Chapter 11

[Vardar]

I only just found the excerpt today, and found it to be very enjoyable. I am very grateful for Brandon Sanderson for finishing the series off as I will have been reading it for twenty years come release day, and it means an awful lot to me and to many of you lot on here. I don't mind that Mr Sanderson doesn't write Mat in a way expect and I take many of your concerns on board. But I am just glad the series will be finished and I'll be getting my sweaty mits on it in January.

 

The only problem I have with Mat in this excerpt is brushing off with the "incidents" with Tylin. I'm clearly not a psychologist, but perhaps he is in denial that he was raped by her? It may seem to be a logical reaction at least to someone with Mat's attitude towards women, at least, but I'd prefer if he pondered on it a bit more; Perhaps with a change of subject in his thoughts so we can tell he is conflicted.

 

Still I'm over joyed that the series is nearing completion, and I can't wait until January! Bravo Brandon.

 

Dude...he wasnt raped by her. He could have left anytime he wanted to. Hell, he could have kick her ass and tied her up himself anytime he wanted to. It was just awkward for him that he was not the one doing the chasing. The moment he actually wanted to leave he had no problem leaving.

 

Yes, he could have kicked her ass, if he had been willing to risk getting thrown into prison or out of town, I think he probably could have avoided the headsman if only because of Elayne's and Nynaeve's intervention. He may not have gotten raped, but he was at the very least coerced very strongly. Which is so much better.

 

Eh...he was a willing participate IMO after she had to force him into it. It certainly was rape on her part if this event were taken to the police, but the reality is that he could have stopped it if he had really wanted to. I think this much is implied throughout the encounters, especially considering this series is a PG series.

 

Oh it was Rape. I've never heard someone read it and not consider it rape actually. From a US legal definition, it's not rape (Sadly), but I'm not sure how he could have stopped it and not have any negative repercussions.

 

And even if it's rape, doesn't mean a man can't enjoy himself. (doesn't he think that at one point in the books, the not willing but still enjoying himself)

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I don't know what you mean there, to be honest, as he states he kill him in a duel... So maybe he gave him time to get away but he didn't get away. No point crying over milk that hasn't been spilt! His duel was a success, you're bothered because you think the assassin would run away. I don't see it like that.

 

Maybe the assassin was arrested, maybe he was prideful and expected to win, maybe Jame locked him up himself.

 

It would have been weirder to me had he broken the law, to be honest with you, so I'm surprised that bothered you most of all. Different strokes eh? This is partly what gets me with people complaining. If everyone had to write down what annoyed them we'd eventually compile a list that includes every line in the excerpt. Call me defeatist but I think it's better to avoid complaining like this as much as possible or we will end up with a thread that is boring, chock a block with complaints and when you want to discuss the actual story you can't because you get drowned out by dissenting voices. Oh wait, that's this thread already. I tried to voice my concerns about this earlier but was shouted down by people defending their 'right' to criticise... I never said they had no right, heck I said it was all valid, the point I made is there should be two threads - one for discussing events in the book and one for discussing BS and how he wrote c11, two perfectly valid threads but also very distinct and separate threads.

 

But when everyone, including Luckers, disagrees and would rather mix the two distinct conversations together you end up with this stinking mess.

[he who comes with a bong]

I don't know what you mean there, to be honest, as he states he kill him in a duel... So maybe he gave him time to get away but he didn't get away. No point crying over milk that hasn't been spilt! His duel was a success, you're bothered because you think the assassin would run away. I don't see it like that.

 

Maybe the assassin was arrested, maybe he was prideful and expected to win, maybe Jame locked him up himself.

 

It would have been weirder to me had he broken the law, to be honest with you, so I'm surprised that bothered you most of all. Different strokes eh? This is partly what gets me with people complaining. If everyone had to write down what annoyed them we'd eventually compile a list that includes every line in the excerpt. Call me defeatist but I think it's better to avoid complaining like this as much as possible or we will end up with a thread that is boring, chock a block with complaints and when you want to discuss the actual story you can't because you get drowned out by dissenting voices. Oh wait, that's this thread already. I tried to voice my concerns about this earlier but was shouted down by people defending their 'right' to criticise... I never said they had no right, heck I said it was all valid, the point I made is there should be two threads - one for discussing events in the book and one for discussing BS and how he wrote c11, two perfectly valid threads but also very distinct and separate threads.

 

But when everyone, including Luckers, disagrees and would rather mix the two distinct conversations together you end up with this stinking mess.

