Potential new prediction

[skalors3]

The only hard evidence Rand will survive IMO is the Finns answer to his question of how to win the last battle and survive. While their answer suggests he will live, it also suggests that he may just live on in the future (ala Veins of Gold understanding). Problem with that answer is that it seems kind of cheesy and not akin to their typical answers. So this suggests Rand will survive somehow after everything is done with.

 

On the other hand, the story DEMANDS that he dies. If he survives it will damn near ruin the entire series. The only way he can survive would be if he "leaves" and goes with the Ogier when they leave the world. Or some similar ending. Just "Oh hey im going to live for the next 600 years sheering sheep in peace" is absurd and would demolish the ending of this series.

 

Thank you Mark. There is also hard evidence he will die too. There is even hard evidence that he will die twice.

 

Wheres the hard evidence he dies twice? I'm curious as I've never looked into either theory very much. I just feel like he has to die and if he doesnt there needs to be a very satisfying and creative solution to allow him to live at the end.

 

I'd say the hardest evidence is the whole twice he'll be marked prophecy. Twice to live and twice to die. That can be dismissed as LTT being his first life and death. However, it look at it as a moving forward prophecy, it can suggest he will live and die twice after being marked.

[thisguy]

This is completely circumstantial evidence but - If the ending of the story was written all those years ago when the beginning of the story was written, I expect a somewhat Tolkien-esque ending. Lan's Kingdom restored, Rand winning the LB, hanging around for a bit, and then taking off for some much needed R&R.

[skalors3]

This is completely circumstantial evidence but - If the ending of the story was written all those years ago when the beginning of the story was written, I expect a somewhat Tolkien-esque ending. Lan's Kingdom restored, Rand winning the LB, hanging around for a bit, and then taking off for some much needed R&R.

 

Lol, circumstantial but it could be evidence nonetheless. I, however, don't think that RJ is that type of writer. His characters even talk about how things occur in the stories they read and how they don't resemble their life. Look at Jain, the stories make him into a glorious man, but his own account of his life is sadder by far. It is a common theme throughout the books. Life is different than the stories. I think Rand's death closes this story out. Frodo was just a bystander who happened to rise above the expectations of him. Rand was born for this. He was made for this battle. It is his purpose.

[thisguy]

You could be right, man. I am in the camp that believes he will come back, though. We'll see. ;)

 

It just occurred to me, that the DO can transmigrate souls-bodies of the deceased. Whatever the DO can do the Creator can do. The TP is the DO's power, the OP is the Creator's power. That means that both powers should be able to be used for resurrection purposes.

[Terez]

Terez, I didn't think it was even a question about Callandor. I will have to take some time to share the exhausting amount of information and foreshadowing involving the use of Callandor and the last battle.

 

I happen to know all of it, thanks.

 

Then why even argue the point?

 

Because none of the foreshadowing indicates that Callandor will help him win, just that it's important for the ending. Most of the foreshadowing indicates it will make him vulnerable. Of course, that vulnerability is probably essential for the fulfillment of the prophecies, which will lead to his victory, but I somehow doubt it will be the key to his victory.

 

I, on the other hand, would like to hear some concrete "foreshadowing" supporting your view he will live through the end.

 

Rand asked how to survive the Last Battle, and the Aelfinn indicated that he had to die to survive it. That means he'll survive it; he just has to die first. Nicola's foretelling (he who is dead yet lives) indicates that he'll die before he actually wins the Last Battle, which happens to fit with what the Aelfinn said, meaning he has to be resurrected to finish the job. On top of that, there is a ton of evidence for the method of his resurrection which is outlined in detail in the other thread, most of which you probably didn't even read, and Rand's own hopes which you dismiss because they don't support your theory. But if anyone has earned the reward of a long life, he has.

[thisguy]

I think Callandor might have something to do with his resurrection and not his defeating the DO.

[Terez]

Callandor isn't necessary for his resurrection, and there are no clues suggesting it will be involved with his resurrection.

