Need in Tel'aran'rhiod

[thisguy]

She made perfect copies of the ter'angreal that require channeling; those were relatively easy for her. She never managed a perfect copy of the stone ring, partly because she couldn't get the colors right. The white/black cuendillar of the seals has led some to theorize that cuendillar made from saidin is black, since all of the cuendillar made by saidar we've seen is white.

Wouldn't that mean the seals were made with female AS help? Aren't they white and black like a yin yang?

[Terez]

Yes, and there have been various arguments around that detail. (Like, maybe Ilyena was on Lews Therin's side, or maybe the seals were made for some other purpose and simply used as focus points.)

[thisguy]

Yes, and there have been various arguments around that detail. (Like, maybe Ilyena was on Lews Therin's side, or maybe the seals were made for some other purpose and simply used as focus points.)

That would be really interesting - Ilyena (I love that name by the way - Russian. Think it's pretty). But, that would throw the whole 100 companions thing out the window, wouldn't it? It's an interesting idea because it would show how much Ilyena loved Lews and stood by him, adding another level of complexity to the whole story. And, I have no problem with the 100 companions turning into the 100 companions and the women they loved or something.Did anyone ever ask RJ?

[Terez]

Yes, and there have been various arguments around that detail. (Like, maybe Ilyena was on Lews Therin's side, or maybe the seals were made for some other purpose and simply used as focus points.)

That would be really interesting - Ilyena (I love that name by the way - Russian. Think it's pretty). But, that would throw the whole 100 companions thing out the window, wouldn't it?

 

Maybe not, since apparently Lews Therin was similarly overprotective of women, and one woman wouldn't have been enough to really increase their chances of success. But again, that's not the only explanation; I'm just telling you the various theories. You might find the other more probable.

[thisguy]

Yes, and there have been various arguments around that detail. (Like, maybe Ilyena was on Lews Therin's side, or maybe the seals were made for some other purpose and simply used as focus points.)

That would be really interesting - Ilyena (I love that name by the way - Russian. Think it's pretty). But, that would throw the whole 100 companions thing out the window, wouldn't it?

 

Maybe not, since apparently Lews Therin was similarly overprotective of women, and one woman wouldn't have been enough to really increase their chances of success. But again, that's not the only explanation; I'm just telling you the various theories. You might find the other more probable.

I'm just asking, Terez... and questioning. I'm glad to hear the various theories, and will probably question them, too. Please, don't stop because of me. I'll shut up if that will keep you spilling what you know. :)

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

The seals were most likely made before hand With both Male and Female Aes Sedia before they disagreed about how to finally seal the DO. They most likely knew that there had to be seals in Place before the last battle. That is only one of my ideas. But another posiblility is that they had just used 13 symbols of Aes Sedai they had laying around. (dont ask why i capitize random words lol)

[thisguy]

The seals were most likely made before hand With both Male and Female Aes Sedia before they disagreed about how to finally seal the DO. They most likely knew that there had to be seals in Place before the last battle. That is only one of my ideas. But another posiblility is that they had just used 13 symbols of Aes Sedai they had laying around. (dont ask why i capitize random words lol)

 

Those ideas both make a lot of sense. Sort of like the Choedan Kal - they made those before they were sure if they would use them. Good thinking. Thanks.

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

Great random thoughts come to me when i'm trying to slack at work lol. But that is the only way i can see it working since everyone avoided the Male Aes Sedai after the taint

[Terez]

How is that not what I already said? lol...

[thisguy]

How is that not what I already said? lol...

Sorry, I didn't see that. Not trying to give away anyone's thunder.

[fionwe1987]

She made perfect copies of the ter'angreal that require channeling; those were relatively easy for her. She never managed a perfect copy of the stone ring, partly because she couldn't get the colors right. The white/black cuendillar of the seals has led some to theorize that cuendillar made from saidin is black, since all of the cuendillar made by saidar we've seen is white.

They retconned this later and had Elayne perfect the dream ter'angreal that didn't need channeling to explain why Nynaeve, Siuan and Leane were able to use their full OP strength in TAR. Still doesn't explain what Mesaana did to the stolen ones that let the BA fight fully too. Anyway, the "correction" is apparently going to be put in the next edition of ToM.

 

That aside, though, the Ring of Tamyrlin being the dream ring makes a ton of sense. It is entirely possible that using it gives a Dreamer even more power in TAR. Sort of like a sa'angreal for Dreaming. And the fact that it ended up in Egwene's hands is suggestive.

[Terez]

She made perfect copies of the ter'angreal that require channeling; those were relatively easy for her. She never managed a perfect copy of the stone ring, partly because she couldn't get the colors right. The white/black cuendillar of the seals has led some to theorize that cuendillar made from saidin is black, since all of the cuendillar made by saidar we've seen is white.

They retconned this later and had Elayne perfect the dream ter'angreal that didn't need channeling to explain why Nynaeve, Siuan and Leane were able to use their full OP strength in TAR.