 

yah if we had a thread about bs i bet it would be locked within a day.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I only just found the excerpt today, and found it to be very enjoyable. I am very grateful for Brandon Sanderson for finishing the series off as I will have been reading it for twenty years come release day, and it means an awful lot to me and to many of you lot on here. I don't mind that Mr Sanderson doesn't write Mat in a way expect and I take many of your concerns on board. But I am just glad the series will be finished and I'll be getting my sweaty mits on it in January.

 

The only problem I have with Mat in this excerpt is brushing off with the "incidents" with Tylin. I'm clearly not a psychologist, but perhaps he is in denial that he was raped by her? It may seem to be a logical reaction at least to someone with Mat's attitude towards women, at least, but I'd prefer if he pondered on it a bit more; Perhaps with a change of subject in his thoughts so we can tell he is conflicted.

 

Still I'm over joyed that the series is nearing completion, and I can't wait until January! Bravo Brandon.

 

Dude...he wasnt raped by her. He could have left anytime he wanted to. Hell, he could have kick her ass and tied her up himself anytime he wanted to. It was just awkward for him that he was not the one doing the chasing. The moment he actually wanted to leave he had no problem leaving.

 

Yes, he could have kicked her ass, if he had been willing to risk getting thrown into prison or out of town, I think he probably could have avoided the headsman if only because of Elayne's and Nynaeve's intervention. He may not have gotten raped, but he was at the very least coerced very strongly. Which is so much better.

 

Eh...he was a willing participate IMO after she had to force him into it. It certainly was rape on her part if this event were taken to the police, but the reality is that he could have stopped it if he had really wanted to. I think this much is implied throughout the encounters, especially considering this series is a PG series.

 

Oh it was Rape. I've never heard someone read it and not consider it rape actually. From a US legal definition, it's not rape (Sadly), but I'm not sure how he could have stopped it and not have any negative repercussions.

 

And even if it's rape, doesn't mean a man can't enjoy himself. (doesn't he think that at one point in the books, the not willing but still enjoying himself)

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you here but there was the assault part with the knife at the neck...Then there was the sexy time part, where was the knife during the sexy bubbles?

 

Logistically I find it hard to imagine, sexually I find it hard to imagine being turned on and yet mentally scared etc. I know that for women rape is a very different experience with doesn't involve sexual arousal.

 

Legally it wasn't rape in WoT land either, and I'd be surprised if Mat himself was to feel that way, ie, I don't think he is repressing it and due to some cognitive dissonance he is able to look at it differently. I think hr genuinely doesn't feel raped.

 

I think the conversation we have about it is totally valid and we are right to label it as rape, but Mat is the one who should tell us if it was assault with a knife followed by sexy time or if it was sexy time with knife at his neck the whole time and how he feels about it. Anyway, there's been times in all our lives when we'd have rather not have had sexy time but done it anyway, like you're sick or something. I think Mat feels like that about it, rather than the scared and trapped feelings we normally associate with rape. Technically it was rape, yeh, but he doesn't feel sexually assaulted and in the end that's all that matters.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I don't know what you mean there, to be honest, as he states he kill him in a duel... So maybe he gave him time to get away but he didn't get away. No point crying over milk that hasn't been spilt! His duel was a success, you're bothered because you think the assassin would run away. I don't see it like that.

 

Maybe the assassin was arrested, maybe he was prideful and expected to win, maybe Jame locked him up himself.

 

It would have been weirder to me had he broken the law, to be honest with you, so I'm surprised that bothered you most of all. Different strokes eh? This is partly what gets me with people complaining. If everyone had to write down what annoyed them we'd eventually compile a list that includes every line in the excerpt. Call me defeatist but I think it's better to avoid complaining like this as much as possible or we will end up with a thread that is boring, chock a block with complaints and when you want to discuss the actual story you can't because you get drowned out by dissenting voices. Oh wait, that's this thread already. I tried to voice my concerns about this earlier but was shouted down by people defending their 'right' to criticise... I never said they had no right, heck I said it was all valid, the point I made is there should be two threads - one for discussing events in the book and one for discussing BS and how he wrote c11, two perfectly valid threads but also very distinct and separate threads.

 

But when everyone, including Luckers, disagrees and would rather mix the two distinct conversations together you end up with this stinking mess.

 

yah if we had a thread about bs i bet it would be locked within a day.

 

Yeah but that would make Luckers a hypocrite, so no, it wouldn't be locked in a day, as we are not administered by hypocrites. Or we are. I don't know. I think you're implying we are and I'm adding to it here with suggestive language.

[he who comes with a bong]

I don't know what you mean there, to be honest, as he states he kill him in a duel... So maybe he gave him time to get away but he didn't get away. No point crying over milk that hasn't been spilt! His duel was a success, you're bothered because you think the assassin would run away. I don't see it like that.