[thisguy]

Callandor isn't necessary for his resurrection, and there are no clues suggesting it will be involved with his resurrection.

Well, so far, it's the only item that's been used to attempt a resurrection.

 

Edit to add: and he couldn't understand why Callandor and not the Choedan Kal.

 

 

Edit to add more: In a sense, it's a symbol of rebirth from an Arthurian standpoint. Although, the sword in the stone is a different sword than excalibur, they can be seen as one sword here. Excalibur is broken and the Lady of the Lake fixes it and gives it back to Arthur. Nynaeve is the Lady of the Lake.

 

Edit to Add More: It is the only item we've seen able to stand up to Balefire. Everything else, including other angreal, are destroyed by Balefire. Choedan Kal was destroyed by and with the power.

[skalors3]

Callandor isn't necessary for his resurrection, and there are no clues suggesting it will be involved with his resurrection.

 

Show me a clue that points to his resurrection.

[Terez]

Clearly it's not worth the effort.

[skalors3]

Clearly it's not worth the effort.

 

It is. All I've ever heard is speculation of very obscure moments where people fill in the blanks of the unknown to support their theory. I have never seen anything glaringly obvious, and foreshadowing is usually easy to spot. You may know something I don't, that's why I am asking for your best proof.

[Edorion]

Read TFOH 49 And LoC 14. To borrow from Stan Lee, "nuff said"

[Suttree]

Clearly it's not worth the effort.

 

It is. All I've ever heard is speculation of very obscure moments where people fill in the blanks of the unknown to support their theory. I have never seen anything glaringly obvious, and foreshadowing is usually easy to spot. You may know something I don't, that's why I am asking for your best proof.

 

You have to be wilfully ignorant to pretend the foreshadowing doesn't exist. There is a good deal of it that has been provided ad nauseum over the years and there is enough in this thread alone to be called "concrete foreshadowing".

[Terez]

Read TFOH 49 And LoC 14. To borrow from Stan Lee, "nuff said"

 

Those two are the most descriptive, but I would add to that KOD 18 and TGS 33. There are lots of other, smaller foreshadowings but those two are particularly important.

[DaoineSidhe]

Okay, so time and again I've gotten trapped into making the last post of a page before it goes to the next page of posts, and this usually means my comments are not read as much as a result, so I am shamelessly making a filler post to occupy the last post on this page so I can make my real post at the head of the next page. Mayhaps that gets me warned, and mayhaps it is bad form, but meh, it's what I'm doing. Sorry to any admins or moderators ahead of time.

[DaoineSidhe]

In addition to the foreshadowing within the series, one should also look at the literary basis for the Wheel of Time. All Epic Fantasy (especially series) follow a very easy to follow tradition from Gilgamesh to the Odyssey to the Aeneid, to Dante's Paradiso, and onward to LotR, WoT, Harry Potter, Ice & Fire. One thing that is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in these stories is a "Journey to the Underworld". Now, historically this meant the main protagonist actually travels to "Hades", "Hell", "Heaven", etc. However, as times have evolved, this has come to usually be something akin to dying and then resurrecting, with potential revelations made to the character while dead. I tend to think that the story works better if Rand actually dies "Real Death" at the Last Battle, as it will make his sacrifice truly meaningful, and poignant. However, when one looks at the evidence, both in story, and from a literary perspective, Real Death for the main protagonist in an Epic Fantasy is fairly rare, and if it happens, is usually due to a tragic flaw (think Arthurian legend, and even that hints that he'll be back, or Artur Hawkwing from in WoTverse, where his death was due his hatred of Aes Sedai, who had the capability to heal him), not a noble sacrifice on the characters part. Time and again, when the main protagonist in the Epic Fantasy makes the noble sacrifice somehow that sacrifice is rewarded with another chance at life in some way, not in the final death.

