the severed characters exactly one recovers, the others manage to hang in there for a while, most of them a few short months and usually in rather bad condition. Your views are just not supported by what is in the books, which state black on white that yes most severed channelers die. And also if you want a source for the information that is not a in character point of view then look at Jordan's own introduction to the comics where it say the following

 

The are hunted down by the Aes Sedai and gentled, cut off forever from the One Power for the safety of the world. No man goes to this willingly. Even if they survive the hunt, they seldom survive long after gentling.

 

This is not the point of view of some character, this is Jordan saying black on white, few gentled men survive for long.

 

You said my analogy was flawed, but didn't actually give a reason. Poor

form, that. And it is up to the male channeler - they can commit suicide

if they don't want to live. They are not being denied that choice. Same

is true of depressed people in reality. If they truly want to die,

they'll take action to achieve that end. Most don't.

 

I thought it would be rather clear to everyone why I thought your analogy was flawed, you linked gentling to having to perform a very painful operation on someone and then have them be fine, while I said no it is more like having to perform a very painful operation on someone with a very, very small chance they be fine, there is a big difference there. Ah so it is okey to put someone through a horribly, painful thing that is so feared that everyone of their kind shudder when they hear the name of it if they can just kill themselves afterwards, I fail to see your logic here.

 

It is mentioned that male channelers are taken back to the WT to be

gentled, and that there are correct procedures to follow - an AS who

killed someone in the field would be guilty of murder. They might well

have procedures in place for those rare men who do profess to want to

die rather than be gentled, but given how uncommon it would be thee's no

reason to assume that it would be mentioned if it existed.

 

Here is where we disagree. I think it would be far more common for a male channeler to want a clean execution to gentling, even should your theory that severing is just something most shrug off and how horrible it is just being a hype that do not change the fact that most channelers fear it more than death as they think it is a fate worse than death, it do not even have to be true that it is for them to want to die rather than face something they fear that much.

 

You're basing your viewpoint on a lack of evidence.

 

No I am basing my view point on what is in the books and that if male channelers had been given the choice to die instead that would have been mentioned, everything indicate that they are not.

 

Also, the channelers who consider it a fate worse than death are the

same channelers who are convinced that those women who are put out of

the WT are so disappointed in not being AS that they eventually drift

away from the Kin and stop channeling altogether.

 

No one have made the assumption that anyone will stop channeling, the assumption have been made that they will only do so privately and not make a nuisance of themselves.

 

To what extent is the "fate worse than death" no longer channeling, and to what extent is it no longer being AS?

 

No one have claimed that not being an Aes Sedai is a fate worse than death so it is not longer being able to channel which is a fate worse than death.

 

gain, I must highlight the absence of reliable evidence as to survival

figures and how well people recover. It's filtered through the minds of

people who consider their ability to channel a significant part of their

identity, and therefore that must be taken into account when

considering the effect it would have on men who don't even realise they

are channelers.

 

 

Well the quote from the introduction to the graphic novels should settle the matter then, it is not just rumor, or assumption, channelers do not survive long after severing plain and simple, if they find something to live for they stand a chance if not, they die, it is there is black and white, or rather in white on black as that is the color scheme of the graphic novels.

 

Sweetie, for future reference don't try the "read my posts again" thing

on me, I'm well aware of what you've said and I didn't misrepresent you.

 

Again, we are discussing a supernatural affliction in a fantasy world, if you can not do this on civil terms then I have other things to do than to waste my time with you. I come to this forum to discuss the Wheel of Time in a friendly, polite way. It is fine if you disagree with me, I enjoy debating with those that disagree with me, that makes me consider my own views, however I have no interest in being a part of an augment so please do not turn this debate into a who is the better captain of Picard or Kirk screaming match, and when you speak to me do not call me sweetie like I was five years old. I respect that you disagree with me. I respect your opinion, I hope however that you can also respect mine.

 

You persist in claiming that being gentled amounts to having part of your soul cut off (unsupported),

 

It is not unsupported, gentling cut off a piece of someone's spiritual anatomy which they need to have to do a thing which is connected to the soul. The ability to channel is part of a person's soul, then it makes sense to assume their connection to the Source is as well.

 

horrible pain, and years of depression eventually ending in death from

which recovery is almost unheard of (claimed, but the actual evidence is

thin).

 

Everything in the books support what I claim. It state again and again, those severed loose the will to live and that only those who manage to find something to live for that they want more than channeling survive and that are rather few. Though yes with treatment like the one that Cadsuane give the odds are different, but for the average man gentled that is a death sentence. Also severing have been shown to be painful, though the pain is not necessarily physical so this is also supported.