 

Maybe the assassin was arrested, maybe he was prideful and expected to win, maybe Jame locked him up himself.

 

It would have been weirder to me had he broken the law, to be honest with you, so I'm surprised that bothered you most of all. Different strokes eh? This is partly what gets me with people complaining. If everyone had to write down what annoyed them we'd eventually compile a list that includes every line in the excerpt. Call me defeatist but I think it's better to avoid complaining like this as much as possible or we will end up with a thread that is boring, chock a block with complaints and when you want to discuss the actual story you can't because you get drowned out by dissenting voices. Oh wait, that's this thread already. I tried to voice my concerns about this earlier but was shouted down by people defending their 'right' to criticise... I never said they had no right, heck I said it was all valid, the point I made is there should be two threads - one for discussing events in the book and one for discussing BS and how he wrote c11, two perfectly valid threads but also very distinct and separate threads.

 

But when everyone, including Luckers, disagrees and would rather mix the two distinct conversations together you end up with this stinking mess.

 

yah if we had a thread about bs i bet it would be locked within a day.

 

Yeah but that would make Luckers a hypocrite, so no, it wouldn't be locked in a day, as we are not administered by hypocrites. Or we are. I don't know. I think you're implying we are and I'm adding to it here with suggestive language.

 

No thats not what i mean i mean it would be more than likely locked from all the arguing that would start, im still suprised the one i started on the general forum hasnt gotten locked.(the smell of lanfear). ive seen a few that have been locked once the arguing has started and a lot of people hold to their views so strongly, that it is hard not to see why.

[he who comes with a bong]

And on an off topic note. I am still suprised that i have never been told to change my name on here.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

OK good point, well explained. You're probably right. It's a shame then that this is the best possible result.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

And on an off topic note. I am still suprised that i have never been told to change my name on here.

 

Haha! Surely not, your name is just an audio description.

 

Talking about audio descriptions - I find that any problems with the 'voice' of a character are immediately solved by listening to the audiobooks. Which are epic and Krammer (excuse me if I have forgotten his name) does an excellent job of Mat's voice.

 

So anyway, if Mat hasn't got Justice with him, which isn't conclusive there's just nothing to suggest he has, then I guess that means Rand isn't going to get an alliance by using the sword... Or.... Rand didn't order Mat to go to Ebu Dar at all... Maybe that's why the plan is so... Matty ... To sneak in, wear a disguise, make a back story, take no one along that can channel..

[Vardar]

I don't know what you mean there, to be honest, as he states he kill him in a duel... So maybe he gave him time to get away but he didn't get away. No point crying over milk that hasn't been spilt! His duel was a success, you're bothered because you think the assassin would run away. I don't see it like that.

 

Maybe the assassin was arrested, maybe he was prideful and expected to win, maybe Jame locked him up himself.

 

It would have been weirder to me had he broken the law, to be honest with you, so I'm surprised that bothered you most of all. Different strokes eh? This is partly what gets me with people complaining. If everyone had to write down what annoyed them we'd eventually compile a list that includes every line in the excerpt. Call me defeatist but I think it's better to avoid complaining like this as much as possible or we will end up with a thread that is boring, chock a block with complaints and when you want to discuss the actual story you can't because you get drowned out by dissenting voices. Oh wait, that's this thread already. I tried to voice my concerns about this earlier but was shouted down by people defending their 'right' to criticise... I never said they had no right, heck I said it was all valid, the point I made is there should be two threads - one for discussing events in the book and one for discussing BS and how he wrote c11, two perfectly valid threads but also very distinct and separate threads.

 

But when everyone, including Luckers, disagrees and would rather mix the two distinct conversations together you end up with this stinking mess.

 

No I mean, they spent time saying how long it takes to get a duel now right? It felt like it takes quite a while, weeks, months or more. Then an assassin comes into the city, intent on killing the Empress. How long does this assassin hang around? Weeks? Months? Just seems a little odd.

 

I personally have no issues with BS's writing style, I may be one of the few. I'm just pointing out things I found/find odd. I can't see a good assassn hanging around for months in an inn where his cover was blown. Doesn't make much sense.

[Vardar]

I'm not disagreeing with you here but there was the assault part with the knife at the neck...Then there was the sexy time part, where was the knife during the sexy bubbles?

 

Logistically I find it hard to imagine, sexually I find it hard to imagine being turned on and yet mentally scared etc. I know that for women rape is a very different experience with doesn't involve sexual arousal.

