Sword Play

[clu7ch]

Well, at least influenced like other people who were influenced by the DO.

At the time, the DO didn't have reason to fear LTT (Unless there was a previous attempt made by his soul in a previous age, to do some thwarting, no beginnings no ends bullshit)

 

Or at least he had no reason to fear LTT unnecessarily, if you catch my drift. The DO sets a lot of stuff in motion to influence Rand because he was LTT, who was more than problematic to the DO.

[Neophyte]

Well, at least influenced like other people who were influenced by the DO.

At the time, the DO didn't have reason to fear LTT (Unless there was a previous attempt made by his soul in a previous age, to do some thwarting, no beginnings no ends bullshit)

 

Or at least he had no reason to fear LTT unnecessarily, if you catch my drift. The DO sets a lot of stuff in motion to influence Rand because he was LTT, who was more than problematic to the DO.

 

Um ... said "no beginnings no ends bullshit" is sort of the whole basis of the Wheel of Time. I can pretty much guarantee that the Dark One knows who the Dragon is, whatever name happens to be attached to that incarnation, and that the Dragon, in whatever incarnation he's in, is the enemy. The Dark One, speaking to Rahvin in the prologue of LoC, refers to him as "MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON." That syntax at least implies that the title "Dragon" is not the Dark One's primary designation for him; the Dark One has likely known him by other names as well.

 

Besides, what I'm saying is that we have no indications that Lews Therin Telamon was ever influenced to behave in such a bloodthirsty way. The attitudes/memories of his contemporaries, and of his reincarnated self, just don't support that hypothesis.

[clu7ch]

lawl. I understand that the no beginnings is the premise for the story, it was said in lawls.

[Suttree]

At the time, the DO didn't have reason to fear LTT (Unless there was a previous attempt made by his soul in a previous age, to do some thwarting, no beginnings no ends bullshit)

 

Think you may be joking but that soul is the Champion of the Light. There have been endless attempts in previous ages.

 

edit: just noticed your post above...

[holiday]

I think that Rand is going to be doing some serious swordfighting, at least at the end of the book. He has Hawkwing's sword, which he views as extra-significant. It would be a let down for me if that significance only consisted of a way to get the Seanchan to follow him. He spent the first six books practicing the sword at least as assiduously as he did learning to channel or learning to govern. It's been central to his character (and according to Be'lal was important to LTT as well), and so it would be odd to see it play no part in the Last Battle. Also, he still has the wound in his side from Ishamael, received in a sword vs. quarterstaff melee. There have been a heap foreshadowings pointing towards that wound coming full circle in one way or another. I would not be surprised at all to see a Yoda/Dooku scenario near the climax of aMoL, in which Rand and Ishamael match OP to TP stroke for stroke, and so decide to settle it the old-fashioned way (I think this might also be prefigured a bit in Mat's spar with Galad and Gawyn, and Hammar's story about Jearom losing to a farmer with a quarterstaff. I always like to imagine that that farmer was Ishamael, even though it's probably absurd).

[Neophyte]

He spent the first six books practicing the sword at least as assiduously as he did learning to channel or learning to govern.

 

Then he got his hand blown off. All that practice is essentially non-existent now, since it was done with two hands.

 

If he gets a new shiny black hand, and it works as well as his old one, then he could be useful with a sword, but I'd be terribly disappointed if the fate of the universe came down to a swordfight. The whole point of everything leading up to VoG is that Rand is not a weapon - he thought he was, but that was wrong. The Dark One cannot be overcome by sheer force.

[thisguy]

He spent the first six books practicing the sword at least as assiduously as he did learning to channel or learning to govern.

 

Then he got his hand blown off. All that practice is essentially non-existent now, since it was done with two hands.

 

If he gets a new shiny black hand, and it works as well as his old one, then he could be useful with a sword, but I'd be terribly disappointed if the fate of the universe came down to a swordfight. The whole point of everything leading up to VoG is that Rand is not a weapon - he thought he was, but that was wrong. The Dark One cannot be overcome by sheer force.

Sure, but he'll probably be fighting a bunch of others before trying to seal the DO away in his room.

[Neophyte]

He spent the first six books practicing the sword at least as assiduously as he did learning to channel or learning to govern.

