Seanchan and the AoL

[thisguy]

Per Moiraine - don't trust the AS. The AS evolves and devolves just like any other organization. They're nothing like the AS from LTT's time. They don't even trust each other. At all.

 

The only reason Moir said that is because her and Siuan's search was forced underground. Gitara had the foretelling and the BA immediately started slaughtering Amrylin's and the DR hunters. This exposed their existence for basically the first time. Because of those actions Moir never knew who to trust. It has nothing to do with the normal culture of the WT.

 

Btw who has ever claimed they are perfect. From the start I said there are good, bad and average ones just like the rest of the world. They can not be held to a different standard.

 

Finally you can not judge the pre-unified WT as being the norm for them trusting each other. There was a Forsaken residing in hiding, the BA was forcing Elaida to give false orders sowing chaos, the WT was split and Fain's influence was causing distrust to the point that sisters were being asssaulted by other ajahs. You need to understand all of those things when discussing the current level of trust before Eggy evicted the BA and reunifid the WT.

 

As for your Seanchan comment you lost me? Could you expand on that please?

It has everything to do with with their culture. They don't even share weaves. The reason the AS are weaker is not just because they can't handle as much power but because they don't trust each other.

Why can't I blame them? If they were better unified those things might not have happened? In fact, you say I shouldn't see it as part of their culture and then say the distrust can be lain at Fain and the Forsaken's feet. Fain? They were waaaaaaay screwed up before him. The Forsaken? Everyone has to deal with them. You'd think the AS would have done a better job.

 

The Seanchan - The AS are suffering for how they tried to deal with Hawkwing 2000 years ago. Karma.

[Vardar]

I think it's the best RL analogy we're going to find, although I still say the miliatry one is more apt. Since all the training and equipping was done by one source, which is why the WT is responsible.

[Suttree]

Why can't I blame them? If they were better unified those things might not have happened? In fact, you say I shouldn't see it as part of their culture and then say the distrust can be lain at Fain and the Forsaken's feet. Fain? They were waaaaaaay screwed up before him. The Forsaken? Everyone has to deal with them. You'd think the AS would have done a better job.

 

Yes that is what was written in the books. The current situation in the WT was very much exasperated by an in residence Forsaken, Fain's touch amplyifing distrust, and the BA countering Elaida's orders through Alviarin to specifcally sow chaos. Are you disputing that the DO targeted them and tried to bring about it's downfall? That was what he entire Mesaana storyline was about!

 

I hope to say this for the last time because you keep forcing me to repeat. No one is saying they are perfect, I have stated over and over again that they have failed. But to ignore many of the major reasons for why the WT is in it's current state is to ignore what RJ wrote. You can not turn a blind eye to the fact that the shadow targeting them has played a major role in their down fall. So the AS are responsible now for the actions of the forsaken because they havent done a good enough job countering them? The thought is preposterous.

 

The Seanchan - The AS are suffering for how they tried to deal with Hawkwing 2000 years ago. Karma.

 

This doesn't even make sense. Yes Bonwhin had a dispute with Hawkwing but AS were still his advisors and held many governor positions throughout his empire. It wasn't until Ishy came along and poisened his mind that things went south. Why do you think he brags about sending Hawkwing's armies over seas as "sealing two fates". It had nothing to do with the AS. Hell Ishy poisend him so much(most likely used compulsion) that he refused healing on his death bed!

 

I think it's the best RL analogy we're going to find, although I still say the miliatry one is more apt. Since all the training and equipping was done by one source, which is why the WT is responsible.

 

Yes responsible for rooting them out, not to blame for their actions.

[Vardar]

Yes responsible for rooting them out, not to blame for their actions

 

Again, we're using two different definitions of the same word here. It seems we agree. But to blame or not, they'll be held accountable.

[thisguy]

I am putting them in the same shoes as everyone else - like Tear, Illian, Andor.... there are DFs everywhere. And, Fain didn't go to the Tower until around Book 4. The Tower was already screwed up by then. That's my point.