They retconned it, but not like that. And you can bet that was on purpose. Problem is, most of the stolen copies were perfect copies of imperfect ter'angreal. They only have one ter'angreal that doesn't make one misty, and that's the original ring ter'angreal.

[fionwe1987]

She made perfect copies of the ter'angreal that require channeling; those were relatively easy for her. She never managed a perfect copy of the stone ring, partly because she couldn't get the colors right. The white/black cuendillar of the seals has led some to theorize that cuendillar made from saidin is black, since all of the cuendillar made by saidar we've seen is white.

They retconned this later and had Elayne perfect the dream ter'angreal that didn't need channeling to explain why Nynaeve, Siuan and Leane were able to use their full OP strength in TAR.

They retconned it, but not like that. And you can bet that was on purpose. Problem is, most of the stolen copies were perfect copies of imperfect ter'angreal. They only have one ter'angreal that doesn't make one misty, and that's the original ring ter'angreal.

Nope. See this part from the ebook:

 

Shielyn glanced at her hand where, in the real world, she would be holding the small plate that—with a channeled bit of Spirit—let a woman enter Tel’aran’rhiod. Egwene hadn’t given them the ter’angreal Elayne had finally perfected that let one enter without needing to channel, of course. Those were more versatile, and therefore more powerful. Best to keep those a secret.

 

The only ter'angreal that lets you enter the dream without Channeling is the ring. Which Elayne has apparently perfected, and was used by Nynaeve, Siuan and Leanne.

 

This, however, doesn't explain why Elayne herself couldn't make it to the TAR meeting. Its one thing for her not to be able to channel into the weaker ter'angreal while pregnant. The ring doesn't need channeling at all, so she should be able to enter TAR just fine.

[Terez]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

[Sid]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

Indeed. It would take a lot of effort to have rewritten the scene so it actually made sense, so they changed something else that doesn't make sense to fix it, making yet more things not make sense.

[Suttree]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

Indeed. It would take a lot of effort to have rewritten the scene so it actually made sense, so they changed something else that doesn't make sense to fix it, making yet more things not make sense.

 

Just terrible....seriously bums me out.

[fionwe1987]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

Yup. And all the evidence that the ring was special will have to go down to the drain. If Demandred saw Elayne in misty form and associated it with practice ter'angreal, that automatically puts the ring at a higher grade. After all, why let novice Dreamwalkers enter the dream fully and cause even more damage? That means this ring was used to other purpose, or was indeed unique. And now Elayne has apparently made enough of them that Egwene could have lent some to the Sea Folk! But, Elayne herself couldn't enter TAR using one of her copies (which she made without the original to work on!).

 

And then, Luckers posted a communication from Maria where it was indicated that in response to issues with the Black Ajah channeling so strongly, they've decided that Mesaana altered the ter'angreal Sheriam stole! A Foresaken with the ability to alter ter'angreal, slotted in just to cover up a mistake of epic proportions.

 

All this makes me wonder... how was the Egwene-Mesaana showdown supposed to happen? I have suspicion RJ intended it to happen earlier in the chronology, perhaps after Egwene meets the BA hunters, gets released from Elaida's imprisonment, but before the Seanchan attack. An event like this would certainly better explain how Egwene so completely gained the BA hunter's support.

 

ETA: My bad on some of that. In KoD, Elayne says the twisted rings were useless for her since she became pregnant. So even perfect copies might have been useless. As for how she copied them, I forgot Siuan had the real one, and Egwene could simply have sent that to Elayne. She even mentions giving Elayne this task when they first meet.

[thisguy]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

Yup. And all the evidence that the ring was special will have to go down to the drain. If Demandred saw Elayne in misty form and associated it with practice ter'angreal, that automatically puts the ring at a higher grade. After all, why let novice Dreamwalkers enter the dream fully and cause even more damage? That means this ring was used to other purpose, or was indeed unique. And now Elayne has apparently made enough of them that Egwene could have lent some to the Sea Folk! But, Elayne herself couldn't enter TAR using one of her copies (which she made without the original to work on!).

 

And then, Luckers posted a communication from Maria where it was indicated that in response to issues with the Black Ajah channeling so strongly, they've decided that Mesaana altered the ter'angreal Sheriam stole! A Foresaken with the ability to alter ter'angreal, slotted in just to cover up a mistake of epic proportions.

 

All this makes me wonder... how was the Egwene-Mesaana showdown supposed to happen? I have suspicion RJ intended it to happen earlier in the chronology, perhaps after Egwene meets the BA hunters, gets released from Elaida's imprisonment, but before the Seanchan attack. An event like this would certainly better explain how Egwene so completely gained the BA hunter's support.

 

ETA: My bad on some of that. In KoD, Elayne says the twisted rings were useless for her since she became pregnant. So even perfect copies might have been useless. As for how she copied them, I forgot Siuan had the real one, and Egwene could simply have sent that to Elayne. She even mentions giving Elayne this task when they first meet.