 

Then he got his hand blown off. All that practice is essentially non-existent now, since it was done with two hands.

 

If he gets a new shiny black hand, and it works as well as his old one, then he could be useful with a sword, but I'd be terribly disappointed if the fate of the universe came down to a swordfight. The whole point of everything leading up to VoG is that Rand is not a weapon - he thought he was, but that was wrong. The Dark One cannot be overcome by sheer force.

Sure, but he'll probably be fighting a bunch of others before trying to seal the DO away in his room.

 

Yes - with channeling, I'd imagine. See: Maradon

[thisguy]

If he's carrying callandor and/or justice around, somebody's getting stabbed: prediction

[clu7ch]

If he fights fain, it will be with a blade. Still, i'd like to see him use Callandor as a martial weapon.

[Neophyte]

If he fights fain, it will be with a blade. Still, i'd like to see him use Callandor as a martial weapon.

 

If he fights Fain with a blade, he's stupid and deserves to die from the cuts Fain will give him.

[holiday]

Then he got his hand blown off. All that practice is essentially non-existent now, since it was done with two hands.

 

If he gets a new shiny black hand, and it works as well as his old one, then he could be useful with a sword, but I'd be terribly disappointed if the fate of the universe came down to a swordfight. The whole point of everything leading up to VoG is that Rand is not a weapon - he thought he was, but that was wrong. The Dark One cannot be overcome by sheer force.

1. One of the first things he says after losing his hand is that he will have to learn the sword again. Not that he was done with it, or that one-handed swording was impossible, but just that he had hit a setback. Then, in the next book, he picks up Justice, which he keeps with him even after his epiphany. A strange thing to do for someone for whom the sword is now useless.

 

2. How is carrying/using a sword incompatible with him being a man not a weapon? The point of that realization is that Asha'man are human beings with dignity instead of simple killing machines, and that they shouldn't have to live with a death wish. I don't see how Rand using a sword again violates this new understanding.

 

3. Rand learning one-handed sword forms would be one of the less absurd developments in his character recently.

[Mulk]

earlier in this thread, I said:

 

One thing to keep in mind: Rand can't channel the OP while linked with two other women and one of them controlling the flows through Callandor. It may be that he will have to resort to the sword while Moiraine or Nynaeve are channeling their hearts out.

 

We know he has to use Callandor again and that he has to use it is linked with two women and one of them controlling the flows. Ergo, while he will be drawing on the Power, he will not be the one directing it. It's entirely possible and maybe even likely that since there is only one set of channeling hands available in that set up (not his, and so not nearly as effective and efficient in the destruction of foes), that he will have to defend himself with the sword during the sequence.

 

I pull this out because some seem to think that all that needs to happen whenever a non-channeler shows up is that Rand go Maradon on his/her/their butts. We know for certain of at least one time yet future when it will not be possible for him to do so, and to discount the blade he carries as a weapon is to ignore the way things are set up at this point. Given the amount of time RJ gave to Rand's sword training, I have to think it will have some payoff at the end. Maybe I'll be wrong, but at this point I don't think I am.

[thisguy]

earlier in this thread, I said:

 

One thing to keep in mind: Rand can't channel the OP while linked with two other women and one of them controlling the flows through Callandor. It may be that he will have to resort to the sword while Moiraine or Nynaeve are channeling their hearts out.

 

We know he has to use Callandor again and that he has to use it is linked with two women and one of them controlling the flows. Ergo, while he will be drawing on the Power, he will not be the one directing it. It's entirely possible and maybe even likely that since there is only one set of channeling hands available in that set up (not his, and so not nearly as effective and efficient in the destruction of foes), that he will have to defend himself with the sword during the sequence.

 

I pull this out because some seem to think that all that needs to happen whenever a non-channeler shows up is that Rand go Maradon on his/her/their butts. We know for certain of at least one time yet future when it will not be possible for him to do so, and to discount the blade he carries as a weapon is to ignore the way things are set up at this point. Given the amount of time RJ gave to Rand's sword training, I have to think it will have some payoff at the end. Maybe I'll be wrong, but at this point I don't think I am.

