How many hands will Rand loose?

[acmeraptor]

Consider this purely random newbie speculation but I have to think that with the number of characters out for blood that the initial fight could be a melee. There's precedence that being hit with a SG blade makes the skin turn black, I mused with the idea of Tuon being one who might hold Callandor but never bought into it. I'm thinking Shaidar Haran interrupting something major, no more lost hands.

 

It gives a link into seizing all that he is, yadda yadda..I think that phrase holds more meaning but my idea does give a cross tie of bringing a bit more of just the hand of the dark into play. The Moridin/Rand link doesn't seem like enough of seizing and touching/sealing the DO.

[herid]

Having something in your "hands" could be nothing more than in your possession, metaphorically speaking. It doesn't need to be a completely literal meaning, as someone said earlier. His hands could also refer to those on his team - all hands on deck. It could also be that the prophecy is cloudy, from a distant time.

 

What surprises me more than anything is your open-mindedness with regard to multiple resurrections, body swapping, etc., but not willing to consider that the one letter of the prophecy would be unimportant. Come on bro.

I'm quite happy to consider alternate explanations including metaphorical ones which I find reasonable. I don't yours. First, as I said, a misprint in a prophecy is out of the question IMO. Prophecies were constructed exceedingly carefully by both RJ and BS.

all hands on deck thing makes no sense at all so I'll just skip it.

The first suggestion that it might simply mean that Rand has Callandor in his possession might have been reasonable but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The two parts of the prophecy are clearly related. It would be a very weird prophecy if they were not. Besides, if they were totally separate what kind of new info to the reader would the prophecy convey? Rand has had Callandor in his possession since book 3. This prophecy is from book 12. Neither RJ nor BS would waste space on a prophecy of that sort. If the two parts are connected it implies either causality or that they occur at the same time. Neither make sense if it simply means Rand having possession of Calandor because again he's had it since book 3.

 

Rand resurrection on the other hand (I only meant one, not sure where you got multiple resurrections) has a ton of evidence going for it. It's implied by several prophecies, the Aelfinn answers and a bunch of foreshadowings. Lastly, the quote that Suttree found follows the classical pattern of an RJ foreshadowing and is a huge clue that Rand will get his hand back.

[Ian Ohlander]

The hand thing is interesting and just keeps popping up all over the series. Couple examples in the EotW.

He had no idea what had awakened, him from his unpleasant dream. He had been a little boy again, carrying Tam's sword and with a cradle strapped to his back, running through empty streets, pursued by Mordeth, who shouted that he only wanted his hand.

 

"Rand, you aren't afraid . . ." They were alone, but she looked around and still lowered her voice. "Moiraine Sedai says you don't have to touch the True Source. If you don't touch Saidin, if you don't try to wield the Power, you'll be safe."

"Oh, I won't ever touch it again. Not if I have to cut my hand off, first." What if I can't stop? I never tried to wield it, not even at the Eye. What if I can't stop?

 

Two things to note. The foreshadowing is always concerning cutting a hand. And there is a physical hand that can be possessed by someone (Elayne's severed hand or Mordeth seeking his hand). And yet Rand's hand was blown off (and presumably consumed) by a fireball. Nor was there any blood, whereas Min saw a bloody hand around Rand. It lends credence the theory that he will be resurrected by being ripped out of T'roid with a whole body and will then lose a hand later. Not conclusive, mind, but still interesting.

[herid]

@Ian Ohlander yes, the references to Rand's hand being cut off are tantalizing (haven't seen the first one you cited) and remarkably consistent in implying that the hand will be cut off rather than lost in some other way. There are a few more.

 

Rand felt the Dragon Scepter in his hand, felt every line of the carved Dragons against his heron-branded palm as clearly as if he were running his fingers over them, yet it seemed someone else’s hand. If a blade cut it off, he would feel the pain—and keep going. It would be another’s pain.

--aCoS, ch 1

Rand also told Min once that he would sooner cut off his hand than hurt her.

 

"Trust me, Min. I won’t hurt you. I will cut off my arm before I hurt you.”

--LoC, ch 49

 

 

But really, I only mentioned the possibility of Rand getting his hand back and loosing it again because I didn't think of a possible metaphorical interpretation of Min's viewing about a black hand holding Callandor. As was discussed earlier this could simply stand for one of the Dark siders getting Callandor from Rand. It could even represent Rand himself as I believe he'll fall under Shadows control again before it's all over. This one is very unlikely however because of what Min said about Callandor being used against Rand and because of parallels of Callandor to Excalibur which was stolen from Arthur and used against him before Arthur got it back.

 

While Rand regaining and again loosing his hand would tie up nicely with a number of Min's viewings about the severed hand, it would stretch the plot too much in terms of believability IMO. On the other hand it might do away with Rand having to go to Shayol Ghul twice which I also seriously dislike.

