Perspectives you dont want to see and you want to see

[Suttree]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Not doing anyting positive? Holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years isn't positive? Savig the world during the Trolloc Wars isn't anyting positive? Averting wars, patrolling he blight, breaking up rings of DF's, forging treaties that save nations, perserving lost knowledge. All of those are positives. AS are like any other group in the world, they are filled with good, bad and average members.

 

Again not sure how you could like Moir and Verin and not Cads. You question why Rand kept him around and frankly much of it probably had to do with Min urging him to because of her viewing so their is a built in reason for it. Again she has had his back and supported him stronger than anyone. As great as Moir was her method would not have been sufficient in getting him to his epiphany.

[thisguy]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Not doing anyting positive? Holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years isn't positive? Savig the world during the Trolloc Wars isn't anyting positive? Averting wars, patrolling he blight, breaking up rings of DF's, forging treaties that save nations, perserving lost knowledge. All of those are positives. AS are like any other group in the world, they are filled with good, bad and average members.

 

Again not sure how you could like Moir and Verin and not Cads. You question why Rand kept him around and frankly much of it probably had to do with Min urging him to because of her viewing so their is a built in reason for it. Again she has had his back and supported him stronger than anyone. As great as Moir was her method would not have been sufficient in getting him to his epiphany.

That's 2000 and more years ago. The ones that we're introduced to mostly bicker and bully.

 

Yes, Min's viewings alway come true. She told him to keep her around. But, it doesn't change the fact that aside from getting him to confront Tam, his father, I really wasn't impressed with much that she did. I felt like it was written that you should be impressed because she's "Cadsuane", etc. But, I didn't like her. I feel like the fact that she helped him was more by accident than by her impressive talents and shrewd judgment.

Oh, I also like Sheriam, now that I think about it. Why do you find it hard to believe I could like Moiraine and Verin but not Cadsuane?

To make a comparison - The Valar sent five Istari to Middle Earth and only 1 succeeded in his mission. Most of the Aes Sedai who come in contact with Rand in a real way try to use him or they straight out abuse him. Then, Cad comes along and says she won't hurt him too much.... what an ego on her. I would have preferred if Min just wrote Tam a letter and said, "Your boy needs you more than he knows." He could have flipped out, almost killed him, realized what he was becoming and had his Dragonmount moment. Or, one of the wise ones could have taken Cads part and done a better job of it. I'm sorry, I just never believed she was wonderful or did a good job in getting him to snap out of it. In my eyes, she's just another person to make him feel distrustful, oppressed and bitter.

 

Edit to add - things change. The Aes Sedai not only became less powerful in their use of the power but less.... enlightened, in my eyes.

[thisguy]

To make another comparison - if I remember correctly, you weren't overly thrilled with the way Brandon Sanderson wrote the confrontation between Cads and Tam. I wasn't impressed with the way anyone wrote anything - present time - about her in the book. At least, nothing comes to mind.

[Suttree]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Not doing anyting positive? Holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years isn't positive? Savig the world during the Trolloc Wars isn't anyting positive? Averting wars, patrolling he blight, breaking up rings of DF's, forging treaties that save nations, perserving lost knowledge. All of those are positives. AS are like any other group in the world, they are filled with good, bad and average members.

 

Again not sure how you could like Moir and Verin and not Cads. You question why Rand kept him around and frankly much of it probably had to do with Min urging him to because of her viewing so their is a built in reason for it. Again she has had his back and supported him stronger than anyone. As great as Moir was her method would not have been sufficient in getting him to his epiphany.

That's 2000 and more years ago. The ones that we're introduced to mostly bicker and bully.

 

The bolded above is happening now, every day out in the world. Not to mention Rand would not even have been born if not for the actions of Gitara Sedai. No one is saying they haven't failed as an institution but you need to be realistic in how you judge them.

 

As for Cads she did inlist the WOs help when she made her pact with Sorilea. You also seem to be ignoring all the times she pulled him out of the fire in addition to her overall plan being a success. But as you say you weren't impressed by any of it. How about hear planning a perfect defense that Rand neglected to worry about which held off all the forsaken and allowed him to cleanse the taint. Or how about her groundwork and plan which saved him from the jails and being shipped back to Elaida in Far Madding. What about pulling him out of the bubble of evil? Vowing to do what was best for him and the world not herself or the WT? Being able to confirm crucial information concerning callandor that Min had a theory on which very well may lead to the sealing? You have to seriously ignore large parts of the text to ignore the impact she has had on Rand's character.