 

Legally it wasn't rape in WoT land either, and I'd be surprised if Mat himself was to feel that way, ie, I don't think he is repressing it and due to some cognitive dissonance he is able to look at it differently. I think hr genuinely doesn't feel raped.

 

I think the conversation we have about it is totally valid and we are right to label it as rape, but Mat is the one who should tell us if it was assault with a knife followed by sexy time or if it was sexy time with knife at his neck the whole time and how he feels about it. Anyway, there's been times in all our lives when we'd have rather not have had sexy time but done it anyway, like you're sick or something. I think Mat feels like that about it, rather than the scared and trapped feelings we normally associate with rape. Technically it was rape, yeh, but he doesn't feel sexually assaulted and in the end that's all that matters.

 

It'd be easier to understand if you'd been through something like it. It's closer to the "Boss forcing herself upon you" type situation than the back alley one. Legally in WoT world, you're probably right, since it takes place in her country, she makes the law.

 

But I don't the knife is what made it rape, it's her usage of her power and authority. As to the repressing, he shows examples of repressing what happened, if you look closely. He starts to associate certain things with those events, the color pink, lace, etc. He gets spooked and paranoid in situations similiar to the ones she put him in. He has all the tell-tale signs of abuse (although the authors make it seem more comediac than anything). Look out for it next time you read it.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

It took the rapist's perspective for you to see it as rape? Hmm...

 

Hey, you have used the word rapist when you mean rape victim.

 

[Removed]

[he who comes with a bong]

And on an off topic note. I am still suprised that i have never been told to change my name on here.

 

Haha! Surely not, your name is just an audio description.

 

Talking about audio descriptions - I find that any problems with the 'voice' of a character are immediately solved by listening to the audiobooks. Which are epic and Krammer (excuse me if I have forgotten his name) does an excellent job of Mat's voice.

 

So anyway, if Mat hasn't got Justice with him, which isn't conclusive there's just nothing to suggest he has, then I guess that means Rand isn't going to get an alliance by using the sword... Or.... Rand didn't order Mat to go to Ebu Dar at all... Maybe that's why the plan is so... Matty ... To sneak in, wear a disguise, make a back story, take no one along that can channel..

 

 

Actually my name has nothign to do with an audio description. hahahahahahah i would say more but i wont just google bong lol.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I don't know what you mean there, to be honest, as he states he kill him in a duel... So maybe he gave him time to get away but he didn't get away. No point crying over milk that hasn't been spilt! His duel was a success, you're bothered because you think the assassin would run away. I don't see it like that.

 

Maybe the assassin was arrested, maybe he was prideful and expected to win, maybe Jame locked him up himself.

 

It would have been weirder to me had he broken the law, to be honest with you, so I'm surprised that bothered you most of all. Different strokes eh? This is partly what gets me with people complaining. If everyone had to write down what annoyed them we'd eventually compile a list that includes every line in the excerpt. Call me defeatist but I think it's better to avoid complaining like this as much as possible or we will end up with a thread that is boring, chock a block with complaints and when you want to discuss the actual story you can't because you get drowned out by dissenting voices. Oh wait, that's this thread already. I tried to voice my concerns about this earlier but was shouted down by people defending their 'right' to criticise... I never said they had no right, heck I said it was all valid, the point I made is there should be two threads - one for discussing events in the book and one for discussing BS and how he wrote c11, two perfectly valid threads but also very distinct and separate threads.

 

But when everyone, including Luckers, disagrees and would rather mix the two distinct conversations together you end up with this stinking mess.

 

No I mean, they spent time saying how long it takes to get a duel now right? It felt like it takes quite a while, weeks, months or more. Then an assassin comes into the city, intent on killing the Empress. How long does this assassin hang around? Weeks? Months? Just seems a little odd.

 

I personally have no issues with BS's writing style, I may be one of the few. I'm just pointing out things I found/find odd. I can't see a good assassn hanging around for months in an inn where his cover was blown. Doesn't make much sense.

 

You seriously read that and thought it was days or weeks?

 

Here's the bit from the excerpt that must have confused you:

 

 

"That’s because of a Seanchan rule,” Kathana said, “from the new Empress, may she live forever. She didn’t forbid duels entirely, and a bloody good thing she didn’t. The Ebou Dari won’t riot at something as unimportant as being conquered, but take away our duels...then you’ll see something. Anyway, duels now have to be witnessed by an official of the government. You can’t duel without answering a hundred different questions and paying a fee. It’s drained the whole life out of it all.”

“It has saved lives,” Jame said. “Men can still die by each other’s knives if they are determined. They simply have to give themselves time to cool down and think.”

“Duels aren’t about thinking,” Kathana said. “But I suppose it does mean that I don’t have to worry about your pretty face being cut up on the street.”