 

I haven't included much of the "in story" evidence for Rand surviving the Last Battle, as much of that has already been shown. Instead, just wanted to show you the literary argument to augment the evidence that is already "in text" in WoT. I also know that using this "literary evidence" isn't 100% certain, but since getting into Epic Fantasy, and then studying the literary reviews and analysis of them, I can tell you its been pretty damn rare that the story does not fall out the way that you can predict based on the "Epic Poem" type of story. About the only one that has surprised me time and again with this is Song of Ice & Fire, and that, I think, is because George RR Martin has done a very good job of disguising who the actual "main protagonist" is, although as more and more people die, your list gets smaller, and that is starting to become easier to predict along the "Epic Poem" lines.

 

 

Edit: For font size and type after copy/pasting it from Word.

[thisguy]

Elric is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

[MarkDiLillo]

Terez, explain your interpretation of the "twice to live, twice to die" line? That is pretty hard evidence he's going to die again after he wins. I will admit that him just flat out dying again after he is resurrected would be a flat ending, but I see ZERO CHANCE that he will just survive and retire happily in Randland. A journey back into TAR maybe, a journey with the Ogier to another world (unlikely), etc. could work. Some "happy going away" seems likely rather than a death. I'm leaning a bit towards a scenario where he voluntarily dies with a smile saying goodbye because he knows he'll be back agai... or something along those lines.

[Terez]

Terez, explain your interpretation of the "twice to live, twice to die" line? That is pretty hard evidence he's going to die again after he wins.

 

I don't think so. Assuming you interpret it as two lives and two deaths—which is not necessarily implicit in that prophecy at all—even assuming that, his second death need not happen before the end. The entire prophecy seems to describe what each marking is for, and only one is for the price he must pay.

 

I will admit that him just flat out dying again after he is resurrected would be a flat ending, but I see ZERO CHANCE that he will just survive and retire happily in Randland.

 

Why? There has to be a reason for your assertion that makes sense. It's what he wants, and there is nothing preventing it from happening, except the possibility of the turmoil in the future Aviendha saw, which I honestly think will be resolved. It doesn't mean he has to live in total seclusion; he's free to travel the world using the Mirror of Mists, for himself and Min. He's free to visit his other two women in secrecy. No one has to know he is still alive, and it fits with even the Jesus resurrection, where he only appears to a few select people, his closest friends, and his resurrection is a matter of myth and legend to those who weren't there. It fits with everything we know, both as far as evidence goes and as far as thematic foreshadowing goes.

[herid]

But Jesus didn't stick around for very long after his resurrection. He didn't die again but neither did he stay around.

But more importantly I really don't see how Jordan's remark about Rand being gone like the wind can possibly apply if he settles to live incognito in the Two Rivers.

[skalors3]

Terez, explain your interpretation of the "twice to live, twice to die" line? That is pretty hard evidence he's going to die again after he wins. I will admit that him just flat out dying again after he is resurrected would be a flat ending, but I see ZERO CHANCE that he will just survive and retire happily in Randland. A journey back into TAR maybe, a journey with the Ogier to another world (unlikely), etc. could work. Some "happy going away" seems likely rather than a death. I'm leaning a bit towards a scenario where he voluntarily dies with a smile saying goodbye because he knows he'll be back agai... or something along those lines.

 

Mark completely captured my point. I have said several times that I don't see Rand surviving the Last Battle. I did not say I see Rand only dying once. There are a million ways that can happen. I am asking for proof that the champion of light lives after his job is done. Everything I see points to a world free of Rand.

 

The only reference I have seen is the answer from the Finn's when he asked how he can survive. Again, I have thought from the moment I read that quote that it meant that if Rand fails to die at the Last Battle the wheel will be destroyed due to defeat and thus he'll stop serving the wheel.

