Why was Cyndane punished?

[Wool-headed lummox]

Ever since Lanfear's return as Cyndane, she seemed like a fully-fledged operative of the Shadow, albeit with a reduced status and less independence, most likely punished for hoping to overthrow the Dark One together with Rand and undermining other Forsaken to reach this goal. She attended the Forsaken meetings in WH and KoD, she went to battle near Shadar Logoth at the Cleansing the way most other Forsaken did, and in TGS Graendal mentions that Cyndane and Moghedien spend their time rallying Darkfriends against Perrin and Mat, occasionally appearing in the south.

 

And yet, in the prologue to AMoL, she is suddenly exempt from the last Forsaken meeting and introduction of M'Hael. Moridin briefly mentions her as "one who is punished the most", and he keeps wearing Cyndane's mindtrap, while Moghedien got hers back. In the epilogue to ToM, Rand sees her trapped in the dreamworld, begging for help, tortured continuously by someone who "grinds her bones and Heals her just enough to keep her alive" (Moridin?). Assuming the whole scene is genuine, this seems like an unprecedented situation for someone of the Forsaken caliber.

 

The question is, what happened between the start of TGS and the end of ToM that reduced Cyndane to a most unenviable state, and netted some favor to Moghedien? The last thing we know about Moridin's angels is that they were tasked with killing Perrin and Mat. Of course, both lads remain perfectly alive and unharmed as of the start of AMoL (Mat's eye has nothing to do with the Forsaken), which hardly implies that Moghedien was more successful at this particular task than Cyndane.

 

Mind you, Cyndane seems in a much more dire situation than even Graendal, who spectacularly failed her mission to kill Perrin, and got blamed for destroying Mesaana in the process. Sure, Graendal most likely got some hardcore Myrdraal love, and ended up in the body of a hideous hag, but she seems to retain some stature, a measure of freedom (the female Forsaken in the Town-in-the-Blight inn who ordered Isam to kill Rand was most likely Hessalam), and there is no indication she got mindtrapped like Moggy/Cyndy.

 

Cyndane, on the other hand, is sealed away in Moridin's dreamshard, tortured continuously to the point of begging Rand for help and telling him "she's sorry", not allowed even to attend a Forsaken rally (with so few of them remaining), and not given her mindtrap back the way Moghedien got hers. Had this punishment been issued for conspiring against the DO with Rand, she would have gotten it right after being resurrected five or six books ago. It has to be something new.

 

 

In summary, the following conclusions:

 

1. Cyndane and Moghedien started out in a similar state, but Moghedien was eventually promoted, whereas Cyndane got reduced even further;

2. Cyndane's punishment is far, far more excruciating than Graendal's;

3. She fell out of favor some time between the start of TGS and the end of ToM.

 

 

 

So, does anyone have any idea what Cyndane could have messed up so badly? Everyone is hell-bent on finding out what Demandred has been up to, but the truth is - we know almost as little about Moggy and Cyndy, and both were a far more notable part of the story than mister Never Smiles.

[Aulduron]

Do we know it was Greandal who met Isam in that blight-town?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Do we know it was Greandal who met Isam in that blight-town?

 

Nah that was Asmodeana

 

On topic

I always figured Lanfear got an extra dose of punishment because she actually planned on betraying the DO. She gave Rand a teacher, allowed him to retain possession of the CK which he used to cleanse saidin and tried to convince him to challenge the DO together with her.

[FarShainMael]

Possibly she's just the bait on Moridin's hook, and it's not 'punishment' as such, at all.

[Neophyte]

Possibly she's just the bait on Moridin's hook, and it's not 'punishment' as such, at all.

 

I agree that this is a very real probability. The Dark One isn't guided by a sense of "justice," so Cyndane wouldn't have had to actually to anything to "deserve" punishment. If torturing her makes her more effective bait, then torture away.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Do we know it was Greandal who met Isam in that blight-town?

