Seanchan and the AoL

[Mr Ares]

There's a difference between perception and reality but when the organization that makes you AS says that you are AS, you are AS. The organization has changed what makes a channeler an AS more than once. If the organization says you are then you are.

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

 

Look at the Three Oaths, not one oath swearing to defend the light. Don't you find that odd? I think RJ did this purposely. You're supposed to not know if you can trust the AS or not. There are very few AS that don't have something fishy about them - that we get to know somewhat. They even hide their knowledge of the OP from each other. Don't you find that odd?

No and no. To the second question, secrecy is not particularly odd. To the first, the reason to swear an Oath to defend the Light would be to counter a belief that the AS weren't serving the Light, in much the same way as the existing Oaths were put in place to help restore trust in a failing institution. You worry that the AS will lie to gain power - so they swear they will not lie. You worry they will use the OP to destroy their enemies, so they make themselves unable to. Unless there was already a widespread worry that AS were not serving the Light, the need for an Oath to do so does not exist. Further, such an Oath would be so vague as to be meaningless.

There's worry in the Tower that they're not serving the light. I don't agree. How would it be a counter? It would cement that they are serving the light. That makes no sense.

Stream of consciousness doesn't help with communication. Try to lay out your thoughts more clearly (and there's no need to double or triple post). As for how would it be a counter, I fail to see how it could be anything but - if you feel there is a problem with your not serving the Light, simply swear an Oath, and suddenly you must serve the Light. Of course, what constitutes serving the Light is, as already stated, incredibly open ended, leaving the Oath so vague as to be meaningless. A Yellow Heals one person a year - serving the Light. Not serving it hard, but still serving it.

[shortkut]

There's a difference between perception and reality but when the organization that makes you AS says that you are AS, you are AS. The organization has changed what makes a channeler an AS more than once. If the organization says you are then you are.

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

 

Look at the Three Oaths, not one oath swearing to defend the light. Don't you find that odd? I think RJ did this purposely. You're supposed to not know if you can trust the AS or not. There are very few AS that don't have something fishy about them - that we get to know somewhat. They even hide their knowledge of the OP from each other. Don't you find that odd?

No and no. To the second question, secrecy is not particularly odd. To the first, the reason to swear an Oath to defend the Light would be to counter a belief that the AS weren't serving the Light, in much the same way as the existing Oaths were put in place to help restore trust in a failing institution. You worry that the AS will lie to gain power - so they swear they will not lie. You worry they will use the OP to destroy their enemies, so they make themselves unable to. Unless there was already a widespread worry that AS were not serving the Light, the need for an Oath to do so does not exist. Further, such an Oath would be so vague as to be meaningless.

There's worry in the Tower that they're not serving the light. I don't agree. How would it be a counter? It would cement that they are serving the light. That makes no sense.

Stream of consciousness doesn't help with communication. Try to lay out your thoughts more clearly (and there's no need to double or triple post). As for how would it be a counter, I fail to see how it could be anything but - if you feel there is a problem with your not serving the Light, simply swear an Oath, and suddenly you must serve the Light. Of course, what constitutes serving the Light is, as already stated, incredibly open ended, leaving the Oath so vague as to be meaningless. A Yellow Heals one person a year - serving the Light. Not serving it hard, but still serving it.

then how was eggy an AS? all that made her AS was the WT or I guess Little Tower declaring her one. They did the same with the BA, ergo the BA were still AS. siple noncontradictory logic that agrees with what the book says. everyone should try it some day

[thisguy]

There's a difference between perception and reality but when the organization that makes you AS says that you are AS, you are AS. The organization has changed what makes a channeler an AS more than once. If the organization says you are then you are.

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

 

Look at the Three Oaths, not one oath swearing to defend the light. Don't you find that odd? I think RJ did this purposely. You're supposed to not know if you can trust the AS or not. There are very few AS that don't have something fishy about them - that we get to know somewhat. They even hide their knowledge of the OP from each other. Don't you find that odd?

No and no. To the second question, secrecy is not particularly odd. To the first, the reason to swear an Oath to defend the Light would be to counter a belief that the AS weren't serving the Light, in much the same way as the existing Oaths were put in place to help restore trust in a failing institution. You worry that the AS will lie to gain power - so they swear they will not lie. You worry they will use the OP to destroy their enemies, so they make themselves unable to. Unless there was already a widespread worry that AS were not serving the Light, the need for an Oath to do so does not exist. Further, such an Oath would be so vague as to be meaningless.