[thisguy]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Not doing anyting positive? Holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years isn't positive? Savig the world during the Trolloc Wars isn't anyting positive? Averting wars, patrolling he blight, breaking up rings of DF's, forging treaties that save nations, perserving lost knowledge. All of those are positives. AS are like any other group in the world, they are filled with good, bad and average members.

 

Again not sure how you could like Moir and Verin and not Cads. You question why Rand kept him around and frankly much of it probably had to do with Min urging him to because of her viewing so their is a built in reason for it. Again she has had his back and supported him stronger than anyone. As great as Moir was her method would not have been sufficient in getting him to his epiphany.

That's 2000 and more years ago. The ones that we're introduced to mostly bicker and bully.

 

The bolded above is happening now, every day out in the world. Not to mention Rand would not even have been born if not for the actions of Gitara Sedai. No one is saying they haven't failed as an institution but you need to be realistic in how you judge them.

 

As for Cads she did inlist the WOs help when she made her pact with Sorilea. You also seem to be ignoring all the times she pulled him out of the fire in addition to her overall plan being a success. But as you say you weren't impressed by any of it. How about hear planning a perfect defense that Rand neglected to worry about which held off all the forsaken and allowed him to cleanse the taint. Or how about her groundwork and plan which saved him from the jails and being shipped back to Elaida in Far Madding. What about pulling him out of the bubble of evil? Vowing to do what was best for him and the world not herself or the WT? Being able to confirm crucial information concerning callandor that Min had a theory on which very well may lead to the sealing? You have to seriously ignore large parts of the text to ignore the impact she has had on Rand's character.

AH! But, that was my point earlier in this discussion - you guys need to be more realistic in how you judge Rand. How old was he - 19 when this started? He's in his early twenties and DESPITE all the screw ups of the Aes Sedai managed to do really really well until the last book.

 

Here's the best way I can say this, I think. Some characters in a book you come to love, hate, respect, whatever - because of how they're written. Others just seem to be written that way - like the author expects you to believe they're awesome or evil or whatever is needed for the plot. I never did believe she was awesome. I had less of a problem with her snapping at Tam and his response than you did because of that.

[Suttree]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Not doing anyting positive? Holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years isn't positive? Savig the world during the Trolloc Wars isn't anyting positive? Averting wars, patrolling he blight, breaking up rings of DF's, forging treaties that save nations, perserving lost knowledge. All of those are positives. AS are like any other group in the world, they are filled with good, bad and average members.

 

Again not sure how you could like Moir and Verin and not Cads. You question why Rand kept him around and frankly much of it probably had to do with Min urging him to because of her viewing so their is a built in reason for it. Again she has had his back and supported him stronger than anyone. As great as Moir was her method would not have been sufficient in getting him to his epiphany.

That's 2000 and more years ago. The ones that we're introduced to mostly bicker and bully.

 

The bolded above is happening now, every day out in the world. Not to mention Rand would not even have been born if not for the actions of Gitara Sedai. No one is saying they haven't failed as an institution but you need to be realistic in how you judge them.

 

As for Cads she did inlist the WOs help when she made her pact with Sorilea. You also seem to be ignoring all the times she pulled him out of the fire in addition to her overall plan being a success. But as you say you weren't impressed by any of it. How about hear planning a perfect defense that Rand neglected to worry about which held off all the forsaken and allowed him to cleanse the taint. Or how about her groundwork and plan which saved him from the jails and being shipped back to Elaida in Far Madding. What about pulling him out of the bubble of evil? Vowing to do what was best for him and the world not herself or the WT? Being able to confirm crucial information concerning callandor that Min had a theory on which very well may lead to the sealing? You have to seriously ignore large parts of the text to ignore the impact she has had on Rand's character.

AH! But, that was my point earlier in this discussion - you guys need to be more realistic in how you judge Rand. How old was he - 19 when this started? He's in his early twenties and DESPITE all the screw ups of the Aes Sedai managed to do really really well until the last book.