 

It is unlikely.

 

This scene was written by RJ, it was meant to be in the original prologue (which would have been tGS timeline).

 

Therefore, Graendal would not have been Hessalam, nor would she have been palace-balefired yet.

 

So it takes away the two biggest points in her favour (revenge against Rand and disgust at her new body)

 

Cyndane is likely not punished any more than she was pre-ToM. She isn't really in any favour in WH and KoD. She is only at the meetings as Moridin's plaything, who happens to have information. She does not speak unless called upon.

 

I suspect she was not at the most recent meeting because she is busy with whatever is happening in ToM epilogue. She has been absent at other Chosen meetings, so I don't think that anything need to have changed drastically tGS-ToM.

 

I think she is most punished because of her actions pre-Finns. Pretty much betraying the DO and helping the enemy (with whatever intentions) and then trying to kill him. Also, I suspect the DO isn't happy Moridin had to go in and save her from the Finns.

[Neophyte]

Do we know it was Greandal who met Isam in that blight-town?

 

It is unlikely.

 

This scene was written by RJ, it was meant to be in the original prologue (which would have been tGS timeline).

 

Therefore, Graendal would not have been Hessalam, nor would she have been palace-balefired yet.

 

So it takes away the two biggest points in her favour (revenge against Rand and disgust at her new body)

 

I'm not so sure about that. She would still have had reason to want al'Thor dead at that point. The reasons might not have been as personal, but with al'Thor in Arad Doman, closing in on her location, she'd have good reason to want him gone. The "adjusting" that Sanderson had to do might have been an adjustment of her motives, not the person making the request.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Do we know it was Greandal who met Isam in that blight-town?

 

It is unlikely.

 

This scene was written by RJ, it was meant to be in the original prologue (which would have been tGS timeline).

 

Therefore, Graendal would not have been Hessalam, nor would she have been palace-balefired yet.

 

So it takes away the two biggest points in her favour (revenge against Rand and disgust at her new body)

 

I'm not so sure about that. She would still have had reason to want al'Thor dead at that point. The reasons might not have been as personal, but with al'Thor in Arad Doman, closing in on her location, she'd have good reason to want him gone. The "adjusting" that Sanderson had to do might have been an adjustment of her motives, not the person making the request.

 

I doubt it, but it is possible.

 

It greatly reduces the possibility, in any case.

[thisguy]

If Cyndane is really being punished, her showing up in Rand's dream wouldn't necessarily be part of the plan.

 

And, how did she do that? I thought his dreams were warded?

 

If her punishment is a lie and just bait for Rand, maybe it's possible with a concerted effort from Moridin, Mogh and Cyn to enter Rand's dreams somehow..... ????? .............

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Cyndane is really being punished, her showing up in Rand's dream wouldn't necessarily be part of the plan.

 

And, how did she do that? I thought his dreams were warded?

 

If her punishment is a lie and just bait for Rand, maybe it's possible with a concerted effort from Moridin, Mogh and Cyn to enter Rand's dreams somehow..... ????? .............

 

Two possibilities here.

 

1. With Moridin's help, now that the two seem to share each other's dreams and what not. Could have got Lanfear in that way.

 

2. Lanfear is an expert at TAR, she can retain control when in someone else's dream (very hard) and she boasted that she could break Rand's wards. (although she never did it, the foreshadowing is there.)

[Wool-headed lummox]

If her punishment is a lie and just bait for Rand, maybe it's possible with a concerted effort from Moridin, Mogh and Cyn to enter Rand's dreams somehow..... ????? .............

Bait? Using Lanfear as bait? As in, hoping that Rand will feel sorry for the psycho Forsaken who was going to put him through inspeakable torture last he saw her, and rush forward to save her? That's overly moronic.

 

And, how did she do that? I thought his dreams were warded?