Shayol Ghul should be the place of the final showdown after all and Rand going there twice feels like cheating. Also, if I'm not mistaken the position of the moon shadow on the sun in the AMOL cover(Rand only has one hand there) says that the solar eclipse is ending, not beginning which would favor the final showdown too.

[Durinax]

I think we will see a possession event with the DO controlling Rands' body.

 

Recently during one of Mins' povs she was reading a philosophy book and she read a line that showed up in the book that said "all that he is, can be seized" or something very close to that. Now at this time she is researching Callandor and its flaws in relation to the last battle.

 

So if we take "all that he is, can be seized" and "A glowing sword, Callandor; being gripped in a black hand" I think it makes a pretty good case for a possession, especially since 'being gripped in a black hand' gains metaphorical sense for his soul. Combining Metaphysical and physical meaning like RJ enjoyed doing.

 

Also it is canon that in a circle of 2 women and 1 man that a woman has to lead the circle, this leads into the second bit of the possession. When Rand is possessed Nyn and Moir (from the cover) must strain their wills to prevent (p)Rand from running amock and laying things to waste all around him. This is the prime reason why Nyn and Moir must be used in the circle, out of all the women those two have the most solid wills, from Nyn's protectiveness and stubborness to back down even against unsurmountable odds (healing severing, madness), and Moirs' dedication to fight the shadow, and her steadfast will even when facing Forsaken and her self sacraficing against them.

[herid]

@Durinax I did mention this as a possibility in the last post but it still seems weird to me given that Rand will be in a circle and not in control.

But it would fit well with my theory that Rand will be captured by the Shadow and turned in some fashion which would require for one of the Light Siders to kill him.

 

However, I don't think strength of wills matters in a circle, does it?

[Durinax]

@Durinax I did mention this as a possibility in the last post but it still seems weird to me given that Rand will be in a circle and not in control.

But it would fit well with my theory that Rand will be captured by the Shadow and turned in some fashion which would require for one of the Light Siders to kill him.

 

However, I don't think strength of wills matters in a circle, does it?

I believe there is a reference to the Dom band that it takes a strong willed woman to control the man, and that if he is too power he will break free/go wild type thing. Which I believe is a direct correlation to Callandors ultimate usage.

 

From the wiki: They are also imperfect because, given time, he will eventually be able to control the woman as well as she controlling him. While saidin was tainted, this had extremely dangerous repercussions. Two women in the bracelets reduces this back seepage, but it also makes it harder to control the male channeler.

 

If it happens though I hope the (p)Rand tries to kill Moir and Nyn and Lan 'duels' him, I think that would be a nice parallel through the whole series.

[herid]

good point about the domination band. Moggy told Nynaeve about this in TSR and it's a special kind of circle so what's true there should be true with the circle too. Or do you think that Moiraine and Nynaeve will have to actually collar Rand again to keep him under control after he is turned?

[Durinax]

good point about the domination band. Moggy told Nynaeve about this in TSR and it's a special kind of circle so what's true there should be true with the circle too. Or do you think that Moiraine and Nynaeve will have to actually collar Rand again to keep him under control after he is turned?

well that part I am not sure of, now that I thought of Lan I would like to see Moir and Nyn keeping Rand from channelling and such, and Lan sparring with Rand again.

 

But on the other side I think it could be possible that the flaw in Callandor makes it act much like a Dom bracelet/collar, so they wouldn't need to, they could just control him by command (provided they can overcome the possession type deal).

[herid]

somehow I don't see Rand dueling Lan, especially with just one hand. Would be hard to do logistically too as Lan is rather busy at Tarwin's gap and will find it hard to disengage.

 

But it does open interesting possibilities for interpreting the second Dark prophecy. Broken Wolf=Rand. his fall and destruction are metaphorical and mean him falling to the Shadow but not actually dying. Lord of the Evening = also Rand (after he is turned). Broken Champion=? would be Lan in your scenario but as I said I don't see it.

[Durinax]

somehow I don't see Rand dueling Lan, especially with just one hand. Would be hard to do logistically too as Lan is rather busy at Tarwin's gap and will find it hard to disengage.

 

But it does open interesting possibilities for interpreting the second Dark prophecy. Broken Wolf=Rand. his fall and destruction are metaphorical and mean him falling to the Shadow but not actually dying. Lord of the Evening = also Rand (after he is turned). Broken Champion=? would be Lan in your scenario but as I said I don't see it.

I am not too sure how timelines match up, because I think Lans' charge is going on right around the time of the FoM meeting and Rand promised to get him help. But it is too early to see how those two timelines coincide. It is just something I think could be an epic scene

[mbuehner]

Maybe he will get a mechanical hand and, it will get shot by a laser gun, and he will put a black leather glove on to cover it up.

[nitavonne]

Rand knows he has never , ever turned to the shadow. I find more credible the theory that someone will create a hand for him.. Rand , Moiraine and Nynn are the best hope for the light to win.

I can't wait for January the 8th.!!!!