There's worry in the Tower that they're not serving the light. I don't agree. How would it be a counter? It would cement that they are serving the light. That makes no sense.

Stream of consciousness doesn't help with communication. Try to lay out your thoughts more clearly (and there's no need to double or triple post). As for how would it be a counter, I fail to see how it could be anything but - if you feel there is a problem with your not serving the Light, simply swear an Oath, and suddenly you must serve the Light. Of course, what constitutes serving the Light is, as already stated, incredibly open ended, leaving the Oath so vague as to be meaningless. A Yellow Heals one person a year - serving the Light. Not serving it hard, but still serving it.

I make a lot of these posts while at work while they come to me. If you'd like to not continue this conversation, I'm fine with that.

You can simply swear an oath not to serve the DO or his minions which is not incredibly open ended.

[Suttree]

then how was eggy an AS? all that made her AS was the WT or I guess Little Tower declaring her one. They did the same with the BA, ergo the BA were still AS. siple noncontradictory logic that agrees with what the book says. everyone should try it some day

 

Errmm because she meets the requirements and BA members do not. It is implicit that the WT serves the light and holds ready for the LB(it is stated numerous times in text). The BA is an organization in direct opposition to that and further working to bring the WT down. Multiple people have said over the course of this thread that they are AS in name only. False perception does not truly define what someone is. They are not working for the same goals, serving the same master and even have totally different oaths. Not sure what the issue is with that?

[thisguy]

then how was eggy an AS? all that made her AS was the WT or I guess Little Tower declaring her one. They did the same with the BA, ergo the BA were still AS. siple noncontradictory logic that agrees with what the book says. everyone should try it some day

 

Errmm because she meets the requirements and BA members do not. It is implicit that the WT serves the light and holds ready for the LB(it is stated numerous times in text). The BA is an organization in direct opposition to that and further working to bring the WT down. Multiple people have said over the course of this thread that they are AS in name only. False perception does not truly define what someone is. They are not working for the same goals, serving the same master and even have totally different oaths. Not sure what the issue is with that?

Implicit is not explicit. It should be implicit at this point that AS will not lie or use the power as a weapon except against DF but they still do.

 

You can not say she meets the requirements and say that the 3 oaths makes you AS. She didn't take the 3 oaths but was Amyrlin and, thus, an AS.

 

If members of an organization gives someone membership to the organization, they are members. Considering members of the Hall, The Keeper and the Mistress of Novices were DFs, that means members of the AS took orders from DFs. What exactly is the AS then? Inept?

 

If swearing on the oath rod to not follow the DO is flawed and useless, then so are all the oaths as around 15-20% of the members broke those oaths, too.

 

If the whole world and the Sisters think you're an AS, you're an AS for all practical purposes.

 

Edit to add: If adding posts is stream of consciousness, why is adding text to a post from minutes ago not stream of consciousness? It's the same thing, just your way is tidier. At the same time, if someone has already started to answer the original post, they may not see your after additions.

[Suttree]

Implicit is not explicit. It should be implicit at this point that AS will not lie or use the power as a weapon except against DF but they still do.

 

Examples of them lying our using the power as a weapon against non DFs or defense of their life? Not them spinning words or convincing themselves a la Elaida punishing Egwene because she believed she was a DF mind. Actual examples. Show me one and I'll show you a BA member.

 

You can not say she meets the requirements and say that the 3 oaths makes you AS. She didn't take the 3 oaths but was Amyrlin and, thus, an AS.

 

When did I say the three oaths are the only thing that makes you AS? There are a number of things that go into it and I have argued consistently over the years how flawed they are.

 

If members of an organization gives someone membership to the organization, they are members. Considering members of the Hall, The Keeper and the Mistress of Novices were DFs, that means members of the AS took orders from DFs. What exactly is the AS then? Inept?

 

No one argued that they are not inept at times. Your point however does nothing to further you argument on the status of BA. Again are you defined how people perceive you or what you truly are? Perception is not reality.

[thisguy]

No. You are saying that the tower is for the light - implicitly - thus, Egwene is a good choice because she serves the light. Yet, you said what makes an AS an AS is the 3 Oaths. On one hand you say you need to explicitly swear on the other hand you say a feeling is all you need. Which is it? You can't play both side of the coin. You said earlier in the conversation - in fact it's the bulk of your argument that BA are not AS because they swore of the oaths.