 

As for Hawkwing, it makes complete sense. If Bonwin hadn't pushed and tried to completely control Hawkwing, there's a good chance Ish would never have had a chance to "poison" the AS in Hawkwing's ear. You just lay it all at Ish's feet. Bonwin's own actions helped Ish more than anything else. Hawkwing (I keep wanting to say Hawking) was a loyal ally to the Tower. Bonwin wanted to govern every piece of the Empire. Too much meddling.

[Lisa Campbell]

The Seanchan - The AS are suffering for how they tried to deal with Hawkwing 2000 years ago. Karma.

 

This doesn't even make sense. Yes Bonwhin had a dispute with Hawkwing but AS were still his advisors and held many governor positions throughout his empire. It wasn't until Ishy came along and poisened his mind that things went south. Why do you think he brags about sending Hawkwing's armies over seas as "sealing two fates". It had nothing to do with the AS. Hell Ishy poisend him so much(most likely used compulsion) that he refused healing on his death bed!

 

I don't get your stance here Thisguy. Tuon/Seanchan wanted ALL Ma'rath Damane leashed. They took the opportunity of the raid after collecting intelligence and planning the actual attack. It had a twofold mission, capture as many as you can and weaken them after with the Bloodknives.

[thisguy]

The Seanchan - The AS are suffering for how they tried to deal with Hawkwing 2000 years ago. Karma.

 

This doesn't even make sense. Yes Bonwhin had a dispute with Hawkwing but AS were still his advisors and held many governor positions throughout his empire. It wasn't until Ishy came along and poisened his mind that things went south. Why do you think he brags about sending Hawkwing's armies over seas as "sealing two fates". It had nothing to do with the AS. Hell Ishy poisend him so much(most likely used compulsion) that he refused healing on his death bed!

 

I don't get your stance here Thisguy. Tuon/Seanchan wanted ALL Ma'rath Damane leashed. They took the opportunity of the raid after collecting intelligence and planning the actual attack. It had a twofold mission, capture as many as you can and weaken them after with the Bloodknives.

 

Yeah, I get that. I'm saying the bad relations between Artur Hawkwing and the AS a couple of thousand years ago lead to the Seanchan's loathing of channelers.

[Lisa Campbell]

If only those outriggers were in the works... could have found out then. RANFO (Read and never find out)! Can I claim that?

[thisguy]

If only those outriggers were in the works... could have found out then. RANFO (Read and never find out)! Can I claim that?

lol... claim it in the Light, child. ;)

[Lisa Campbell]

My humblest thanks Asunawa

[Suttree]

The Seanchan - The AS are suffering for how they tried to deal with Hawkwing 2000 years ago. Karma.

 

This doesn't even make sense. Yes Bonwhin had a dispute with Hawkwing but AS were still his advisors and held many governor positions throughout his empire. It wasn't until Ishy came along and poisened his mind that things went south. Why do you think he brags about sending Hawkwing's armies over seas as "sealing two fates". It had nothing to do with the AS. Hell Ishy poisend him so much(most likely used compulsion) that he refused healing on his death bed!

 

I don't get your stance here Thisguy. Tuon/Seanchan wanted ALL Ma'rath Damane leashed. They took the opportunity of the raid after collecting intelligence and planning the actual attack. It had a twofold mission, capture as many as you can and weaken them after with the Bloodknives.

 

Yeah, I get that. I'm saying the bad relations between Artur Hawkwing and the AS a couple of thousand years ago lead to the Seanchan's loathing of channelers.

 

Not true, even if you take away the fact that Ishy would had plated the see of mistrust and poisened his sons against AS(one again before Ishy came along the issues betwen Bonwhin and Hawkwing had been squashed. He had AS advisors and they held many governor positions in his empire). Afte IShy came there was a bounty on AS heads and he refused the healing that would have saved his life. That big of a change reeks of compulsion.

 

What led to Luthair's loathing of channelers along with that mistrust was the channelers found on the other continent and how they went about their actions. In fact the BWB says sepcifically "When he discovered the cutthroat nature of the Aes Sedai, who ruled Seanchan, that distrust grew into outright hatred."

[thisguy]

The Seanchan - The AS are suffering for how they tried to deal with Hawkwing 2000 years ago. Karma.

