Perspectives you dont want to see and you want to see

[condonmc]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

 

Well ... Ishamael certainly thinks that he is reborn like the Dragon ... whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. Dear old Ishy is prone to occasional bouts of megalomania.

 

We do know. Per RJ and BS Ishy and Rand's souls are intertwined a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They are frequently spun out together time and again. Ishy at least is very much aware the purpose of Rand's soul and knows they have fought this battle many times before.

Its warmer under the wing of a dragon, than one might think......

[Vardar]

The one thing that gets me, now that I think of it, is how little Aes Sedai seem to know or understand about rebirth. They call Rand the Dragon Reborn but never once wonder or question (that I can remember) whether he will actually have LTT's memories.

 

There is no precedent in world as far as current AS know of memory seepage. Even among Frosaken it is viewed as a huge negative that precedes an abrupt descent into madness.

 

Never considered that.

 

But what do they consider Mat's and Eggy's speaking in the old tongue? They are aware of it occuring sometimes,

[Vardar]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

 

 

Wow. I don't recall that at all...

 

Thanks for the quote!

[Neophyte]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

 

Well ... Ishamael certainly thinks that he is reborn like the Dragon ... whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. Dear old Ishy is prone to occasional bouts of megalomania.

 

We do know. Per RJ and BS Ishy and Rand's souls are intertwined a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They are frequently spun out together time and again. Ishy at least is very much aware the purpose of Rand's soul and knows they have fought this battle many times before.

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

This is a curiosity based request, not a challenge, for the record. It makes sense that Ishamael would be some kind of permanent anti-Dragon soul, but I didn't know we had that confirmed.

 

Though that would sort of be the Pattern giving him the eternal shaft, wouldn't it? Kind of makes his motivation a little clearer - if I discovered that I was permanently typecast as the Evil Villain by Reality Itself, I might be looking to break the Wheel too ...

[thisguy]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

 

Well ... Ishamael certainly thinks that he is reborn like the Dragon ... whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. Dear old Ishy is prone to occasional bouts of megalomania.

 

We do know. Per RJ and BS Ishy and Rand's souls are intertwined a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They are frequently spun out together time and again. Ishy at least is very much aware the purpose of Rand's soul and knows they have fought this battle many times before.

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

This is a curiosity based request, not a challenge, for the record. It makes sense that Ishamael would be some kind of permanent anti-Dragon soul, but I didn't know we had that confirmed.

 

Though that would sort of be the Pattern giving him the eternal shaft, wouldn't it? Kind of makes his motivation a little clearer - if I discovered that I was permanently typecast as the Evil Villain by Reality Itself, I might be looking to break the Wheel too ...

I can't remember if he said that explicitly, but in the first two books, when you see a lot of him as Balzamon, he says a couple of times how they've fought more than once and are linked, yada yada

[Vardar]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

 

Well ... Ishamael certainly thinks that he is reborn like the Dragon ... whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. Dear old Ishy is prone to occasional bouts of megalomania.

 

We do know. Per RJ and BS Ishy and Rand's souls are intertwined a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They are frequently spun out together time and again. Ishy at least is very much aware the purpose of Rand's soul and knows they have fought this battle many times before.

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

This is a curiosity based request, not a challenge, for the record. It makes sense that Ishamael would be some kind of permanent anti-Dragon soul, but I didn't know we had that confirmed.

 

Though that would sort of be the Pattern giving him the eternal shaft, wouldn't it? Kind of makes his motivation a little clearer - if I discovered that I was permanently typecast as the Evil Villain by Reality Itself, I might be looking to break the Wheel too ...

 

It was an RJ quote (Or was it BS), I've seen it within the last week in a thread I commented on. I'll look for it.

[Suttree]

Just continuing the discussion of things Dark Rand did wrong while heading down that path. Just noticed this in the reread. Her made a conscious decision to walk away and let Bandar Eban starve when he couldn't use them as a tool...

 

ToM

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

 

 

Also...

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Footnote

Brandon is reported as having said on tour that Ishamael's and Rand's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, somewhat like Birgitte and Gaidal.

[Vardar]

Just continuing the discussion of things Dark Rand did wrong while heading down that path. Just noticed this in the reread. Her made a conscious decision to walk away and let Bandar Eban starve when he couldn't use them as a tool...