 

Here's the best way I can say this, I think. Some characters in a book you come to love, hate, respect, whatever - because of how they're written. Others just seem to be written that way - like the author expects you to believe they're awesome or evil or whatever is needed for the plot. I never did believe she was awesome. I had less of a problem with her snapping at Tam and his response than you did because of that.

 

But who is judging Rand? To be clear I'm not trying to make this into a contest between the wto and Rand is one of my top characters. Listing the things that went wrong when he went down his "dark" path was more a function of showing things that happen when he is going down the wrong route. There wasn't any negative judgement involved.

[thisguy]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Not doing anyting positive? Holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years isn't positive? Savig the world during the Trolloc Wars isn't anyting positive? Averting wars, patrolling he blight, breaking up rings of DF's, forging treaties that save nations, perserving lost knowledge. All of those are positives. AS are like any other group in the world, they are filled with good, bad and average members.

 

Again not sure how you could like Moir and Verin and not Cads. You question why Rand kept him around and frankly much of it probably had to do with Min urging him to because of her viewing so their is a built in reason for it. Again she has had his back and supported him stronger than anyone. As great as Moir was her method would not have been sufficient in getting him to his epiphany.

That's 2000 and more years ago. The ones that we're introduced to mostly bicker and bully.

 

The bolded above is happening now, every day out in the world. Not to mention Rand would not even have been born if not for the actions of Gitara Sedai. No one is saying they haven't failed as an institution but you need to be realistic in how you judge them.

 

As for Cads she did inlist the WOs help when she made her pact with Sorilea. You also seem to be ignoring all the times she pulled him out of the fire in addition to her overall plan being a success. But as you say you weren't impressed by any of it. How about hear planning a perfect defense that Rand neglected to worry about which held off all the forsaken and allowed him to cleanse the taint. Or how about her groundwork and plan which saved him from the jails and being shipped back to Elaida in Far Madding. What about pulling him out of the bubble of evil? Vowing to do what was best for him and the world not herself or the WT? Being able to confirm crucial information concerning callandor that Min had a theory on which very well may lead to the sealing? You have to seriously ignore large parts of the text to ignore the impact she has had on Rand's character.

AH! But, that was my point earlier in this discussion - you guys need to be more realistic in how you judge Rand. How old was he - 19 when this started? He's in his early twenties and DESPITE all the screw ups of the Aes Sedai managed to do really really well until the last book.

 

Here's the best way I can say this, I think. Some characters in a book you come to love, hate, respect, whatever - because of how they're written. Others just seem to be written that way - like the author expects you to believe they're awesome or evil or whatever is needed for the plot. I never did believe she was awesome. I had less of a problem with her snapping at Tam and his response than you did because of that.

 

But who is judging Rand? To be clear I'm not trying to make this into a contest between the wto and Rand is one of my top characters. Listing the things that went wrong when he went down his "dark" path was more a function of showing things that happen when he is going down the wrong route. There wasn't any negative judgement involved.

I don't remember who - somebody started listing all the things he did wrong and most of them I disagreed with. I think the fact that Rand is portrayed until the last book as being very capable (even before he was) and as a guy who gets things done kinda diminishes what a tragic character he is. He basically knows he has to save the world, doesn't know if he can, knows he'll go insane, starts well down that path, has to share his headspace with another personality, has people who want to kill him all of the time, people who want to betray him, use him, trap him, etc. Then, the methods Cads used work because they were written to work but I never BELIEVED it when I read it. I just didn't believe in her character.