 

So, there's no issue then?

[Sid]

Elayne had the original one in WH when she and Nyneave (using a copy) visited Egwene in T'a'R. In CoT, she was having trouble using the original one due to her pregnancy so Aviendha visited Egwene in T'a'R instead of Elayne. In KoD, when Aviendha leaves for Arad Doman, Elayne sends the original ring along with Aviendha and she keeps a silver ring that requires channeling spirit.

 

So, Elayne would have to make original twisted rings with only imperfect copies for a guide while she's pregnant, something she was unable to do for months, while neither pregnant nor having troubles with holding the power, and with the actual original twisted ring to use as a basis for copying. And such a tremendous breakthrough occurs offscreen. Hmmm.

[fionwe1987]

So, there's no issue then?

Of course there is. Part of it is what Sid said above. But then there's also the issue with the Black Ajah being able to channel so well, and them not looking insubstantial to the others. They were supposed to be using the weaker ter'angreal. That got retconned into them probably coming in some other way, or Mesaana altering the ter'angreal to make them better.

 

Elayne had the original one in WH when she and Nyneave (using a copy) visited Egwene in T'a'R. In CoT, she was having trouble using the original one due to her pregnancy so Aviendha visited Egwene in T'a'R instead of Elayne. In KoD, when Aviendha leaves for Arad Doman, Elayne sends the original ring along with Aviendha and she keeps a silver ring that requires channeling spirit.

 

So, Elayne would have to make original twisted rings with only imperfect copies for a guide while she's pregnant, something she was unable to do for months, while neither pregnant nor having troubles with holding the power, and with the actual original twisted ring to use as a basis for copying. And such a tremendous breakthrough occurs offscreen. Hmmm.

Yeah, you're right. The original was with Aviendha. I got way too confused with all the changes in this. Siuan had a copy, not the original. And the original was always with Aviendha. In fact, that might explain, to some degree, what happened with the columns.

[thisguy]

The Iron Disc and The Amber terangreals that need a spirit weave to work - I don't remember - are they training terangreal that make the user misty or do their users come into TAR fully?

 

And does anybody remember where in the books it is explained how many of each the rebels had? I know it's 19 altogether, just wondering how many of each. Thank you.

[Terez]

Again, the only ter'angreal that does not make one misty is the original stone ring.

[David Selig]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

ETA: My bad on some of that. In KoD, Elayne says the twisted rings were useless for her since she became pregnant. So even perfect copies might have been useless. As for how she copied them, I forgot Siuan had the real one, and Egwene could simply have sent that to Elayne. She even mentions giving Elayne this task when they first meet.

This is also somewhat of a retcon, BTW, to explain the scene in CoT when Elayne was unable to enter TAR to meet Egwene. In the original version of CoT, Aviendha mentions to Egwene that Elayne can't use the twisted ring because of her troubles with channelling while pregnant ("the flows kept slipping away from her"). A mistake, obviously, so this sentence was removed later on, and only the "It's the babes" remained as an explanation, and it was additionally confirmed in KoD that the pregnancy itself is preventing her to use his ring.

[MauricXe]

Same reason the characters all stay in their palaces/tents/homes and listen to distant rumors on what's going on elsewhere, despite having the ability to teleport anywhere they wish on the planet. Seriously, if Moridin wants to kill Perrin and Mat so badly, why not open a gateway to wherever in the world they are staying at the moment, throw in a tremendous fireball, and celebrate victory with Shaidar Haran over a dozen female virgins?

 

Instead he has his underlings order their underlings to tell their underlings' underlings to hatch some convoluted plot which may or may not threaten the target's loved one's great aunt's beloved pet cat, hoping to draw out the target at some point during the yearly quarter. JUST OPEN A GATEWAY AND SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE, YOU DINGUS. You're all-powerful, he's got a hammer.

 

 

So yeah, you have to turn off your brain when you read this series. It's a genre thing. WoT is a fantasy-theme soap opera, and the characters only use valuable supernatural skills when the author feels it moves the story ahead. Not when they would have logically done so.

 

 

lol!!!

[thisguy]

Dear god, that is an egregious retcon.

ETA: My bad on some of that. In KoD, Elayne says the twisted rings were useless for her since she became pregnant. So even perfect copies might have been useless. As for how she copied them, I forgot Siuan had the real one, and Egwene could simply have sent that to Elayne. She even mentions giving Elayne this task when they first meet.

This is also somewhat of a retcon, BTW, to explain the scene in CoT when Elayne was unable to enter TAR to meet Egwene. In the original version of CoT, Aviendha mentions to Egwene that Elayne can't use the twisted ring because of her troubles with channelling while pregnant ("the flows kept slipping away from her"). A mistake, obviously, so this sentence was removed later on, and only the "It's the babes" remained as an explanation, and it was additionally confirmed in KoD that the pregnancy itself is preventing her to use his ring.

 

So, everybody screwed up from top to bottom. Oh well....