 

ToM

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

 

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Footnote

Brandon is reported as having said on tour that Ishamael's and Rand's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, somewhat like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

Thanks for the quote.

 

Actually, we discussed that one, he had no choice but to walk away. Was it ever clearly stated if the food rotting as his fault? He had no food to feed them, what would his staying have done?

[XoMeltdownoX]

Just continuing the discussion of things Dark Rand did wrong while heading down that path. Just noticed this in the reread. Her made a conscious decision to walk away and let Bandar Eban starve when he couldn't use them as a tool...

 

ToM

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

 

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Footnote

Brandon is reported as having said on tour that Ishamael's and Rand's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, somewhat like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

Thanks for the quote.

 

Actually, we discussed that one, he had no choice but to walk away. Was it ever clearly stated if the food rotting as his fault? He had no food to feed them, what would his staying have done?

Not saying staying would have helped, but ya, the food rotting was his fault. The Dragon is one with the land.

[Suttree]

Just continuing the discussion of things Dark Rand did wrong while heading down that path. Just noticed this in the reread. Her made a conscious decision to walk away and let Bandar Eban starve when he couldn't use them as a tool...

 

ToM

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

 

 

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it.

 

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Footnote

Brandon is reported as having said on tour that Ishamael's and Rand's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, somewhat like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

Thanks for the quote.

 

Actually, we discussed that one, he had no choice but to walk away. Was it ever clearly stated if the food rotting as his fault? He had no food to feed them, what would his staying have done?

Not saying staying would have helped, but ya, the food rotting was his fault. The Dragon is one with the land.

 

Not to mention stay or go was not the only option. Use AShaman to evacuate via gateway etc. A number of things could have been attempted. He saw they couldn't be used as a tool and made a conscious decision in leaving them to starve. His own thoughts show us that is the case. Both the food rotting and his decision where because of his "Dark Rand" persona.

[Vardar]

Not saying staying would have helped, but ya, the food rotting was his fault. The Dragon is one with the land.

 

Always thought it was the DO.

 

 

Not to mention stay or go was not the only option. Use AShaman to evacuate via gateway etc. A number of things could have been attempted. He saw they couldn't be used as a tool and made a conscious decision in leaving them to starve. His own thoughts show us that is the case. Both the food rotting and his decision where because of his "Dark Rand" persona.

 

I still stand by it being a logical decision, and not necessarily a "bad" or "evil" one. Where would he evacuate them too? He shipped the food in, the food shipped in spoiled, at that point you kinda have to think something bigger is going on, like the dark ones hand on the world. So ship them to somewhere else to starve? Let them starve at home. (Sounds really mean, but it's not)

[Suttree]

Not saying staying would have helped, but ya, the food rotting was his fault. The Dragon is one with the land.

 

Always thought it was the DO.

 

 

Not to mention stay or go was not the only option. Use AShaman to evacuate via gateway etc. A number of things could have been attempted. He saw they couldn't be used as a tool and made a conscious decision in leaving them to starve. His own thoughts show us that is the case. Both the food rotting and his decision where because of his "Dark Rand" persona.

 

I still stand by it being a logical decision, and not necessarily a "bad" or "evil" one. Where would he evacuate them too? He shipped the food in, the food shipped in spoiled, at that point you kinda have to think something bigger is going on, like the dark ones hand on the world. So ship them to somewhere else to starve? Let them starve at home. (Sounds really mean, but it's not)

 

We know the food spoiling has to do with the DR being one with the land. It parallels the old fisher king legends.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land.

 

 

As for the decision it is somewhat funny seeing you attribute things like "genocide" to Cads way of thought in trying to save the world and then attempt to explain away Rand's decision when he admitted it wasn't for the reasons you are putting forth. He flat out said he couldn't "use it as the tool he wished it could be" so he left them to starve. It is not a decision he would have made where he not on his dark path and he regrets it and knows it was wrong afterwards. That is made abundantly clear in the text.

[Vardar]

Not saying staying would have helped, but ya, the food rotting was his fault. The Dragon is one with the land.

 

Always thought it was the DO.