 

And

“There are assassins,” Mat repeated calmly, “after Tuon?”

Jame nodded. “Mostly foreigners who don’t know the right way of things. Several have moved through the inn. Only one admitted the reason he was here. I saw that his blood fed the dusty earth of the dueling grounds.”

“Then I count you a friend,” Mat said, standing. He reached into his bundle and took out his hat and put it upon his head. “Who is behind it? Who has brought them in, put the bounty on her head?”

 

This made you think that there must have been weeks/months between being caught and the duel taking place.

The whole story - from leaving the Two Rivers to right now has only lasted a couple of years. The Seachan only arrived a handful of months back.

 

To me it says this - they need to fill out forms and have an official watch. Most duels could happen on the same day providing it is not a public holiday or outwith business hours.

 

Look, no offense, but you being annoyed by that particular bit is a little over the top. I don't think waiting to have a duel is like applying for a mortgage. Also, it's worth mentioning that the assassin wouldn't have been hanging around. The person who killed him would have been able to restrain him too.

 

Is it that you mean that duels would have to happen between two consenting parties? In this case, yes, with the knowledge that he would lose the duel an assassin would not likely agree to have it.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

It'd be easier to understand if you'd been through something like it. It's closer to the "Boss forcing herself upon you" type situation than the back alley one. Legally in WoT world, you're probably right, since it takes place in her country, she makes the law.

 

But I don't the knife is what made it rape, it's her usage of her power and authority. As to the repressing, he shows examples of repressing what happened, if you look closely. He starts to associate certain things with those events, the color pink, lace, etc. He gets spooked and paranoid in situations similiar to the ones she put him in. He has all the tell-tale signs of abuse (although the authors make it seem more comediac than anything). Look out for it next time you read it.

 

I think that you're right in everything you've said above and moreover I don't claim to have a better understanding of the scene etc.

 

See when you have a gun or other people around 'helping' you to commit the rape crime then you are more likely to be able to 'overpower' your victim. In general terms, armed or otherwise, Mat would beat Tylin in a wrestling match. Take that knife out of the equation and everything changes.

 

The part which is quoted above is not sexual assault, it's assault. The sexual part is yet to happen. Sure there is some sexual harassment but it's not sexual assault yet it is sexual harassment combined with vanilla assault.

 

I don't want to get right down into the nitty gritty of it all, and this could be the reason why there is a discussion about it (because RJ himself didn't want to spell it out as definitive fact in a book which young people will read) but a knife at the throat - that wouldn't last long during the sexy bubbles ;-)

 

Maybe my karma sutra knowledge needs sprucing up, but I can see that knife getting dislodged pretty quick.

 

That's all I meant with logistically.

 

The other thing is that rape for a man is different for a woman in the male - woman scenario. A man needs to become sexually aroused for sex. It's a law of physics, not my opinion on rape.

 

Therefore, I can safely say, as a male, that I would rather be in Mat's position than to be raped in any other way I can think of. That doesn't make it any more excusable but I can sure as heck say that I would prefer it over prison sex any day.

[Vardar]

This made you think that there must have been weeks/months between being caught and the duel taking place.

The whole story - from leaving the Two Rivers to right now has only lasted a couple of years. The Seachan only arrived a handful of months back.

 

To me it says this - they need to fill out forms and have an official watch. Most duels could happen on the same day providing it is not a public holiday or outwith business hours.

 

Look, no offense, but you being annoyed by that particular bit is a little over the top. I don't think waiting to have a duel is like applying for a mortgage. Also, it's worth mentioning that the assassin wouldn't have been hanging around. The person who killed him would have been able to restrain him too.

 

Is it that you mean that duels would have to happen between two consenting parties? In this case, yes, with the knowledge that he would lose the duel an assassin would not likely agree to have it.

 

I did. But then again I work for the Fed, and know how long things take when paper work, witnesses and such are involved. Weeks was the first thing that came to mind, not days.

 

Schedule an appointment to meet with an official to consider the offer

have the offer considered, get the appropriate paperwork

Fill out the appropriate paperwork, turning it in

Wait for the paperwork to come back, approved or not

Sign up for a day and time to have the duel (Huge step, how many duels do they have a day? How many witnesses do they have to spread the work out, they have grounds so appointments are involved)

Finally have the duel.

 

What the hell is the assassin doing during this time. He has to be involved in the duel process somehow, I doubt you can request to duel someone who has no idea.

[Vardar]

It'd be easier to understand if you'd been through something like it. It's closer to the "Boss forcing herself upon you" type situation than the back alley one. Legally in WoT world, you're probably right, since it takes place in her country, she makes the law.

