Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talaan was doing this for the first time, once she got the hang of it she absolutley spanked Nyn and its a perfect example of Nyn not having dexterity. Those are the pertinent points. She may have been tired what of it? She was facing someone who has very little to no training.

Sorry, but wasn't Talaan in the circle to use the Bowl? That kind of implies she has a good amount of power, which you only get by using the power. Presumably in training.

?

 

What are you referring to? She was learning to duel/shield for the first time. Not sure what being in a circle when someone else is using your power and you are not guiding the flows has to do with any of it?

Her having sufficient power to participate in the circle for the Bowl indicates she doesn't have 'very little or no training'. It implies she has had plenty of training, rather. Possibly more than Nynaeve, given Nynaeve's lack of official training for much of her channelling career.

Ok you have totally lost me at this point. There is zero correlation between inclusion in the circle and training. The only reason she was included was her strength. One can be naturally strong without years of training. It doesn't help your cause in the slightest here.

 

To be clear no one has ever said Talaan didn't have some experience training with the power and we know she is strong. What we do know for fact is Talaan had zero training in shielding/dueling. That is made clear in the text and yet once she practices for a short time it is readily apparent how terrible Nyn's dexterity is in this arena. That is further highlighted by numerous other times in text where it is said she had a very rough touch outside of healing.

 

Exactly. Talaan had all sorts of training with the weather for several years. But the Windfinders didn't even know how to shield before this session, so I'm at a total loss as to how avernite can claim she's practiced this before.

[avernite]

Well... it seems taking only one part of the sentence was not useful there.... surprisingly it seems the damn windfinders REALLY didn't know shielding :S

 

How did they survive with possibly mad channelers?

[Nightstrike]

The situation was that they had been practicing for a long time, and the older ones wouldn't stop until she'd succeeded. If you try a hundred times, and succeeds once, then it's not certain that you'll succeed the one hundred and first time. Nynaeve is unlikely to have taken it as seriously as Talaan did, as evidenced by her begging Nynaeve to take her to Tar Valon.

[fionwe1987]

The situation was that they had been practicing for a long time, and the older ones wouldn't stop until she'd succeeded. If you try a hundred times, and succeeds once, then it's not certain that you'll succeed the one hundred and first time. Nynaeve is unlikely to have taken it as seriously as Talaan did, as evidenced by her begging Nynaeve to take her to Tar Valon.

You're getting increasingly imaginative and desperate in your attempts at deflecting this. I take it as a sign that we've done our job proving the point.

[Nightstrike]

Hah, in your t'a'r dreams. What I said makes perfect sense.

 

The situation was that they had been practicing for a long time, and the older ones wouldn't stop until she'd succeeded. If you try a hundred times, and succeeds once, then it's not certain that you'll succeed the one hundred and first time. Nynaeve is unlikely to have taken it as seriously as Talaan did, as evidenced by her begging Nynaeve to take her to Tar Valon.

[Suttree]

Hah, in your t'a'r dreams. What I said makes perfect sense.

 

The situation was that they had been practicing for a long time, and the older ones wouldn't stop until she'd succeeded. If you try a hundred times, and succeeds once, then it's not certain that you'll succeed the one hundred and first time. Nynaeve is unlikely to have taken it as seriously as Talaan did, as evidenced by her begging Nynaeve to take her to Tar Valon.

 

 

It's actually quite clear. You have tried a number of different ways to discredit this point since it was first brought up, they have all been shot down and this last one is perhaps the most feeble. Talaan clearly picked this up fast and was schooling Nyn once she got the hang of it. From Nyn's own point of view she was trying extremely hard.

[Nightstrike]

It's actually quite clear. You have tried a number of different ways to discredit this point since it was first brought up, they have all been shot down and this last one is perhaps the most feeble. Talaan clearly picked this up fast and was schooling Nyn once she got the hang of it. From Nyn's own point of view she was trying extremely hard.