Not to mention that he had the ashaman trained with the sword and when Taim ridiculed the training Rand said "there may come a time when they cannot channel...." etc, etc, yada. We have no idea how long the last battle will take. He may be too exhausted to channel at some points.

[Neophyte]

1. One of the first things he says after losing his hand is that he will have to learn the sword again. Not that he was done with it, or that one-handed swording was impossible, but just that he had hit a setback. Then, in the next book, he picks up Justice, which he keeps with him even after his epiphany. A strange thing to do for someone for whom the sword is now useless.

 

1. He says he will have to ... but then never does. Have we seen him practicing with Justice? He wears it for symbolic purposes.

 

 

2. How is carrying/using a sword incompatible with him being a man not a weapon? The point of that realization is that Asha'man are human beings with dignity instead of simple killing machines, and that they shouldn't have to live with a death wish. I don't see how Rand using a sword again violates this new understanding.

 

2. Concentrating on re-learning to use a sword now, when he has other things to do, would be evidence of the wrong mindset. No, using a sword does not automatically make one inhuman. But for Rand, it would be evidence of the wrong mindset.

 

 

3. Rand learning one-handed sword forms would be one of the less absurd developments in his character recently.

 

3. There isn't really any evidence that the folks in Randland have developed "one-handed sword forms." Certainly no one around Rand has shown them, and he doesn't have a teacher to help him learn, even if he did have time to practice, which he doesn't. And it would be absurd for him to do so. If he's worried about hand-to-hand fighting, he'd be best served to learn the Aiel spear-and-buckler style. But he hasn't bothered, because channeling is so much more effective.

 

Rand only lost his hand a few weeks ago (it seems longer because of the overlapping timelines, but it has been at most three months by the end of Towers of Midnight). He hasn't exactly had time for practice since then, and truthfully, neither the need nor the desire. Before VoG, he was becoming increasingly obsessed with the Choedan Kal and the True Power. Since VoG, he's not been focused on weapons at all, aside from his demonstration outside Maradon, which he admitted was a mistake. "I am not to fight this war," he told Bashere afterwards.

 

Rand is just not focused on the sword as a weapon right now. Both Justice and Callandor are symbols, and Callandor is a tool, but not for it's ability to stab people.

 

Look, is there the possibility of a dramatic stabbing with one of the two swords? Sure, I can't rule that out. But I imagine it would be much like way Rand stabbed Ishamael in Tel'aran'rhiod/Tear. It was the climax of a fight that really had nothing to do with swords.

 

Also:

 

 

Given the amount of time RJ gave to Rand's sword training, I have to think it will have some payoff at the end. Maybe I'll be wrong, but at this point I don't think I am.

 

Jordan devoted much of Rand's storyline (concurrent with his sword training) to Rand's attempts to become hard and how they were slowly destroying him. Going back to the sword would be a huge step for Rand - a huge step backwards. I'm not sure I'd call it a "payoff," but Rand's time learning sword was very important to his character development - in the wrong direction.

 

And for thisguy: if he's too exhausted to channel, he won't be in any condition to fight with a sword either. Remember his condition at the end of various fights where he exhausted himself with the Power - Asmodean in Rhuidean, on Kin Tovere's tower outside of Cairhien, etc. He was in no condition to raise a sword after any of those.

 

There simply isn't a situation in which using a sword is advantageous for him now, unless he's cut off from the Power. And if he's cut off from the Power, he's not proficient enough with the sword in his current condition to make him much of a threat to a trained warrior.

[thisguy]

Gaidal cain, uses two swords. Which means each sword is used one-handedly. I do agree, I don't remember any other character who uses a sword one handed or two weapons. But, since we can do it here, they can do it there.

 

Perhaps, I didn't explain that well, If the last battle lasts 3 days, for the sake of argument. And, let's say, shayol ghul is going to need most of his power, I'd say about two days of that should be hand to hand fighting for the guy. That's if he's involved in the regular old battles much. He's going to need to conserve his magic.

[holiday]

 

1. He says he will have to ... but then never does. Have we seen him practicing with Justice? He wears it for symbolic purposes.

 

2. Concentrating on re-learning to use a sword now, when he has other things to do, would be evidence of the wrong mindset. No, using a sword does not automatically make one inhuman. But for Rand, it would be evidence of the wrong mindset.