 

But I don't the knife is what made it rape, it's her usage of her power and authority. As to the repressing, he shows examples of repressing what happened, if you look closely. He starts to associate certain things with those events, the color pink, lace, etc. He gets spooked and paranoid in situations similiar to the ones she put him in. He has all the tell-tale signs of abuse (although the authors make it seem more comediac than anything). Look out for it next time you read it.

 

I think that you're right in everything you've said above and moreover I don't claim to have a better understanding of the scene etc.

 

See when you have a gun or other people around 'helping' you to commit the rape crime then you are more likely to be able to 'overpower' your victim. In general terms, armed or otherwise, Mat would beat Tylin in a wrestling match. Take that knife out of the equation and everything changes.

 

The part which is quoted above is not sexual assault, it's assault. The sexual part is yet to happen. Sure there is some sexual harassment but it's not sexual assault yet it is sexual harassment combined with vanilla assault.

 

I don't want to get right down into the nitty gritty of it all, and this could be the reason why there is a discussion about it (because RJ himself didn't want to spell it out as definitive fact in a book which young people will read) but a knife at the throat - that wouldn't last long during the sexy bubbles ;-)

 

Maybe my karma sutra knowledge needs sprucing up, but I can see that knife getting dislodged pretty quick.

 

That's all I meant with logistically.

 

The other thing is that rape for a man is different for a woman in the male - woman scenario. A man needs to become sexually aroused for sex. It's a law of physics, not my opinion on rape.

 

Therefore, I can safely say, as a male, that I would rather be in Mat's position than to be raped in any other way I can think of. That doesn't make it any more excusable but I can sure as heck say that I would prefer it over prison sex any day.

 

 

The knife wasn't the important part, her power was. He considers overpowering her, then doesn't. Know why? Because it's still her palace and she can make his life living hell, he knows it. The knife was just to make her feel like she had more power, she knew he couldn't run.

 

As to the bolded part, not entirely true. You don't have as much control over that part as you think. Your mind can say no, while your body says yes, and that doesn't excuse it

 

As to the last part, if you say so, I can't tell you your opinion. But either way, it doesn't feel good or make you happy. (I'm not personally familiar with the latter, only the former)

[b3arz3rg3r]

So anyway, if Mat hasn't got Justice with him, which isn't conclusive there's just nothing to suggest he has, then I guess that means Rand isn't going to get an alliance by using the sword... Or.... Rand didn't order Mat to go to Ebu Dar at all... Maybe that's why the plan is so... Matty ... To sneak in, wear a disguise, make a back story, take no one along that can channel..

 

I always thought that idea of Rand using Justice as a bargaining tool as odd. No one in Seanchan would recognize the blade and without verification the claim that the sword is really Justice isn't worth much.

 

What use would someone who can channel be?

One of the things good about the Seanchan is that they don't think just because someone can channel he or she has any more brains than any other. We've seen so many stupid Aes Sedai and other than Logain none of the Asha'man have shown any real individual drive so far. With the Seanchan a channeler would be more of a liability than an asset.

 

Took some time to reflect, and a few things do bother me.

 

Petra as a warrior. Really? What happened to the Inn they wanted to establish. I didn't know the Seanchan conscipted. There better be a story behind that.

 

Roemandred probably had the show destroyed for the lulz and Petra returned to become a guard while Valan Luca became a guerrilla fighter in Murandy. Or something equally ludicrous.

 

 

How the heck did Jame "see" Mat's hidden knives. Mat is pretty pro at hiding knives, second to none, except maybe Thom. I would hope someone of his caliber doesn't walk differently while he's wearing them at this point, the odds of Jame noticing them are pretty slim, especially the ones he mentioned.

 

He did it because he's one of those fanficky NSC super warriors who are gifted with prescience and can look straight through the antics of a player character because the gamemaster says so.

[Vardar]

Roemandred probably had the show destroyed for the lulz and Petra returned to become a guard while Valan Luca became a guerrilla fighter in Murandy. Or something equally ludicrous.

 

Lol.

 

 

He did it because he's one of those fanficky NSC super warriors who are gifted with prescience and can look straight through the antics of a player character because the gamemaster says so.

 

HA! Yea I didn't make the Fan connection until I read this thread.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

 

The knife wasn't the important part, her power was. He considers overpowering her, then doesn't. Know why? Because it's still her palace and she can make his life living hell, he knows it. The knife was just to make her feel like she had more power, she knew he couldn't run.