 

 

Not to mention stay or go was not the only option. Use AShaman to evacuate via gateway etc. A number of things could have been attempted. He saw they couldn't be used as a tool and made a conscious decision in leaving them to starve. His own thoughts show us that is the case. Both the food rotting and his decision where because of his "Dark Rand" persona.

 

I still stand by it being a logical decision, and not necessarily a "bad" or "evil" one. Where would he evacuate them too? He shipped the food in, the food shipped in spoiled, at that point you kinda have to think something bigger is going on, like the dark ones hand on the world. So ship them to somewhere else to starve? Let them starve at home. (Sounds really mean, but it's not)

 

We know the food spoiling has to do with the DR being one with the land. It parallels the old fisher king legends.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land.

 

 

As for the decision it is somewhat funny seeing you attribute things like "genocide" to Cads way of thought in trying to save the world and then attempt to explain away Rand's decision when he admitted it wasn't for the reasons you are putting forth. He flat out said he couldn't "use it as the tool he wished it could be" so he left them to starve. It is not a decision he would have made where he not on his dark path and he regrets it and knows it was wrong afterwards. That is made abundantly clear in the text.

 

Actively killing is not the same as not being able to help.

 

He says's he abandoned, yes he did, he doesn't say his staying would have helped anything. His mental anguish over that occurance has no bearing on if his actions led to it. The fisher king parrell I'll give you, since you put it forth. However how does it explain why all food didn't go back to being good when he became Light Rand, or how food near Perrin didn't spoil?

 

They couldn't give him what he needed, so he left. He still had his needs. Sure, he could have stayed with them, the world be damned, and starved alongside them, but what would that have accomplished? Here we see Rational Rand at his best. Forget emotion, he knew what had to be done, sometimes the few have to die for the many to live. (Look at the Aiel, great example). However that statement doesn't excuse rudeness or genocide, since I know you're going to bring that up.

[thisguy]

Some good stuff here - first off, how messed up would it be if your mood could cause people to starve? That alone would put me in a worse mood.

 

Secondly - i've been thinking (it happens from time to time) - Ish joined the dark side out of logic. When Rand makes most of his mistakes it's when he is most logical, not necessarily the most angry. It's interesting stuff and I bet that RJ put that into the story intentionally.

[Vardar]

Some good stuff here - first off, how messed up would it be if your mood could cause people to starve? That alone would put me in a worse mood.

 

Secondly - i've been thinking (it happens from time to time) - Ish joined the dark side out of logic. When Rand makes most of his mistakes it's when he is most logical, not necessarily the most angry. It's interesting stuff and I bet that RJ put that into the story intentionally.

 

That is rather depressing.

 

Touche on the second point, however I'm hesitant to call them mistakes.

And although I have his stance on a certain someone, and how unyielding he is on it, Sutt provides a hell of a debate, always.

[thisguy]

Some good stuff here - first off, how messed up would it be if your mood could cause people to starve? That alone would put me in a worse mood.

 

Secondly - i've been thinking (it happens from time to time) - Ish joined the dark side out of logic. When Rand makes most of his mistakes it's when he is most logical, not necessarily the most angry. It's interesting stuff and I bet that RJ put that into the story intentionally.

 

That is rather depressing.

 

Touche on the second point, however I'm hesitant to call them mistakes.

And although I have his stance on a certain someone, and how unyielding he is on it, Sutt provides a hell of a debate, always.

 

Yes, suttree has passion.

[Suttree]

Here is a BS quote on the "one with the land" stuff for those interested...

 

Interview: Oct 30th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - jharoldson (Paraphrased)

jharoldson

 

I...asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the Dark One's touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

[thisguy]

Tragic.

[Vardar]

Tragic.

 

It really is. But then how does he need to be present to overcome the rotting once he goes all Goku? And why does Perrin hold off the spoiling?

 

Not asking you guys, just thinking outloud.

[thisguy]

Tragic.

 

It really is. But then how does he need to be present to overcome the rotting once he goes all Goku? And why does Perrin hold off the spoiling?

 

Not asking you guys, just thinking outloud.

 

I'm convinced Perrin will bring forth the rebirth of the land - either by finding the song or some other way.

 

Reasons:

Leeane in book two when she sees him shienar says = "next he'll be wearing a crown and singing in high chant."