 

In other words, you claim that the condition is far worse than a

critical examination of the evidence would lead one to conclude. You

should be careful about accepting what people say at face value- even if

they are not trying to deceive you, they might be misinformed.

 

Like the author of the books in question who have said black on white that very few male channelers survive? That is about a good a source of information about the setting as you can get.

 

How reliable are the sources in question? Not very, in this case. All

the evidence we have indicates that with proper care, recovery is

common, but that AS are not best equipped to provide the proper care.

 

 

Well first off all we have all the in character references, but if to take all of that as lies and misinformation then like I said Jordan himself say very few male channelers survive gentling. Also yes clearly with proper care the chances of survival go drastically up, but that do not count as proper care is not given. That is like saying, so sure no problem that I stabbed you in the leg in the middle of the Amazon, sure you will most likely get an infection and die out here, but if we where in a hospital in USA they could fix that infection right up. Sure if the situation was ideal and male channelers where given the care they needed to survive my stance might be different on this, but they are not given that care, they are left to die of their depressions, and that I do strongly feel is a fate worse than death.

[Suttree]

Something that is an ability given because of the nature of the soul, which are then quite literary cut out, that would leave it to be a fair assumption that the soul gets cut, though off course the damage do heal between incarnation. Channeling is an ability given due to a spiritual condition of the soul, when that condition is then cut of that is cutting off a peace of the soul.

 

But it's not cut out. We know this. The active connection to the source is cut, and it can be reconnected byu virtue of healing. You may have an argument for someone who is burned out but certainly not for someone who is severed.

 

First off all records are kept in the WoT world and it is a generally accepted fact that most severed channelers die, it is not something someone have just made up, everyone, from every area that have heard of it do have that assumption.

There is no indication that they keep records of this sort. In fact when it happens to women it's assumed they crawl off and die. They specifically do not follow up and study it because it makes them so uncomfortable.

 

Well except everything that is written in the books which do support my view.

Actually no it doesn't. Also instead of just generalizing it might help if you provided quotes showing why you think the above is true.

 

What is not supported is the view that severing is no big deal, it just hurt a little and then people have bad days but can shrug it off. Nothing support that view.

Straw man. Mr Ares never said or implied anything of the sort.

 

Like the author of the books in question who have said black on white that very few male channelers survive?

The comics are not canon and do not count as an accepted source of information.

[Hagazussa]

But it's not cut out. We know this. The active connection to the source

is cut, and it can be reconnected byu virtue of healing. You may have an

argument for someone who is burned out but certainly not for someone

who is severed.

 

It is not damaged permanently no but it is still cut into. It might be because I am religious that I think even temporary damage to someone's soul have a certain ick factor. But yes it is not permanently cut out that is true, but you could say that it is temporary cut put.

 

There is no indication that they keep records of this sort. In fact when

it happens to women it's assumed they crawl off and die. They

specifically do not follow up and study it because it makes them so

uncomfortable.

 

Even if they did not keep record to assume that most who is severed go on to live happy lives is not supported by anything in the fiction what so ever.

 

Actually no it doesn't. Also instead of just generalizing it might help

if you provided quotes showing why you think the above is true.

 

I can dig though fifteen books for snippets here and snippets there yes. I would have to settle for a few random quotes right now though as I do not have the time other than to thumb through the books a bit at the moment.

 

They almost always die soon after, men who have been gentled. They stop wanting to live. He remembered Thom Merrilin's words to well to face that.

 

That is from the Great Hunt and the Chapter is Friends and Enemies.

 

All that remained for him was the despair of the gentled, like a man who had been robbed of sight, and hearing and taste, wanting to die, waiting for the death and inevitably came to such men in a few years.  

 

And that is from The Shadow Rising and the chapter is Deceptions.

 

Well he was not the first man to be caught and gentled, cut off from the Power so he could never channel again. They said men like that, whatever false Dragons or poor fools the Red Ajah took against, never lived long. It was said they gave up wanting to live.

 

This is from Fires of Heaven and the chapter is Fanning the Sparks,

 

Now I could go on and on with quotes like this but that will have to be later if you want more for right now my hubby is tapping his feet and is asking me if I am planning on staying on my computer all evening so I do not have the time to thumb through books and write up more of that at the moment.

 

Straw man. Mr Ares never said or implied anything of the sort.

 

It is a bit exaggerated from from what Mr Ares said to make a point but still basically exactly what he is saying.

 

The comics are not canon and do not count as an accepted source of information.

 

The comics no, but this is not from the comics themselves but from the foreword to the graphic novels and that foreword is written by Jordan himself and so that should count.