 

That is a really important consideration, you're right to point it out again. That's the over hanging, back of the mind threat. Not the actual knife in the throat threat, which is a real and physical one. So there is the real current threat of the knife and the intangible threat of the power Tylin has in general. The real threat of the knife is what is facilitating the event, not the power aspect. You're not wrong, Tylin is in control in a wider aspect too, it's just that in that moment it's only the knife which is influencing Mat. He was about to leave a minute before, after all, so take the knife out of the situation and the rape wouldn't have happened, in my opinion. Which is why I struggle to think why he didn't leave after the knife was removed. Again, this is my limited understanding of the knife-karma-sutra.

 

As to the bolded part, not entirely true. You don't have as much control over that part as you think. Your mind can say no, while your body says yes, and that doesn't excuse it

 

You're right!! I was once an adolescent male myself!!! Ha, that being the positive aspect of what you're saying.

 

What I was meaning though is that it is arousal, voluntary or otherwise. Whereas with a female it is not arousal, it's all physical rejection. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that women can be raped and all physical and emotional responses are saying "No". A man can't rape without at least a tiny part of him, subconscious or otherwise, that says "Yes". A slight distinction that doesn't make it ethically better.

[Vardar]

That is a really important consideration, you're right to point it out again. That's the over hanging, back of the mind threat. Not the actual knife in the throat threat, which is a real and physical one. So there is the real current threat of the knife and the intangible threat of the power Tylin has in general. The real threat of the knife is what is facilitating the event, not the power aspect. You're not wrong, Tylin is in control in a wider aspect too, it's just that in that moment it's only the knife which is influencing Mat. He was about to leave a minute before, after all, so take the knife out of the situation and the rape wouldn't have happened, in my opinion. Which is why I struggle to think why he didn't leave after the knife was removed. Again, this is my limited understanding of the knife-karma-sutra.

 

Mat thinks he can stop the knife and take it from her, the threat of the knife isn't what makes him go along. It's the thought of a woman's scorn.

 

 

You're right!! I was once an adolescent male myself!!! Ha, that being the positive aspect of what you're saying.

 

What I was meaning though is that it is arousal, voluntary or otherwise. Whereas with a female it is not arousal, it's all physical rejection. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that women can be raped and all physical and emotional responses are saying "No". A man can't rape without at least a tiny part of him, subconscious or otherwise, that says "Yes". A slight distinction that doesn't make it ethically better.

 

I see what you're saying now. If you stumble walking down the stairs and break your neck because your knee weakened, does that mean deep down inside you said yes and wanted to fall down the stairs? Or was it a totally unconscience response from your body.

 

Now mayhaps everyone is different, but arousal can occur for strange reasons, or no reason at all. Sometimes it just happens and had nothing to do with you. It's not your body saying yes.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

So anyway, if Mat hasn't got Justice with him, which isn't conclusive there's just nothing to suggest he has, then I guess that means Rand isn't going to get an alliance by using the sword... Or.... Rand didn't order Mat to go to Ebu Dar at all... Maybe that's why the plan is so... Matty ... To sneak in, wear a disguise, make a back story, take no one along that can channel..

 

I always thought that idea of Rand using Justice as a bargaining tool as odd. No one in Seanchan would recognize the blade and without verification the claim that the sword is really Justice isn't worth much.

 

What use would someone who can channel be?

One of the things good about the Seanchan is that they don't think just because someone can channel he or she has any more brains than any other. We've seen so many stupid Aes Sedai and other than Logain none of the Asha'man have shown any real individual drive so far. With the Seanchan a channeler would be more of a liability than an asset.

 

What use wouldn't they be!? The point I was making was mostly that if Rand told Mat to go and negotiate with Tuon he'd probably offer him an Ashaman to take along. So, if Rand ordered the negotiation he'd probably give him a channeller and people have been speculating here ever since Justice popped up about what it'd be used for. If Rand wanted to use it as a negotiating tool and he sent Mat to negotiate he'd give him the sword. I see this as potential evidence that Mat is operating independently.

 

Also, they'd recognise it probably, there are probably statutes of AH with Justice kicking about Seachan.

 

If only Rand knows what Justice is and it has no particular function then I guess he intends on putting it in a display case in his personal abode one day. Pretty underwhelming but hey, it's possible.

 

How the heck did Jame "see" Mat's hidden knives. Mat is pretty pro at hiding knives, second to none, except maybe Thom. I would hope someone of his caliber doesn't walk differently while he's wearing them at this point, the odds of Jame noticing them are pretty slim, especially the ones he mentioned.

 

He did it because he's one of those fanficky NSC super warriors who are gifted with prescience and can look straight through the antics of a player character because the gamemaster says so.