 

This doesn't even make sense. Yes Bonwhin had a dispute with Hawkwing but AS were still his advisors and held many governor positions throughout his empire. It wasn't until Ishy came along and poisened his mind that things went south. Why do you think he brags about sending Hawkwing's armies over seas as "sealing two fates". It had nothing to do with the AS. Hell Ishy poisend him so much(most likely used compulsion) that he refused healing on his death bed!

 

I don't get your stance here Thisguy. Tuon/Seanchan wanted ALL Ma'rath Damane leashed. They took the opportunity of the raid after collecting intelligence and planning the actual attack. It had a twofold mission, capture as many as you can and weaken them after with the Bloodknives.

 

Yeah, I get that. I'm saying the bad relations between Artur Hawkwing and the AS a couple of thousand years ago lead to the Seanchan's loathing of channelers.

 

Not true, even if you take away the fact that Ishy would had plated the see of mistrust and poisened his sons against AS(one again before Ishy came along the issues betwen Bonwhin and Hawkwing had been squashed. He had AS advisors and they held many governor positions in his empire). Afte IShy came there was a bounty on AS heads and he refused the healing that would have saved his life. That big of a change reeks of compulsion.

 

What led to Luthair's loathing of channelers along with that mistrust was the channelers found on the other continent and how they went about their actions. In fact the BWB says sepcifically "When he discovered the cutthroat nature of the Aes Sedai, who ruled Seanchan, that distrust grew into outright hatred."

As you mentioned, there were issues between AS and Hawk before Ishy showed up. Yes, there was a big change. Yes, it may have been because of compusion. We actually cannot know.

Here's a question: do you think the AS on the other side of the world were so very different than the AS in Randland? If so, do you think the AS in Randland were better or worse? Obviously, you can't know. But, point is, my guess is the AS there fought the shadow, too. I think a big difference between you and I is that you put more stock in the AS than I do. If they were Aes Sedai that in Seanchan that exacerbated and cemented Hawkwing's distrust of channelers, is that still not the AS's fault?

[thisguy]

In fact, the way you look at Rand and his mistakes versus let's say Vard, is sort of me and you here. I take your view of Rand with the AS and you take Vard's view of Rand with the AS. There are differences, obviously. But, in my eyes, the Tower as a whole is not trustworthy. Many members or it are trustworthy but most of them are far from infallible and seem like, at the least, horrible busy bodies. If you took away their power in the OP they wouldn't, as a whole, seem much different than anyone else - some are nobles, some are peasants, some are merchants, some are good, evil, smart, dumb, greedy, selfish, kind, caring, etc.

[Suttree]

As you mentioned, there were issues between AS and Hawk before Ishy showed up. Yes, there was a big change. Yes, it may have been because of compusion. We actually cannot know.

Here's a question: do you think the AS on the other side of the world were so very different than the AS in Randland? If so, do you think the AS in Randland were better or worse? Obviously, you can't know. But, point is, my guess is the AS there fought the shadow, too. I think a big difference between you and I is that you put more stock in the AS than I do. If they were Aes Sedai that in Seanchan that exacerbated and cemented Hawkwing's distrust of channelers, is that still not the AS's fault?

 

We know per the BWB that they were extremely different. It makes a huge point of showing they were nothing alike. They hold no connection whatsoever to the WT or current AS. They hade been separated since the breaking and hold the same connection to the WT as the channelers on the Land of the Mad Men, which is to say none. Also it wasn't just ditrust of the channelers, it was society as a whole over there.

 

BWB

Before Hawkwing sent Luthair and his armies across the ocean, Seanchan was a constantly shifting quilt of nations of various sizes, mostly ruled by Aes Sedai. Any attempt to map the history of Seanchan would drive a cartographer to madness, for borders shifted with frequent wars as countries were swallowed whole or divided, and rebellions split off parts of others that sometimes grew into nationhood and sometimes were consumed.

 

Aes Sedai, who made open use of their power, formed temporary alliances with one another, as when following one of their number who had achieved a throne, but in reality it was every woman for herself, all scheming and plotting for advancement. Indeed, this was the way of everyone, not just Aes Sedai, throughout Seanchan. Those few who were truly faithful to their word were considered fools. Assassination was the most common cause of death among Aes Sedai, and among all who achieved power.