If Cyndane is tortured in the dreamworld, it will be in Moridin's dreamshard. Since Rand and Moridin have this link... it's not impossible that one would slip into the other's dream.

[Neophyte]

If her punishment is a lie and just bait for Rand, maybe it's possible with a concerted effort from Moridin, Mogh and Cyn to enter Rand's dreams somehow..... ????? .............

Bait? Using Lanfear as bait? As in, hoping that Rand will feel sorry for the psycho Forsaken who was going to put him through inspeakable torture last he saw her, and rush forward to save her? That's overly moronic.

 

And yet, that is precisely the appeal that was made, and it tickled something in Rand. Desire was mixed in with all the other emotions that he felt when confronted with the knowledge that it was Mierin he was seeing.

 

Perhaps it is just an attempt at distraction, but if it keeps happening, Moridin may hope that Rand reaches the conclusion that Mierin genuinely desires redemption - and with all of Lews Therin's memories that is more of a possibility.

 

It's not what I would have done, but then, the Shadow has consistently not done what I would have done, so ...

 

 

And, how did she do that? I thought his dreams were warded?

If Cyndane is tortured in the dreamworld, it will be in Moridin's dreamshard. Since Rand and Moridin have this link... it's not impossible that one would slip into the other's dream.

 

Yup. Took the words right out of my mouth - we've already seen that the Moridin/Rand link can go through Rand's wards.

[thisguy]

If her punishment is a lie and just bait for Rand, maybe it's possible with a concerted effort from Moridin, Mogh and Cyn to enter Rand's dreams somehow..... ????? .............

Bait? Using Lanfear as bait? As in, hoping that Rand will feel sorry for the psycho Forsaken who was going to put him through inspeakable torture last he saw her, and rush forward to save her? That's overly moronic.

 

And yet, that is precisely the appeal that was made, and it tickled something in Rand. Desire was mixed in with all the other emotions that he felt when confronted with the knowledge that it was Mierin he was seeing.

 

Perhaps it is just an attempt at distraction, but if it keeps happening, Moridin may hope that Rand reaches the conclusion that Mierin genuinely desires redemption - and with all of Lews Therin's memories that is more of a possibility.

 

It's not what I would have done, but then, the Shadow has consistently not done what I would have done, so ...

 

 

And, how did she do that? I thought his dreams were warded?

If Cyndane is tortured in the dreamworld, it will be in Moridin's dreamshard. Since Rand and Moridin have this link... it's not impossible that one would slip into the other's dream.

 

Yup. Took the words right out of my mouth - we've already seen that the Moridin/Rand link can go through Rand's wards.

 

Where have we seen the link bypass the wards?

[Neophyte]

Where have we seen the link bypass the wards?

 

In TGS chapter 15, when Rand accidentally drops into Moridin's dreamshard. Neither of them apparently intended it, but they were brought together. It seems entirely plausible that Moridin can exploit that connection intentionally now.

[thisguy]

Where have we seen the link bypass the wards?

 

In TGS chapter 15, when Rand accidentally drops into Moridin's dreamshard. Neither of them apparently intended it, but they were brought together. It seems entirely plausible that Moridin can exploit that connection intentionally now.

 

Hmmm.... I remember that.... but he went into Mori's dreams.... I guess the door can swing both ways.... must if Cyndane's there. I like how the DO brought Lanfear back as a punk rock chick.

[Neophyte]

 

Hmmm.... I remember that.... but he went into Mori's dreams.... I guess the door can swing both ways.... must if Cyndane's there. I like how the DO brought Lanfear back as a punk rock chick.

 

I think the key is that he went into Moridin's dreams unintentionally. That implies to me that the barrier between them is very thin indeed. My guess is that, since that encounter, Moridin has found a way to pull him in deliberately.

[thisguy]

Hmmm.... I remember that.... but he went into Mori's dreams.... I guess the door can swing both ways.... must if Cyndane's there. I like how the DO brought Lanfear back as a punk rock chick.

