Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[BFG]

People over-value strength in the power. Time and again it's been proven undecisive, but it's always the first-held position.

 

I always though Nyn was more dextrous, since every time elayne or egwene comments on her healing they seem to lose track of what she is doing type thing.

 

Mmm. Nynaeve's skill with heaing is stated again and again, but by the same note so too is her lack of skill with anything else. She mimics swiftly, and thus likely would have the dexterity if she tried to train it, but largely she has disdained that--again a fact stated again and again. She can repeat a weave without trying, and her skill with Healing is exemplary, but her general skill in weaving the Power is poor and under-developed.

 

Actually post test I'd disagree about the general skill level. We know from Moiraine how hard the test is, and we know that Nyn's test was harder then most - a lot of that is due to the emotional nature of the test,

 

ToM

She maintained her steady pace, reaching the six-pointed star as the Trollocs drew close. She began the weave she was required to make and split off a thread of Fire. She sent an enormous spray of heat away from her, burning the nearest of the beasts to cinders.

 

Jaw set against her fear, she crafted the rest of the required weave. She split her weaves a half-dozen times and finished the complicated thing in mere moments.

 

She set it in place, then nodded. There. Other Trollocs were coming, and she burned them away with a wave of her hand.

 

"Well," Saerin said from nearby, "seems that shell live. Now, would someone please tell me what in the name of creation itself that was?" She sounded furious. "I've been a part of many a raising, even one where the woman didn't survive. But I have never, in all of my days, seen a woman put through what this one just suffered."

 

Not to mention that Nyn has more experience of 1 on 1 duels. Also having gone through the test gives her experience of using different weaves to solve problems.

 

Neither Eg or Elayne want to take the test, Elayne is using her babies as an excuse, Eg is firm that being Amrylin makes her AS without needing the test. Obviously, given time they'd both pass it - but in studying for it Nyn will have learned a lot more of the normal weaves AS use.

 

 

EDIT: I think Kathleen has come up with the strongest argument for Eg winning - Nyn is incredibly loyal to her friends, she won't want to kill Eg, so unless she can shield her easily, she's likely to hesitate, giving Eg the advantage.

[OptimusPrime]

I voted Nynaeve. But sadly we all know if it came out to a fight Egwene would have to win

[Nightstrike]

I can't recall any situation where Egwene has done anything similar to what Nynaeve did with Moggy, or what Talaan and Nynaeve did. She's defeated weaker channelers, right, but are there any other examples?

 

ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …

[Luckers]

What? Talaan and Nynaeve stand in favour of my point--Talaan utilizes dexterity as opposed to brute strength and defeats Nynaeve. Furthermore their interaction is in no way similar to the strength on strength interaction of Nynaeve and Moghedien.

 

So yes, Egwene has never done anything similar to what Nynaeve did with Moghedien. Strength to strength shows no skill. She has, however, displayed dexterity, which was the way Talaan defeated Nynaeve.

 

Edit: To answer your edit: "ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …"

 

Yes, I'm sure the Spider could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing if she set her mind to it, and Nynaeve WAS the only sister who matched Moghedien strength for strength. What of it?

[BFG]

^except that Talaan has the same levels of strength as Nyn, it's not just that she's more dextrous, it's a combination of the 2.

[Nightstrike]

They were examples of people trying to shield each other. Nynaeve was to stop Talaan, and Moggy and Nynaeve tried to shield the other. Moggy and Nynaeve were about equal in strength, and so were Talaan and Nynaeve. Egwene is weaker, and I don't know when she's shielded anyone stronger than herself.

 

And this was from a time when Nynaeve hadn't reached her potential (but Eggy was close to hers):

ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …

[Luckers]

^except that Talaan has the same levels of strength as Nyn, it's not just that she's more dextrous, it's a combination of the 2.

 

Oh? Re-read that section. Where does Talaan's strength play into her victory?

 

Her strength allows her shield to work on Nynaeve despite the fact that she already holds the Source--something Egwene may not have been able to do--but placing that shield had nothing to do with strength. Replace it with a knife-like weave of air, or some fire, or anything deadly that doesn't require such strength to work and Talaan still defeats Nynaeve--strength irrespective.

[Suttree]

^except that Talaan has the same levels of strength as Nyn, it's not just that she's more dextrous, it's a combination of the 2.