 

Almost since the Breaking Seanchan had been a land of intrigue and nearly constant warfare. Alliances were always temporary, usually for the space of a war and often not lasting the length of it. It was not uncommon for a nation allied to one side at the beginning of the war to be allied to the other at the end, and in more than a few instances nations shifted allegiance more than once in the course of a war. No nation trusted another.

 

That suspicious, scheming division was the primary reason that Luthair Paendrag and his descendants were able to conquer all of Seanchan. Some nations allied themselves with him against others, but none remained constant. Eventually Luthair Paendrag, whom the Seanchan had begun to call the Hammer, no longer trusted any of the native-born, nor did his descendants, or the descendants of the soldiers and retainers

 

As for how I view AS I have said numerous times "Btw who has ever claimed they are perfect. From the start I said there are good, bad and average ones just like the rest of the world. They can not be held to a different standard."

 

So please stop with the straw man that I am painting them in some infallible light.

[thisguy]

As you mentioned, there were issues between AS and Hawk before Ishy showed up. Yes, there was a big change. Yes, it may have been because of compusion. We actually cannot know.

Here's a question: do you think the AS on the other side of the world were so very different than the AS in Randland? If so, do you think the AS in Randland were better or worse? Obviously, you can't know. But, point is, my guess is the AS there fought the shadow, too. I think a big difference between you and I is that you put more stock in the AS than I do. If they were Aes Sedai that in Seanchan that exacerbated and cemented Hawkwing's distrust of channelers, is that still not the AS's fault?

 

We know per the BWB that they were extremely different. It makes a huge point of showing they were nothing alike. They hold no connection whatsoever to the WT or current AS. They hade been separated since the breaking and hold the same connection to the WT as the channelers on the Land of the Mad Men, which is to say none. Also it wasn't just ditrust of the channelers, it was society as a whole over there.

 

BWB

Before Hawkwing sent Luthair and his armies across the ocean, Seanchan was a constantly shifting quilt of nations of various sizes, mostly ruled by Aes Sedai. Any attempt to map the history of Seanchan would drive a cartographer to madness, for borders shifted with frequent wars as countries were swallowed whole or divided, and rebellions split off parts of others that sometimes grew into nationhood and sometimes were consumed.

 

Aes Sedai, who made open use of their power, formed temporary alliances with one another, as when following one of their number who had achieved a throne, but in reality it was every woman for herself, all scheming and plotting for advancement. Indeed, this was the way of everyone, not just Aes Sedai, throughout Seanchan. Those few who were truly faithful to their word were considered fools. Assassination was the most common cause of death among Aes Sedai, and among all who achieved power.

 

Almost since the Breaking Seanchan had been a land of intrigue and nearly constant warfare. Alliances were always temporary, usually for the space of a war and often not lasting the length of it. It was not uncommon for a nation allied to one side at the beginning of the war to be allied to the other at the end, and in more than a few instances nations shifted allegiance more than once in the course of a war. No nation trusted another.

 

That suspicious, scheming division was the primary reason that Luthair Paendrag and his descendants were able to conquer all of Seanchan. Some nations allied themselves with him against others, but none remained constant. Eventually Luthair Paendrag, whom the Seanchan had begun to call the Hammer, no longer trusted any of the native-born, nor did his descendants, or the descendants of the soldiers and retainers

Question: The BWB, was it compiled from RJ's notes? Did the AS fight the shadow over there?

[Suttree]

Question: The BWB, was it compiled from RJ's notes? Did the AS fight the shadow over there?

 

Yes, it was meant to be written as if a historian from our age was doing it. There are some small mistakes and contradiction in it however. It should be used mainly as a supplementary source.

 

I wouldn't say they fought the shadow so much as the shadow didn't really focus on them. They used the "exotics" they brought back from mirror worlds to eradicate the shadowspawn that were there.

[Lisa Campbell]

Yeah they fought the Shadow (or at least his minions) but the BWB is not completely gospel. There are some assumptions in there and no way of telling which are or aren't.

[thisguy]

Question: The BWB, was it compiled from RJ's notes? Did the AS fight the shadow over there?

 

Yes, it was meant to be written as if a historian from our age was doing it. There are some small mistakes and contradiction in it however. It should be used mainly as a supplementary source.