No, I said earlier that Talaan is not Egwene (she's stronger, for one thing), and I stand by what I said. I did not try "a number of different things to discredit" any particular point, but this time I responded to what was said the previous page. It was incorrect, and I pointed it out. Talaan remains a different entitity from Egwene, and that still stands. Don't pretend I did something new to the same point because you've shot anything anywhere.

[Suttree]

 

It's actually quite clear. You have tried a number of different ways to discredit this point since it was first brought up, they have all been shot down and this last one is perhaps the most feeble. Talaan clearly picked this up fast and was schooling Nyn once she got the hang of it. From Nyn's own point of view she was trying extremely hard.

No, I said earlier that Talaan is not Egwene (she's stronger, for one thing), and I stand by what I said. I did not try "a number of different things to discredit" any particular point, but this time I responded to what was said the previous page. It was incorrect, and I pointed it out. Talaan remains a different entitity from Egwene, and that still stands. Don't pretend I did something new to the same point because you've shot anything anywhere.

 

Are you forgetting that at first you tried to argue dexterity had nothing to do with the win? Further what was said on the previous page was correct. Nyn was trying hard per her own inner thoughts and once Talaan learned the basics she started trouncing her. Nothing you try to fabricate will change that. Jeez...Luckers was absolutely correct about you refusing to ever give over no matter how much proof is presented.

[Nightstrike]

Are you forgetting that at first you tried to argue dexterity had nothing to do with the win? Further what was said on the previous page was correct. Nyn was trying hard per her own inner thoughts and once Talaan learned the basics she started trouncing her. Nothing you try to fabricate will change that. Jeez...Luckers was absolutely correct about you refusing to ever give over no matter how much proof is presented.

Quote me and comment on what I said instead of saying what I said. If you want to link points together, then quote them. Don't tell me what I've done, I won't have any of that.

[Suttree]

 

Are you forgetting that at first you tried to argue dexterity had nothing to do with the win? Further what was said on the previous page was correct. Nyn was trying hard per her own inner thoughts and once Talaan learned the basics she started trouncing her. Nothing you try to fabricate will change that. Jeez...Luckers was absolutely correct about you refusing to ever give over no matter how much proof is presented.

Quote me and comment on what I said instead of saying what I said. If you want to link points together, then quote them. Don't tell me what I've done, I won't have any of that.

 

Have a good afternoon Nightstrike...

 

@Fionwe

Sorry I didn't follow your advice. I suggest you take that course of action now as well.

[fionwe1987]

 

@Fionwe

Sorry I didn't follow your advice. I suggest you take that course of action now as well.

 

Already taken. :)

[Nightstrike]

Examples of what I actually said:

Both Eggy and Nynaeve can invert their weaves, and both have better training than from the sul'dam. Knowledge of weaves should be about equal. They probably don't under-/overestimate each other, either. Chances were pretty high Cyndane overestimated her chances (due to her being that much stronger at the time).

 

If they go for Balefire, then maybe the quickest would win. I don't know who is quicker out of Nynaeve and Egwene.

Eggy and Elayne thought maybe Nynaeve would have a chance against Rand, so strength matters.

 

The difference between Cyndane and Alivia wasn't dexterity. It was knowledge of weaves, knowledge of how to invert your weaves, and so on. Hadn't she inverted her weaves (which Alivia wasn't even aware was possible), then Cyndane would have been dead.

WH

 

 

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant. Abruptly six weaves of Air shot out from the girl, darting toward Nynaeve, and Nynaeve quickly sliced them with Fire. The severed flows snapped back into Talaan, jolting her visibly, but before they had vanished properly, six more appeared, faster than before. Nynaeve slashed. And gaped as Talaan's weave of Spirit flickered around hers and wrapped around her, cutting off saidar. She was shielded! Talaan had shielded her! For the final indignity, flows of Air pinioned her arms and legs tightly, crushing her skirts.