 

Per the scene strength played little to no role in their duel. In fact Talaan schooled Nyn precisely because she was so dexterous and Nyn couldn't match her.

 

As for your point about the testing Eggy could do the 100 weaves in her sleep, he reasoning for not taking the test had nothing to do with thinking she might not pass. Also there is nothing to show that Nyn has gained in skill up from being "dismal" at anything else because she was able to memorize them.

[Nightstrike]

Why are you assuming strength didn't matter on that occasion?

[Luckers]

Why are you assuming strength didn't matter on that occasion?

 

Because we see it. Talaan won because she spun her weaves around Nynaeve's in a cunning way that Nynaeve did not expect.

[Nightstrike]

Nothing says she would have done so if she'd been Egwene's strength, nothing says Egwene could have done the same if she'd been Talaan's strength, and this is assuming they just tried to shield each other.

[Nightstrike]

And this was from a time when Nynaeve hadn't reached her potential (but Eggy was close to hers):

ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …

Why discount this?

[Suttree]

Why are you assuming strength didn't matter on that occasion?

 

Because that is how the fight plays out, Nyn couldn't match her dexterity and lost badly.

 

WH

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant. Abruptly six weaves of Air shot out from the girl, darting toward Nynaeve, and Nynaeve quickly sliced them with Fire. The severed flows snapped back into Talaan, jolting her visibly, but before they had vanished properly, six more appeared, faster than before. Nynaeve slashed. And gaped as Talaan's weave of Spirit flickered around hers and wrapped around her, cutting off saidar. She was shielded! Talaan had shielded her! For the final indignity, flows of Air pinioned her arms and legs tightly, crushing her skirts.

 

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

 

 

And this was from a time when Nynaeve hadn't reached her potential (but Eggy was close to hers):

ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …

Why discount this?

 

It has no bearing on the discussion as Luckers already addressed above.

[Luckers]

Nothing says she would have done so if she'd been Egwene's strength, nothing says Egwene could have done the same if she'd been Talaan's strength, and this is assuming they just tried to shield each other.

 

You're right. Nothing says that--because strength played no role in her doing that. She did that because she was skilled and dextrous. Just as Egwene has been cited to be skilled and dextrous.

 

As I said, you let yourself run away with the value of strength.

[Luckers]

And this was from a time when Nynaeve hadn't reached her potential (but Eggy was close to hers):

ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …

Why discount this?

 

I don't. I count it for precisely its value. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing and Nynaeve is the only sister who could match a Forsaken alone.

[Nightstrike]

Nothing says she would have done so if she'd been Egwene's strength, nothing says Egwene could have done the same if she'd been Talaan's strength, and this is assuming they just tried to shield each other.

You're right. Nothing says that--because strength played no role in her doing that. She did that because she was skilled and dextrous. Just as Egwene has been cited to be skilled and dextrous.

Bold: That's what you say, but the text says nothing of the kind.

[Luckers]

The text says precisely that. Suttree quoted it for you.

[Suttree]

That's what you say, but the text says nothing of the kind.

 

Ermmm what? Read the quotes I posted. It says exactly that.

 

Edit: Lol for Luckers and I practically mirror posting...

[Nightstrike]

There's also the example of Rand handling Eggy and Elayne, and what they thought about it after. Strength is more important in a fight, but Talents and dexterity matter for other things.

[Luckers]

Well that's as close to a concession as Nightstrike gets. I'll take that and run. G'night guys.

[BFG]

^except that Talaan has the same levels of strength as Nyn, it's not just that she's more dextrous, it's a combination of the 2.

 

Oh? Re-read that section. Where does Talaan's strength play into her victory?

 

Her strength allows her shield to work on Nynaeve despite the fact that she already holds the Source--something Egwene may not have been able to do--but placing that shield had nothing to do with strength. Replace it with a knife-like weave of air, or some fire, or anything deadly that doesn't require such strength to work and Talaan still defeats Nynaeve--strength irrespective.

^except that Talaan has the same levels of strength as Nyn, it's not just that she's more dextrous, it's a combination of the 2.

 

Per the scene strength played little to no role in their duel.

 

As for your point about the testing Eggy could do the 100 weaves in her sleep, he reasoning for not taking the test had nothing to do with thinking she might not pass. Also there is nothing to show that Nyn has gained in skill up from being "dismal" at anything else because she was able to memorize them.