 

Again - if the organization says you are part of the organization and even votes you into positions of power and follows your orders, you are part of the organization. Perception is reality more often than not. You may think you have a terrible teacher and your teacher may not even know the subject matter he/she teaches you but if you're in her class looking for a good grade you're going to try and present things the way the teacher wants them to be presented. And, the organization - the University - is the one who made the person a teacher.

You can look up some cases of people hired as lawyers by white shoe law firms who never passed the bar. Guess what? They gave legal advice for years and everyone looked at them as lawyers. In the case we have in front of us - BA/AS - all of these women were trained and raised by the tower and given a ring and a shawl which they never took back. The BA are AS.

[shortkut]

what makes an AS then?

 

if as you're saying it only means serving the light, then novices and accepted and any nonDF channeler associated with the white tower.

 

the only problem with your assertion is we are told countless times in the book that the 3 oaths are what makes one AS. Eggy and everyone she raised in salidar would not be AS by that definition. they were eventually accepted as AS because the other AS considered them that. The same is done for the BA. They have the ageless look and the same lifespan, so everyone, including AS, consider them AS. it was not until recently in the books that they were declared not to be AS.

 

you cannot make up your own definitions as to what an AS is or isn't. You also cannot say the cop analogy does not apply because it is one of the closet real world parallels we would have. the AS defend people and protect them as do cops. there are dirty and corrupt cop, and there are BA. there is IAB, there are the BA-hunters. Willful ignorance does not a convincing argument make.

[thisguy]

what makes an AS then?

 

if as you're saying it only means serving the light, then novices and accepted and any nonDF channeler associated with the white tower.

 

the only problem with your assertion is we are told countless times in the book that the 3 oaths are what makes one AS. Eggy and everyone she raised in salidar would not be AS by that definition. they were eventually accepted as AS because the other AS considered them that. The same is done for the BA. They have the ageless look and the same lifespan, so everyone, including AS, consider them AS. it was not until recently in the books that they were declared not to be AS.

 

you cannot make up your own definitions as to what an AS is or isn't. You also cannot say the cop analogy does not apply because it is one of the closet real world parallels we would have. the AS defend people and protect them as do cops. there are dirty and corrupt cop, and there are BA. there is IAB, there are the BA-hunters. Willful ignorance does not a convincing argument make.

An AS is an AS if she can channel and enough AS say that you are an AS. The Rebels were still AS even though they weren't working for the Tower. If Elaida had captured Moiraine, stripped her of her AS title and stilled her she would no longer be AS. That's what happened to Siuan. I think that both Siuan and Moiraine are more AS-worthy than Elaida yet she remained AS and Siuan did not.

[Suttree]

No. You are saying that the tower is for the light - implicitly - thus, Egwene is a good choice because she serves the light. Yet, you said what makes an AS an AS is the 3 Oaths. On one hand you say you need to explicitly swear on the other hand you say a feeling is all you need. Which is it?

 

Show me once in this thread where I claimed what makes an AS is the three oaths. Are you confusing me with someone?

 

 

You also cannot say the cop analogy does not apply because it is one of the closet real world parallels we would have. the AS defend people and protect them as do cops. there are dirty and corrupt cop, and there are BA. there is IAB, there are the BA-hunters. Willful ignorance does not a convincing argument make.

 

Did you see my earlier post short where I laid out the extra things needed for that analogy to fit? There is no union of "rogue cops" dedicated to the exact opposite mandate of keeping the peace, tearing down the police force and who are led by some police "chief" that is far more powerful than anyone the police force has. It is not even remotely the same.

[shortkut]

an analogy is an analogy because it fits for the most part. analogies are never exact, otherwise they are the same scenario with different actors.

 

did you see the part of my post where i said the book defines AS as having done the 3 oaths, not by wanting to help the light? we also have other AS who seem to care more about books or healing than TG. they are not really helping the light, but are they still AS?

[thisguy]

No. You are saying that the tower is for the light - implicitly - thus, Egwene is a good choice because she serves the light. Yet, you said what makes an AS an AS is the 3 Oaths. On one hand you say you need to explicitly swear on the other hand you say a feeling is all you need. Which is it?