 

I think the key is that he went into Moridin's dreams unintentionally. That implies to me that the barrier between them is very thin indeed. My guess is that, since that encounter, Moridin has found a way to pull him in deliberately.

 

So, are you saying that Cyndane was in Mori's dream and Rand crossed over after he heard her?

[Elisaroth]

I was thinking that its bait aswell. Else its fact that cyndane wanted betray DO and she is one who know how Bore was made. Then again if DO knew that risk it would not bought back Cyndane so i guess bait is more likely.

[Neophyte]

So, are you saying that Cyndane was in Mori's dream and Rand crossed over after he heard her?

 

Pretty much. I think Moridin is keeping Cyndane in one of his dreamshards, and that Moridin has found a way to make her screams penetrate into Rand's dreams. After he heard her screams, Rand actively sought after the source of them, so he probably did the actual crossing over himself, the I'm not sure how well-defined the boundary between a dreamshard and Tel'aran'rhiod is.

[thisguy]

So, are you saying that Cyndane was in Mori's dream and Rand crossed over after he heard her?

 

Pretty much. I think Moridin is keeping Cyndane in one of his dreamshards, and that Moridin has found a way to make her screams penetrate into Rand's dreams. After he heard her screams, Rand actively sought after the source of them, so he probably did the actual crossing over himself, the I'm not sure how well-defined the boundary between a dreamshard and Tel'aran'rhiod is.

I've only read the free parts of the prologue and chapter one so I really don't know much at all about the dreamshards (better than dreamshart, for sure). But, that would make sense.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Again, I don't see any sense for Moridin to create the illusion of Cyndane's punishment both for Rand, and for the other Forsaken. If Cyndane isn't really being punished, and is just aiming for that Oscar statuette - why bother lying about this to her colleagues? What, does Rand have a link to all of them as well? If Cyndane really is being tortured, it would be too much of a risk sending Rand to her, as she could in her agony/despair reveal vital information. Finally, I really don't see the logic of intentionally letting Rand think that Cyndane is in pain. Won't he assume that she deserves whatever happening to her? Isn't WoT, for all its numerous flaws, consisntently averted the compulsive need to save people disorder?

 

It's easier to assume that Cyndane took a wrong turn somewhere, and Rand accidentally witnessed her [unishment.

[Neophyte]

Again, I don't see any sense for Moridin to create the illusion of Cyndane's punishment both for Rand, and for the other Forsaken. If Cyndane isn't really being punished, and is just aiming for that Oscar statuette - why bother lying about this to her colleagues? What, does Rand have a link to all of them as well? If Cyndane really is being tortured, it would be too much of a risk sending Rand to her, as she could in her agony/despair reveal vital information. Finally, I really don't see the logic of intentionally letting Rand think that Cyndane is in pain. Won't he assume that she deserves whatever happening to her? Isn't WoT, for all its numerous flaws, consisntently averted the compulsive need to save people disorder?

 

It's easier to assume that Cyndane took a wrong turn somewhere, and Rand accidentally witnessed her [unishment.

 

Keeping the real plan from the other Forsaken is entirely plausible.

 

Moridin doesn't make a big deal of Cyndane's punishment to the others. When Demandred asks after her, Moridin replies simply "She is not your concern." Saying that she'd being punished ensures that none of the others go looking for her or get too curious about what she's up to, and so don't stick their noses into the trap.

 

Edit to add:

 

Also, regarding the idea that Rand would "assume that she deserves whatever happening to her," that's clearly not how he reacted. The last time he was confronted by her, he couldn't bring himself to act against her, even though she would have totally deserved it. And when he sees her being dragged away at the end of the dream sequence, he "jumped forward, reaching for her, but he was too late." His first instinct is to save her.

 

So, if it is a trap, there is some evidence that Rand/Lews Therin, given the opportunity, would try to save a genuinely distressed Mierin Eronaile.