 

I wouldn't say they fought the shadow so much as the shadow didn't really focus on them. They used the "exotics" they brought back from mirror worlds to eradicate the shadowspawn that were there.

Who used the exoctics? The AS or Hawkwing? It must have been the AS who started it. How would a non-channeler make it to the mirror world?

[thisguy]

Yeah they fought the Shadow (or at least his minions) but the BWB is not completely gospel. There are some assumptions in there and no way of telling which are or aren't.

Yeah, I believe it. When I was but a young lad, I was a HUGE Tolkien fan. After a while, studying every book I could lay me little grubby hands on, I tried only to focus on what J.R.R. wrote himself and what his son compiled. I'm a bit distrustful with fan products. ;)

[Knivy]

One thing about that Moir quote.

 

You cant take it as truth. She believes it true, but she is AS herself. That what the Tower preaches, but the Children of the Light hold the opposite stance. The Children are no more darkfriends than the AS, even if they have an irrational hate. The Tower in the end is no more important than any other group.

[thisguy]

 

So please stop with the straw man that I am painting them in some infallible light.

I actually missed this. I'm not painting a straw man. Every time I have raised a doubt about the AS or Cadsuane, you bring up Moiraine's quote or something else about them fighting the shadow blah blah blah. Yeah, so did every nation who had any contact with the Shadow. Aridhol (sp?) did, didn't they?

They're imperfect and they seem to be like everyone else. If they want to be held in higher esteem than everyone else perhaps they should raise themselves to a much higher standard.

[thisguy]

One thing about that Moir quote.

 

You cant take it as truth. She believes it true, but she is AS herself. That what the Tower preaches, but the Children of the Light hold the opposite stance. The Children are no more darkfriends than the AS, even if they have an irrational hate.

 

Good point. Also, as I've said, Moir tells Rand in her note not to trust the AS. There's only a years time between the two points (maybe slightly more) and she had almost no contact with other AS in that time. Siuane before her stilling says she only received to letters from Moir, the last being from Tear.

[Suttree]

One thing about that Moir quote.

 

You cant take it as truth. She believes it true, but she is AS herself. That what the Tower preaches, but the Children of the Light hold the opposite stance. The Children are no more darkfriends than the AS, even if they have an irrational hate.

 

Good point. Also, as I've said, Moir tells Rand in her note not to trust the AS. There's only a years time between the two points (maybe slightly more) and she had almost no contact with them. Siuane before her stilling says she only received to letters from Moir, the last being from Tear.

 

All avaialable evidence in world and auhtor q& as shows it to be true. They have been the main force for three thousand years and they have a different mandate than any other group. Again they are the only reason anyone even rememebrs a LB is coming. They saved the world in the breaking, Trolloc Wars etc. This is indisputable it is simply the history that RJ wrote. We know for fact it is not simply dogma such as the CoL preach.

 

At this point this is unbelievably furstrating. Why will you not listen every time I say "Btw who has ever claimed they are perfect. From the start I said there are good, bad and average ones just like the rest of the world. They can not be held to a different standard.". I have posted that over 3 times now and you keep ignoring it so yes everytime you keep saying I claim they are infallible or the only force for good and that is a straw man.

[thisguy]

As for the use of exotics on Seanchan. My guess is that would have to be AS doing. If that is, seems they did a great job fighting the minion's of the DO over there for all of their faults. Seems like the AS on Rand's side of the world screwed with Hawkwing, then an ex AS really screwed with Hawkwing, and then foreign AS put the nail in the coffin.

[Suttree]

As for the use of exotics on Seanchan. My guess is that would have to be AS doing. If that is, seems they did a great job fighting the minion's of the DO over there for all of their faults. Seems like the AS on Rand's side of the world screwed with Hawkwing, then an ex AS really screwed with Hawkwing, and then foreign AS put the nail in the coffin.

 

You are patently absurd. End of.

 

This rapid posting without taking into account what is actually being said along with purposeful twisting of the facts is quite simply ridiculous. Defeating shadowspawn with zero central structure or channelers controlling them is not even remotely equivalent to what was done in the Trolloc Wars. In addition this constant insisitence that modern As are to blame for the actions of Forsaken do you no favors.