 

3. There isn't really any evidence that the folks in Randland have developed "one-handed sword forms." Certainly no one around Rand has shown them, and he doesn't have a teacher to help him learn, even if he did have time to practice, which he doesn't. And it would be absurd for him to do so. If he's worried about hand-to-hand fighting, he'd be best served to learn the Aiel spear-and-buckler style. But he hasn't bothered, because channeling is so much more effective.

 

Rand only lost his hand a few weeks ago (it seems longer because of the overlapping timelines, but it has been at most three months by the end of Towers of Midnight). He hasn't exactly had time for practice since then, and truthfully, neither the need nor the desire. Before VoG, he was becoming increasingly obsessed with the Choedan Kal and the True Power. Since VoG, he's not been focused on weapons at all, aside from his demonstration outside Maradon, which he admitted was a mistake. "I am not to fight this war," he told Bashere afterwards.

 

Rand is just not focused on the sword as a weapon right now. Both Justice and Callandor are symbols, and Callandor is a tool, but not for it's ability to stab people.

 

Look, is there the possibility of a dramatic stabbing with one of the two swords? Sure, I can't rule that out. But I imagine it would be much like way Rand stabbed Ishamael in Tel'aran'rhiod/Tear. It was the climax of a fight that really had nothing to do with swords.

 

Also:

 

Jordan devoted much of Rand's storyline (concurrent with his sword training) to Rand's attempts to become hard and how they were slowly destroying him. Going back to the sword would be a huge step for Rand - a huge step backwards. I'm not sure I'd call it a "payoff," but Rand's time learning sword was very important to his character development - in the wrong direction.

 

And for thisguy: if he's too exhausted to channel, he won't be in any condition to fight with a sword either. Remember his condition at the end of various fights where he exhausted himself with the Power - Asmodean in Rhuidean, on Kin Tovere's tower outside of Cairhien, etc. He was in no condition to raise a sword after any of those.

 

There simply isn't a situation in which using a sword is advantageous for him now, unless he's cut off from the Power. And if he's cut off from the Power, he's not proficient enough with the sword in his current condition to make him much of a threat to a trained warrior.

Given the abruptness of Rand's new cosmic unity with LTT and his access to all his knowledge, skills, and memories, I wouldn't be surprised if he knows how to be at least decent with one hand, adapting Aran'gar/Osan'gar techniques for a longsword or some such jazz. He may not need to practice with it or be super-focused on learning it after VoG, because he may just know it in the same miraculous way that he just knows all of LTT's moves now.

 

I never associated Rand learning to swordfight with becoming hard. It always seemed to me to be a legitimate step towards learning to defend himself when the Power is unavailable or when he is unable to grasp it, and it also provided a tie to Tam, a way to learn many things from Lan, a connection to the normal, non-channeling world, and something physical to focus on so that he wouldn't go nuts dealing with courtiers, backstabbers, and the weight of the universe on his shoulders.

 

I'm not saying that some drawn-out swordfight is guaranteed, but rather that it's a distinct possibility, given the importance of swordfighting to the series. However, if you are correct, I wouldn't be terribly surprised, just a little disappointed.

[thisguy]

Originally, I thought the sword was a tie to Tam and his childhood beliefs, then it became a way to survive - physically. Then, it became a way for him to stave off madness.

[Neophyte]

Gaidal cain, uses two swords. Which means each sword is used one-handedly. I do agree, I don't remember any other character who uses a sword one handed or two weapons. But, since we can do it here, they can do it there.

 

Perhaps, I didn't explain that well, If the last battle lasts 3 days, for the sake of argument. And, let's say, shayol ghul is going to need most of his power, I'd say about two days of that should be hand to hand fighting for the guy. That's if he's involved in the regular old battles much. He's going to need to conserve his magic.

 

I know using a sword one-handed can be done. Most swords historically are designed for such use. But the styles of use are wholly unfamiliar to Rand, and don't seem to be common among those around him.

 

As far as his involvement in physical fighting over a period of several days, I refer you again to what he said to Bashere. He is not to fight that war.