 

The section says that if 2 channelers of equal strength battle then the one that's more dextrous wins. If we're talking about different weaves then Nyn now has experience that Eg doesn't in preventing them, through the test.

 

If Nyn was still dismal at everything else she wouldn't have passed the test - the test is designed to challenge the person taking the test. The quote I provided shows that her weaving has improved in speed and 'nimbleness' in things other than healing.

 

I also doubt very much that Eg could pass the test in her sleep -

 

"What worries me is the testing," Egwene said. "The Sitters have begun to argue that—while it was all right to raise you and the others in exile—you should still have to go through the testing, now that the White Tower is reunified. They make very good arguments. Perhaps I can argue that your difficult challenges recently should earn you an exemption. We don't have time to teach you two all of the weaves you'd need."

 

Elayne nodded. Nynaeve shrugged. "I'll do the testing. If I'm going to come back, then I might as well do this properly."

 

Egwene blinked in surprise. "Nynaeve, these are very complex weaves. I haven't had time to memorize all of them; I swear that many are needlessly ornate simply to be difficult." Egwene had no intention of going through the testing herself, and didn't need to. The law was specific. By being made Amyrlin, she had become Aes Sedai. Things weren't as clear in regards to Nynaeve and the others that Egwene had raised.

 

Nynaeve shrugged again. "The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad. I could show them to you right here, if you wanted me to."

 

To me this seems clear that Nyn struggles because they make the test so hard (also quoted previously) and because of the emotional impact. Eg hasn't learned the weaves, thinks they're complex - if she learned them, then yes she could pass - but she hasn't (and even if she had she couldn't do them in her sleep). In learning them, Nyn has now had more training than Eg.

 

I'm not saying that dexterity is unimportant - their's clearly a balance between power and dexterity, where greater dexterity can sort of be an equivalent of power. But Nyn is a lot stronger, and I'm not sure their's evidence yet that Eg's that much more dextrous than Nyn (given Eg has spent a lot of her training time in TAR or in politics while Nyn has spent it improving her weaving).

[Nightstrike]

WH

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant. Abruptly six weaves of Air shot out from the girl, darting toward Nynaeve, and Nynaeve quickly sliced them with Fire. The severed flows snapped back into Talaan, jolting her visibly, but before they had vanished properly, six more appeared, faster than before. Nynaeve slashed. And gaped as Talaan's weave of Spirit flickered around hers and wrapped around her, cutting off saidar. She was shielded! Talaan had shielded her! For the final indignity, flows of Air pinioned her arms and legs tightly, crushing her skirts.

Who says there would be a next time after the first if one is much stronger?

 

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

Who says a huge blow wouldn't shield someone much weaker at the first attempt?

[Suttree]

I'm not saying that dexterity is unimportant - their's clearly a balance between power and dexterity, where greater dexterity can sort of be an equivalent of power. But Nyn is a lot stronger, and I'm not sure their's evidence yet that Eg's that much more dextrous than Nyn (given Eg has spent a lot of her training time in TAR or in politics while Nyn has spent it improving her weaving).

 

There is a ton of evidence, her dexterity is mentioned many times in addition to how much more she can split her flows. Eggy is at least(with evidence probably more) dexterous than Nyn is stronger. We also see how quickly Eggy learns compared to other people. She could do it with minimal training no worries. Further the point holds about Nyn, memorizing those flows doesn't maker her all of a sudden not "dismal" at other things. It just means she memorized those flows and has awesome will power to endure the test which we already know.

 

@Nightstrike you are seriously just grasping now mate. Give over...

[Nightstrike]

There's no evidence Egwene can defeat someone much stronger than herself.

 

There is a tonne of evidence, but not for the things you propose. You suggest something, you prove it. You didn't, but I proved strength does matter. So, that much for grasping.

[Suttree]

There is a tonne of evidence, but not for the things you propose. You suggest something, you prove it. You didn't, but I proved strength does matter. So, that much for grasping.

 

Lol what are you on about now? Go back and read the debate, you were soundly refuted time and again. The second Talaan learned how to dual she schooled Nyn precisely because she was more dexterous. I have no idea why you keep bringing up the ACoS quote or made that last post speculating about strength when Nyn and Talaan duel. Both ideas are ludicrous and are false in regards to the discussion.