Min sees trees around him in one viewing

The beginning of his story after the two rivers is divided between Longtooth and the tinkers.

At some point in book 3, I tihnk, it is mentioned that he cannot sing - actually, it might be 4. The same book, I believe it's before the first big attack of the trollocs or after on the two rivers - faile is weaving garlands of flowers and putting them into his beard and on his pommel, etc.

[Neophyte]

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Footnote

Brandon is reported as having said on tour that Ishamael's and Rand's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, somewhat like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

 

Thanks for the quote Suttree.

 

Sort of bites for Ishamael, doesn't it? I'm sort of assuming that since Birgitte and Gaidal are basically always lovers, the Ishy and the Dragon are basically always enemies - making Ishy the permanent bad guy by design. What a horrendous fate ...

[Vardar]

Tragic.

 

It really is. But then how does he need to be present to overcome the rotting once he goes all Goku? And why does Perrin hold off the spoiling?

 

Not asking you guys, just thinking outloud.

 

I'm convinced Perrin will bring forth the rebirth of the land - either by finding the song or some other way.

 

Reasons:

Leeane in book two when she sees him shienar says = "next he'll be wearing a crown and singing in high chant."

Min sees trees around him in one viewing

The beginning of his story after the two rivers is divided between Longtooth and the tinkers.

At some point in book 3, I tihnk, it is mentioned that he cannot sing - actually, it might be 4. The same book, I believe it's before the first big attack of the trollocs or after on the two rivers - faile is weaving garlands of flowers and putting them into his beard and on his pommel, etc.

 

Its book 4, I just read that part, lol.

 

The High Chant and Crown are part of the prophicies. The wolf King part or something. I wish we have a complete version of them actually.

[Vardar]

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Footnote

Brandon is reported as having said on tour that Ishamael's and Rand's souls are often woven together in the Pattern, somewhat like Birgitte and Gaidal.

 

 

HA! I never thought about that. So, you're always destined to be evil? WTF, that's enough to make anyone go crazy!

 

Thanks for the quote Suttree.

 

Sort of bites for Ishamael, doesn't it? I'm sort of assuming that since Birgitte and Gaidal are basically always lovers, the Ishy and the Dragon are basically always enemies - making Ishy the permanent bad guy by design. What a horrendous fate ...

[thisguy]

Tragic.

 

It really is. But then how does he need to be present to overcome the rotting once he goes all Goku? And why does Perrin hold off the spoiling?

 

Not asking you guys, just thinking outloud.

 

I'm convinced Perrin will bring forth the rebirth of the land - either by finding the song or some other way.

 

Reasons:

Leeane in book two when she sees him shienar says = "next he'll be wearing a crown and singing in high chant."

Min sees trees around him in one viewing

The beginning of his story after the two rivers is divided between Longtooth and the tinkers.

At some point in book 3, I tihnk, it is mentioned that he cannot sing - actually, it might be 4. The same book, I believe it's before the first big attack of the trollocs or after on the two rivers - faile is weaving garlands of flowers and putting them into his beard and on his pommel, etc.

 

Its book 4, I just read that part, lol.

 

The High Chant and Crown are part of the prophicies. The wolf King part or something. I wish we have a complete version of them actually.

Sure they are but I'm betting on him healing the land. The last time he sees those tinkers that mostly get killed by luc's trollocs, the seeker (or his wife) says he has a gentle heart and could have followed the leaf but chose the other way. His whole story (minus faile) has been a fight between his savage side and the side of him that is gentle, thoughtful and like to build or create - the hammer and the axe.

[Maleshub]

For me, The absolute worst part of the series was reading Dark Rand after using the TP. It was a worse reading than the Faile rescue and Elayne's succession.

 

One of the things that show how low Rand's morality has gone was his imprisonment of the Guild of Merchants member, a woman, in a solitary confinement cell, without light, and with food unfit for animals. The man who prided himself in his weakness of not hurting women, did something abhorrent to that woman. And he did it for something that isn't her fault. He knew that Graendal was his adversary; and punished the poor woman for Graendal's cleverness.

 

Towards the end of his Dark Days, even Min couldn't stand staying around him. And that tells volumes!