 

 

Given the abruptness of Rand's new cosmic unity with LTT and his access to all his knowledge, skills, and memories, I wouldn't be surprised if he knows how to be at least decent with one hand, adapting Aran'gar/Osan'gar techniques for a longsword or some such jazz. He may not need to practice with it or be super-focused on learning it after VoG, because he may just know it in the same miraculous way that he just knows all of LTT's moves now.

 

I never associated Rand learning to swordfight with becoming hard. It always seemed to me to be a legitimate step towards learning to defend himself when the Power is unavailable or when he is unable to grasp it, and it also provided a tie to Tam, a way to learn many things from Lan, a connection to the normal, non-channeling world, and something physical to focus on so that he wouldn't go nuts dealing with courtiers, backstabbers, and the weight of the universe on his shoulders.

 

I'm not saying that some drawn-out swordfight is guaranteed, but rather that it's a distinct possibility, given the importance of swordfighting to the series. However, if you are correct, I wouldn't be terribly surprised, just a little disappointed.

 

Well, there was discussion at length elsewhere about how his inherited memories would or would not enhance his sword fighting skills. Suffice to say that I don't think they did very much.

 

Also, given the incident with Be'lal, it seems that Lews Therin was trained mostly in the two-handed style Rand learned as well. I think it highly doubtful that Lews Therin Telamon engaged in the bloodsport associated with the osan'gar/aran'gar daggers.

 

I'll address your second paragraph in conjunction with thisguy's second statement.

 

But I'll address your third one this way - if there is some drawn-out swordfight, I'd only be a little surprised, unfortunately, but I'd be VERY disappointed.

 

 

Originally, I thought the sword was a tie to Tam and his childhood beliefs, then it became a way to survive - physically. Then, it became a way for him to stave off madness.

 

I imagine it was that, at first - and as holiday says, it was "a connection to the normal, non-channeling world, and something physical to focus on so that he wouldn't go nuts dealing with courtiers, backstabbers, and the weight of the universe on his shoulders."

 

The important thing is that all of that is in the past tense - and all concurrent with his attempts to grow hard and also distance himself emotionally from what was happening. Like psychological development for most people, it was not simply one thing or the other.

 

But for him to return to it now, when he doesn't need an escape from channeling, when he's come to terms with his destiny, and his relationship with Tam, and the women he loves, and when he's acquired the skills and temperament to deal with the responsibilities around him, would be a step backward. He no longer needs swordplay to stave off the madness (indeed, that proved ineffective), and he no longer needs a sword to survive - he can reliably channel with greater skill and effect.

 

All the reasons for him to return to the sword are gone. And he's also out of time. I simply don't see it happening.

[thisguy]

Oh, I have no memory of him saying that.

 

I agree with you about him not having time to train. I don't agree that it's a step backwards, though. In the end... it's a big whatever.

[Neophyte]

Whatever, huh?

 

<grumble grumble ... kids these days ... grumble grumble ... no respect ... grumble grumble ... get off my lawn>

 

No, um, I mean, I'm young and hip, I can roll with that. That's how you kids say it, right?

[thisguy]

Whatever, huh?

 

<grumble grumble ... kids these days ... grumble grumble ... no respect ... grumble grumble ... get off my lawn>

 

No, um, I mean, I'm young and hip, I can roll with that. That's how you kids say it, right?

Lol. I'm not old, but not that young either. Just not in the mood to debate, I suppose. If you want a more in depth answer - I don't see how him continuing to practice something that I believe he enjoys is a step back. In fact, some of his more peaceful moments (internally) have come from his practice with the sword. I think it kept him together.

[clu7ch]

Maybe we should look at it this way. Rand will probably need all the help he can get, weapons, channeling, chess, etc.

What happens if he's ran headlong through the battle chopping trollocs to bits with weaves, and gets way ahead of everyone else in his vanguard, and moridin or someone pops up and gentles him? Sword would come in mighty handy till nyn shows up and plugs him back in.

[Neophyte]

Yes. If that happens, then he'd have to defend himself with ...

 

... wait, doesn't he have Maiden bodyguards for that?

[clu7ch]

my hypothesis created a possibility for them to be otherwise preoccupied. while not necessarily a feasible hypothesis, it's not a stretch either. He promises to keep them around and ditches them soon after. Maiden's are also not indestructible.

 

He's also often too proud to say 'sic em' and cower.