 

Show me once in this thread where I claimed what makes an AS is the three oaths. Are you confusing me with someone?

 

 

You also cannot say the cop analogy does not apply because it is one of the closet real world parallels we would have. the AS defend people and protect them as do cops. there are dirty and corrupt cop, and there are BA. there is IAB, there are the BA-hunters. Willful ignorance does not a convincing argument make.

 

Did you see my earlier post short where I laid out the extra things needed for that analogy to fit? There is no union of "rogue cops" dedicated to the exact opposite mandate of keeping the peace, tearing down the police force and who are led by some police "chief" that is far more powerful than anyone the police force has. It is not even remotely the same.

It doesn't matter, man. IF the organization says they are AS, they are AS. The end. As for the 3 oaths - you said the BA were not AS because of the 3 oaths. That was the majority of your argument.

 

You argument has now swung to some implicitly being for the light argument. The AS never tell you to not serve the DO. If feeling someone was a certain way was enough, there would never have been a need for the 3 oaths.

[Suttree]

an analogy is an analogy because it fits for the most part. analogies are never exact, otherwise they are the same scenario with different actors.

 

did you see the part of my post where i said the book defines AS as having done the 3 oaths, not by wanting to help the light? we also have other AS who seem to care more about books or healing than TG. they are not really helping the light, but are they still AS?

 

Don't get your meaning. The WT and it's implicit mandate were formed far before the 3 oaths were enacted. Again none of what you say changes the fact that BA are AS in name only. Think you are taking the 3 oaths claim a bit too literally. The only reason the oaths were enacted was to show the world their use of the OP was not a threat. In reality it is simply one piece of what makes an AS in current times and it is unrelated to why the WT was founded(see Moiraine's quote provided). Again the BA was founded in direct opposition with the goal of serving the shadow and subverting the WT. Saying it is comparable to a "rogue" cop does not fit on any level.

 

It doesn't matter, man. IF the organization says they are AS, they are AS. The end. As for the 3 oaths - you said the BA were not AS because of the 3 oaths. That was the majority of your argument.

 

Never once said that. Either provide a quote showing what made you think it or give over on this line of discussion.

 

I found it slightly humorous that you won't touch the perception verse reality point. Are you personally defined thiguy by what people perceive you to be or what you truly are?

[thisguy]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

[Suttree]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

 

You did make yourself clear and it has been refuted...

 

Mr Ares

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

[shortkut]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

 

You did make yourself clear and it has been refuted...

 

Mr Ares

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

that does not refute anything. the only condition is that the WT considers you AS

 

your perception is that there are other conditions, however that is not reality.

[thisguy]

Here's another analogy, and one from the fantasy genre: Saruman was still an Istari until Gandalf the White cast him out of the order - that's after he sided with Sauron and after he bred orcs and after he killed a lot of Rohirrim and destroyed parts of Fanghorn Forest.

[thisguy]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

 

You did make yourself clear and it has been refuted...

 

Mr Ares

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

I don't agree. A person who is part of an organization is part of that organization until they are kicked out. that is true of every organization everywhere. The AS never said a word about BA not being AS in any public venue or to the AS themselves. Sorry, I do not agree.

 

Edit to add: I'll put this here since multiple posts bother people. Taim was an ashaman even though a DF. Rand made him one and the WHOLE POINT of the ashaman is to fight the DO at the final battle. Yet, they had a ton of DFs. All ashaman until Rand or someone deals with them.

[Suttree]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

 

You did make yourself clear and it has been refuted...

 

Mr Ares

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

I don't agree. A person who is part of an organization is part of that organization until they are kicked out. that is true of every organization everywhere. The AS never said a word about BA not being AS in any public venue or to the AS themselves. Sorry, I do not agree.

 

As others said. A criminal is a criminal from the minute they commit the crime(join the BA and swear to the shadow). That is reality, they don't need to be convicted(cast out and scorned) as that is who they truly are. A murderer can pretend to be innocent in court all they like. It doesn't change the fact that they are a murderer.

[thisguy]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

 

You did make yourself clear and it has been refuted...

 

Mr Ares

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

I don't agree. A person who is part of an organization is part of that organization until they are kicked out. that is true of every organization everywhere. The AS never said a word about BA not being AS in any public venue or to the AS themselves. Sorry, I do not agree.