[skalors3]

In addition to the foreshadowing within the series, one should also look at the literary basis for the Wheel of Time. All Epic Fantasy (especially series) follow a very easy to follow tradition from Gilgamesh to the Odyssey to the Aeneid, to Dante's Paradiso, and onward to LotR, WoT, Harry Potter, Ice & Fire. One thing that is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in these stories is a "Journey to the Underworld". Now, historically this meant the main protagonist actually travels to "Hades", "Hell", "Heaven", etc. However, as times have evolved, this has come to usually be something akin to dying and then resurrecting, with potential revelations made to the character while dead. I tend to think that the story works better if Rand actually dies "Real Death" at the Last Battle, as it will make his sacrifice truly meaningful, and poignant. However, when one looks at the evidence, both in story, and from a literary perspective, Real Death for the main protagonist in an Epic Fantasy is fairly rare, and if it happens, is usually due to a tragic flaw (think Arthurian legend, and even that hints that he'll be back, or Artur Hawkwing from in WoTverse, where his death was due his hatred of Aes Sedai, who had the capability to heal him), not a noble sacrifice on the characters part. Time and again, when the main protagonist in the Epic Fantasy makes the noble sacrifice somehow that sacrifice is rewarded with another chance at life in some way, not in the final death.

 

I haven't included much of the "in story" evidence for Rand surviving the Last Battle, as much of that has already been shown. Instead, just wanted to show you the literary argument to augment the evidence that is already "in text" in WoT. I also know that using this "literary evidence" isn't 100% certain, but since getting into Epic Fantasy, and then studying the literary reviews and analysis of them, I can tell you its been pretty damn rare that the story does not fall out the way that you can predict based on the "Epic Poem" type of story. About the only one that has surprised me time and again with this is Song of Ice & Fire, and that, I think, is because George RR Martin has done a very good job of disguising who the actual "main protagonist" is, although as more and more people die, your list gets smaller, and that is starting to become easier to predict along the "Epic Poem" lines.

 

 

Edit: For font size and type after copy/pasting it from Word.

 

I understand why Rand deserves to live. I think he does too if he lives as himself and is completely healed. I just don't see it. I also understand that the main protagonist usually lives through the story in this genre (there are examples of the opposite, but those are few and far between).

[thisguy]

I think an asking of proof might be asking too much without the published work in front of us.

 

All that can be offered is circumstantial evidence. Here is something that made me believe he might certainly live through TG:

 

Pg 1049 ToM (Soft cover) - "People of the Dragon indeed. What is the good of being his people? ...... He used us, then cast us away." There is no mention of him dying and a dead man cannot cast anything away.

 

I do not believe that Aviendha's vision was a true vision of the futue. I think it was more like Egwene's raising to accepted where she saw herself as Amyrlin but not bound to the three oaths. Like that vision, I think there's truth in this one even though the entirety of the vision is not the true future.

 

Obviously, you can disagree.

[skalors3]

I think an asking of proof might be asking too much without the published work in front of us.

 

All that can be offered is circumstantial evidence. Here is something that made me believe he might certainly live through TG:

 

Pg 1049 ToM (Soft cover) - "People of the Dragon indeed. What is the good of being his people? ...... He used us, then cast us away." There is no mention of him dying and a dead man cannot cast anything away.

 

I do not believe that Aviendha's vision was a true vision of the futue. I think it was more like Egwene's raising to accepted where she saw herself as Amyrlin but not bound to the three oaths. Like that vision, I think there's truth in this one even though the entirety of the vision is not the true future.

 

Obviously, you can disagree.

 

I agree thisguy. However, I think the best view we have of the situation is Padra's view. She sounds like a woman who never knew her Father.

 

The Aiel can be considered cast away because he left with with no direction. He used them for war, left everyone instructions except for the Aiel, and left. That is pretty much casting away a people. It is how you'd treat a broken spear. I think the earliest view is the one where we can get the best idea of what happened to Rand.

[Terez]

But Jesus didn't stick around for very long after his resurrection. He didn't die again but neither did he stay around.

 

I don't think he'll stay around in Randland either—at least, not so far as the vast majority of people are concerned. There will be a few people who know he's alive, but only the important people.

 

But more importantly I really don't see how Jordan's remark about Rand being gone like the wind can possibly apply if he settles to live incognito in the Two Rivers.

 

Because as far as most people are concerned he is gone. The Dragon Reborn is nowhere to be found.