 

Yes that's a possibility. Do you think the same thing when you watch movies/tv shows and someone spots a gun on another person? Mike / Walt in Breaking Bad springs to mind. I don't see it as being unusual overall.

[he who comes with a bong]

So back on topic and not about who got raped or was it rape. Rand should have just hidden there, instead of going up to fight the Last Battle. What do you all think that means. I think that this chapter is after they all meet up at the fields, and Rand is dead, basically everyone is just trying to get to those they love to spend the last few moments that they can have with each other. Out of everything in the chapter that we read, that has stood out the most to me. Meaning Rand went to do his thing and he failed somehow.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Mat thinks he can stop the knife and take it from her, the threat of the knife isn't what makes him go along. It's the thought of a woman's scorn.

 

 

Ah I see, because being raped is bad, terrible, but not as bad as annoying her. Got to avoid the scorn. So you're saying that Mat is about as emotionally affected by this as if he'd forgotten her birthday? I see. Let's not be facetious (like I just was and like you are in the next point you make...)

 

I see what you're saying now. If you stumble walking down the stairs and break your neck because your knee weakened, does that mean deep down inside you said yes and wanted to fall down the stairs? Or was it a totally unconscience response from your body.

 

Now mayhaps everyone is different, but arousal can occur for strange reasons, or no reason at all. Sometimes it just happens and had nothing to do with you. It's not your body saying yes.

 

 

Ok, so I've already said I think the stair analogy is a bit facetious. I am obviously drawing attention to the fact that females, when being raped, don't contribute to the arrangement by becoming sexually aroused. Possibly I just don't know anything about rape and as such I haven't realised that females can become aroused during rape. To be honest with you I find the whole notion abhorrant.

 

[Removed]

[Rocky_Outcrop]

So back on topic and not about who got raped or was it rape. Rand should have just hidden there, instead of going up to fight the Last Battle. What do you all think that means. I think that this chapter is after they all meet up at the fields, and Rand is dead, basically everyone is just trying to get to those they love to spend the last few moments that they can have with each other. Out of everything in the chapter that we read, that has stood out the most to me. Meaning Rand went to do his thing and he failed somehow.

 

The bit you're talking about:

 

Mat wished them luck. The Rahad had fought off every invasion so far. Light. Rand should have just hidden there, instead of going up to fight the Last Battle. The Trollocs and Darkfriends would have come for him, and the Rahad would have left them all unconscious in an alleyway, their pockets turned inside out and their shoes sold for soup money.

 

It is past tense. The whole book is past, but this part is a thought process which is thinking about something that sounds past tensy within the past tense.

 

I don't know if it signifies that he is dead. In fact, it's not definitive that it has happened, just that Rand has gone 'up there'. So, Rand probably announced it like this

 

"See you later, Mat, good luck getting Tuon to make peace and all that, hopefully there is a world left after the last battle is done."

 

"So you're going to fight it yourself?"

 

"Aye, just me really. There was the whole discussion about Callandor and circles and who'll lead and all that but basically it's me doing the whole fightyfight part, 'cause I'm the Dragon, bro. I'm actually just about to go up there now. By the time you arrive in Ebu Dar I'll be well on my way there, like." Rand then further supplimented, "Oh, and cheers for bringing Moiraine back by the way, man, that's great. I was well worried about who to take and the only person I'd chosen so far was Nyneave. Nyneave, man, can you believe it? Time's have changed eh?"

 

"Tell me about it, man, sucks to be getting older eh? Can't believe I ended up getting married to that crazy Seanchan bird."

 

"Ha ha, Tuon's not all that bad man."

 

"Rather you than me!" Mat said, his cheeks suddenly flushed as he remembered he was talking to the Dragon Reborn. "Ahh I mean-"

 

"Don't worry about it, Mat, bro, Jeez, cut yourself some slack. Honestly, I feel quite honoured to be the one, you know, 'The One', I've already got three birds as a result." He let out a small chuckle as he saw his old friend's embarrassment fade. "Look, buddy, I might not make it back, if all else fails make sure that Tuon doesn't go completely shafting us all, ok? Talk to Avi about it, it's crazy. I'll catch up with you when I'm back."

 

"Cheers man, Rand, I hope it goes well... I mean, obviously I want the world to survive but like I'm hoping you make it through ok. Ciao."

 

"Catch you later, buddy."

 

To me it certainly means that the last battle, in Mat's opinion at least, is one that Rand is fighting and is 'up there' (presumably SG), which is very interesting, because that's the first definitive example of someone thinking that Rand specifically is the one fighting as opposed to all people who stand in the light.

 

Edited: just wanted to expand on what was an otherwise dull conversation.