Who says there would be a next time after the first if one is much stronger?

 

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

Who says a huge blow wouldn't shield someone much weaker at the first attempt?

[Emily_Sedai]

I don't really see Nyn's duels against Tal to be all that relevant... I guess I don't view her two victories as a matter of dexterity, but rather a victory of tactics. She started trying different tricks on Nyn's in my opinion, and managed to win the last two rounds of practice... Not too impressive after they'd been doing it for a time.

 

I personally always equated this scene with a time I was in a karate tournament when I was a kid. I faced an opponenent that would instantly attack you as soon as the round started. Literally, go was said, and then wham, I was hit. Well, in the next round, I heard go, took a step to the left, and promptly hit him as he went flying by. On the third round, I changed my tactics again knowing he'd be ready for my last ply. Lo and behold, he lost. That to me is exactly what Tal did... Tried a new tactic, got it to work, then changed it up when she knew Nyn's would be ready for it in the third round. To me, that doesn't show dexterity so much as just plain smarts.

 

I personally think that dexterity matters, but not so much as to counter Nyn's power advantage... To me, a direct attack by Nyn straight on would always win by a weaker channeler, as I'm not sure there is a counter to it. If there was, I think Mog would have used it during the 1v1 battle (ie, once they were locked in.)

[Nightstrike]

 

 

Sigh. I said it long ago but it has been fun Nightstrike. At this point though it has become blatantly clear that every time you are shown evidence you just ignore it. We have shown that she is more dexterous, we have shown how that matters in one on one duels such as the on with Talaan, we have shown how much greater her skill and knowledge of the op is, and lastly we have shown that Nyn is "dismal" at all else besides healing. Have a good day mate...

Talaan was Nynaeve's strength, and so she had plenty of chances to try her weaves. Egwene would be shielded right away. Moggy is also much stronger than Egwene, and would have no trouble shielding Egwene right away. Nynaeve is now stronger than Moggy, and more skilled than when she faced Moggy. Eggy has no badges to carry.

There I mentioned Egwene isn't Talaan. I probably mentioned it some other time as well.

[Suttree]

I don't really see Nyn's duels against Tal to be all that relevant... I guess I don't view her two victories as a matter of dexterity, but rather a victory of tactics. She started trying different tricks on Nyn's in my opinion, and managed to win the last two rounds of practice... Not too impressive after they'd been doing it for a time.

 

Yes tactics which consisted of using weaves in a dexterous manner which Nyn then tries to do as well and fails miserably. It says that flat out in the scene. We know this is because she has a rough touch outside of healing. This has been shown time and again throughout the series. Quotes have been provided in this thread as with the "linking" example.

 

A you say though that is the ultimate question. Can Egwene's dexterity, skills and knowledge win against Nyn's strength?

[Nightstrike]

It's truer every time you say it, so we're up to about 3 000 percent true now by my count.

[Emily_Sedai]

Twice. She was only beaten twice, by Tal changing her tactics twice. That again implies that Tal was just smarter than Nyn on that occasion, and improved her game faster. That to me doesnt indicate that she is better at shielding overall, just that her technique worked on two occasions. It may fail on the third, fourth, etc..

[fionwe1987]

Twice. She was only beaten twice, by Tal changing her tactics twice. That again implies that Tal was just smarter than Nyn on that occasion, and improved her game faster. That to me doesnt indicate that she is better at shielding overall, just that her technique worked on two occasions. It may fail on the third, fourth, etc..

Well, if you really want RJ to provide actual 1000 cases for you to do statistics on, you can dream on. If Nynaeve's lack of skill was inferred just from that scene, your argument would have some merit. But that is scene is just one among several, all pointing to Nynaeve having less skill and knowledge than is found among other Aes Sedai. Talaan beating her isn't some sole case of Nynaeve being shown as clumsy with her weaving. Heck, the Kin even call her Healing weaves clumsy, though with practise she seems to have overcome that by ToM.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, and Talaan wears a wig and (more) clothes when she's Egwene.