 

As others said. A criminal is a criminal from the minute they commit the crime(join the BA and swear to the shadow). That is reality, they don't need to be convicted(cast out and scorned) as that is who they truly are. A murderer can pretend to be innocent in court all they like. It doesn't change the fact that they are a murderer.

That's fine. Then they are criminal AS. A criminal in america does not lose citizenship. The reality is they do need to be kicked out because if they are not then they can influence the entire world as AS, including the Tower. I do not agree with you.

 

You have not refuted anything.

[thisguy]

No one can walk so far into the darkness to lose the light completely. For all we know, if some of these BA decided to do something for the light the other AS may forgive them.

[thisguy]

And, by the way, the cop analogy is not a bad one. Before Serpico, there was something called the Blue Wall of Silence. Cops didn't rat on other cops. So, even if a cop was breaking the law (and many of them were - there was basically a mob element in the NYPD) nobody brought them to justice. Sounds the same as what was done in RJ's world. The Aes Sedai didn't want to give up their power and prestige and did nothing about the BA.

[Suttree]

Sounds the same as what was done in RJ's world. The Aes Sedai didn't want to give up their power and prestige and did nothing about the BA.

 

Sigh. At this point you have been consistently making claims about my argument and AS that are flat out not true.

 

Not only are you attribuing false motivations to them but as has been pointed out we have no idea what is in the secret histories or what has been done in past to deal with the BA.

 

We do know for fact there have been various sisters over a period of time working to deal with the threat of this other organization so you can not claim there was nothing done.

 

Lastly instead of triple posting feel free to just use edit. You can mark in the post what the addition was.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Lol, 14 pages and the thread started to derail on the second post. Congrats Suttree XD

 

Let's see, on topic I don't think it makes sense for the AOL to come back so quickly. By the time the AOL comes back several more ages will have passed. I think after TG will come the age in which the One Power truly declines and slowly vanishes as technology advances. It's only logical that if the AOL was the high point of OP usage now the Wheel is turning towards an age in which the OP does not exist.

 

I think Elayne probably hastened that end when she started copying Mat's medallion. That's something she should never have done from a channeller perspective, because by doing so and giving Mat several copies as well she may have opened Pandora's box.

In Seanchan the talent of making ter'angreal was never lost. Tuon can have thousands of copies made and with her ideology I'd say it is rather likely that she might consider it a fair trade in return for freeing the damane. Afterall there would no longer be a need for channellers to be leashed since everyone had a way of protecting him or herself from them. Add the advent of modern firearms hunting down and killing most channellers would be actually doable. And that will shift the power balance in the world against the channellers.

For 3000 years the mighty have rarely dared to openly go up against the Aes Sedai and they didn't do that because they realized that the Aes Sedai served the good of mankind, but because they themselves were powerless to resist even the weakest Aes Sedai. With those medallions however one man and a firearm probably has an even chance of killing the Aes Sedai and I don't see how the people could not realize that.

Not that Tuon or Mat would ever allow such a crusade, but who knows a hundred years or so down the line there might be some crisis and you have some guy pointing the finger at the channellers blaming them for everything that's going wrong and in a very short amount of time you might have channellers getting killed in droves. That's all too much like human nature.

[shortkut]

Let me make it very clear - if you can channel and the AS say that you are an AS, you are an AS.

 

You did make yourself clear and it has been refuted...

 

Mr Ares

No, if you meet the conditions required to be considered an AS, then you are an AS. If you do not meet the conditions required then you are not AS, even if you are still believed and acclaimed as AS. Again, perception versus reality. You are arguing that the perception of being AS makes you AS. It doesn't. The perception of being AS informs your treatment - you will treat someone you believe to be AS as an AS whether they are AS or not. It doesn't change the reality of what they are.

I don't agree. A person who is part of an organization is part of that organization until they are kicked out. that is true of every organization everywhere. The AS never said a word about BA not being AS in any public venue or to the AS themselves. Sorry, I do not agree.

 

As others said. A criminal is a criminal from the minute they commit the crime(join the BA and swear to the shadow). That is reality, they don't need to be convicted(cast out and scorned) as that is who they truly are. A murderer can pretend to be innocent in court all they like. It doesn't change the fact that they are a murderer.

they are guilty of being darkfriend AS but are still AS. the two descriptions are not mutually exclusive