[Suttree]

Twice. She was only beaten twice, by Tal changing her tactics twice. That again implies that Tal was just smarter than Nyn on that occasion, and improved her game faster. That to me doesnt indicate that she is better at shielding overall, just that her technique worked on two occasions. It may fail on the third, fourth, etc..

So we are talking hypotheticals now? Why don't we start throwing out "what ifs" concerning what happens if Mogi used more than just her strength in that arm wrestle match with Nyn? Aside from the contradiction in your statement above concerning the implications of what Talaan did we can of course only go off what happened in text once Talaan had a basic understanding of how to duel. She used her dexterity and Nyn couldn't keep up. You can speculate however you want about what would have happened in the future but it doesnt help your cause in the slightest. Not to mention seeing Nyn not be able to follow along from a dexterity standpoint matches Cads quote, RJ's quote, and the numerous examples in text outside of healing where she has a very rough touch. Basically the Nyn side is totally fabricating major gains in areas outside of healing that have zero support in the series.

 

 

[Emily_Sedai]

Well, I addressed that particular example in my post, and still don't think you can conclude that dexterity won the day... How about this: when I played chess with my husband, I used the old 4 move win play... I won. Does that show I'm a better chess player? Probably not, because it was one example using a trick my husband hadn't seen before. It never worked again, and is now a useless tactic.

 

Tal might have won on these two occasions by changing tactics, but this doesn't show she's a better dueler, at least in my opinion.

[Emily_Sedai]

It's a contradiction to state that someone can be 'lucky' on two occasions and maybe not be better at something overall? Huh... Alrighty then.

[Suttree]

Well, I addressed that particular example in my post, and still don't think you can conclude that dexterity won the day... How about this: when I played chess with my husband, I used the old 4 move win play... I won. Does that show I'm a better chess player? Probably not, because it was one example using a trick my husband hadn't seen before. It never worked again, and is now a useless tactic.

 

Go back and read the quote. It explicitly says dexterity and it wasn't just one move.

[fuzz1717]

 

Tal might have won on these two occasions by changing tactics, but this doesn't show she's a better dueler, at least in my opinion.

 

Perhaps it doesn't, and we really don't have enough data to say one way or another. What we do know, however, is that Nynaeve had the experience and certainly has proven herself to be clever throughout the series (for example, during her test for the shawl, she uses a flowery weave as a weapon or something along those lines). So yes, maybe 2 wins out of 3 really isn't much to go on, but it does prove that Talaan was good enough to beat a more experienced and equally capable opponent with a bit of creativity.

 

Now, does this say Nynaeve is a bad duelist? Certainly not, it only implies that Talaan is exceptionally talented. Yet, we have had countless examples of Nynaeve's weavings being called "clumsy" or the like, so I think it is fair to say that while Nynaeve certainly has the raw strength over Egwene, Egwene has the dexterity, knowledge of destructive weaves, and control that Nynaeve lacks. 

 

EDIT: Well I obviously screwed up the quoting system here... ahhhh

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Winter's Heart, Chapter 11:

Nynaeve POV - Nynaeve is giving a lesson to Talaan while Zaida and six Windfinders look on. They are Senine din Ryal, Shielyn, Rainyn, Kurin, Caire and Tebreille. Nynaeve is glad that Renaile is not there. She is the worst. They sometimes use Merilille as the subject for their lessons. Vandene refuses to give any lessons now that she has Kirstian and Zarya. Careane gave lessons yesterday. Sareitha was supposed to give lessons but she slipped out of the palace on urgent business.

Sometimes they use Merilille as the subject for their lessons. Vandene refuses now. Careane gave lessons yesterday.

As she walks back to her rooms, Talaan catches up to her. She begs Nynaeve to take her to the White Tower as a novice.

Talaan has a hard time living up to the demands.

 

(Encyclopedia WoT)