[shortkut]

i don't see how rj's notes prove cads would't use the power on tam. she often uses physical violence because she can't use the op as a weapon. she does it to get her point across. grabbing tam with air is a few steps below hanging the amyrlin upside down for a few weeks. if anything, the notes support the scene or indicate she was being restrained

[Suttree]

i don't see how rj's notes prove cads would't use the power on tam. she often uses physical violence because she can't use the op as a weapon. she does it to get her point across. grabbing tam with air is a few stwpa below hanging the amyrlin upside down for a few weeks. if anything, the notes support the scene or indicate she was being restrained

 

Who was using the notes in support of that? The conversation has moved on along way from that point. Regardless we don't need the notes. The text proves well enough that she doesn't use the power in that manner. We never see her once so much as even contemplate it. She would would have been disgusted by any AS that would have to resort to that while having a conversation with a man who can't channel. Once again in ONE sentence she goes from coldly asking him why he went off script to lashing out mid conversation. More so as has been noted by many, she sometimes uses bullying as a method but she almost unfailingly treats people as they deserve to be treated and she has never one been a "dumb" bully. This was a caricature version of Cads dumbed down(most certainly not the "remarkably adaptable" women RJ describes in the notes)in a very blunt, poorly written scene(can a paragraph checking an item of a list even be considered a scene?) Once again everyone was looking forward to a confrontation, it's just a bummer it played out in the way it did.

[shortkut]

This is a woman at the end of her life who is prone to using physical violence, attacking rulers, and she presumably used the power to up end her superior. She just found that someone couldn't follow a simple task and not only deestroyed her life's work but as far as she knows doomed the world. This same man is, instead of owning up to his mistake, blaming her like a child refusing to see he was wrong. What do you do with unruley children? you grab them and put them in their place. Tam is lucky she didn't spank him

[condonmc]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

 

Cad's Paralis net contains a ter'angreal that makes her immune to direct channeling. Just like Mat's Foxhead, that we thought was so rare. So apparently even if he wanted too, he couldn't.

 

I know, huge plot hole, but it's there.

Well, he could slice her up or have the maidens do it. You get my point, though. Just because she's supposed to be the wunderbar uber-Aes Sedai doesn't mean she's all that. She pushes a guy who everyone knows is going insane. I don't think she's all that bright, myself.

Didnt Rand say he was so powerful that if he wished it, the pattern would change to stop cadsuane's heart, by this point i wouldnt say Rand COULDNT do something.... as much as her sittly supporters would like to imagine cads having him helpless against her physically or mentally, I think even RJ would say that if Rand had snapped or had moved to destroy her.. she'd be toast.... ............... cause after all he's in tip top shape

[Suttree]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

 

Cad's Paralis net contains a ter'angreal that makes her immune to direct channeling. Just like Mat's Foxhead, that we thought was so rare. So apparently even if he wanted too, he couldn't.

 

I know, huge plot hole, but it's there.

Well, he could slice her up or have the maidens do it. You get my point, though. Just because she's supposed to be the wunderbar uber-Aes Sedai doesn't mean she's all that. She pushes a guy who everyone knows is going insane. I don't think she's all that bright, myself.

Didnt Rand say he was so powerful that if he wished it, the pattern would change to stop cadsuane's heart, by this point i wouldnt say Rand COULDNT do something.... as much as her sittly supporters would like to imagine cads having him helpless against her physically or mentally, I think even RJ would say that if Rand had snapped or had moved to destroy her.. she'd be toast.... ............... cause after all he's in tip top shape

 

1. As has been mentioned this isnt contest and Rand for me at least is one of my top characters. Why would you think someone like Luckers or myself would like to imagine him helpless in front of her? Again she has had his back as much as anyone and does what's best for him and the world, not herself or the WT. Everything she has done has been with the goal of allowing him to succeed at TG in mind. A victory with no VoG moment would have been as bad ad the DO winning. You would think people would focus on that instead of "omfg how dare she try to tell zen rand what to do!? He's the messiah!!!". Now that is what I would call silly.

 

2. Yes Dark Rand said that about the pattern at almost his lowest, most insane point. This is what we would call a very unreliable narrator.

 

3. Her paralis-net would make it very difficult for any male channeler to take her down one on one. We have her success against Logain and Taim as proof.

[Zorlon]

Just gonna put this out there.

 

Rand was on the edge in the TGS, and-prior to the climax at least- would have been at least as close to the breaking point even without Cadsuane's presence in his life. I've argued elsewhere that it was probably the bad guy's plan all along to push Rand to that level of madness, isolation, and coldness.

 

So anyway, Cadsuane tries to help bring him back to humanity and nearly pushes him over the ledge.

 

Well let's say she hadn't done that, Rand wouldn't have been in any condition to win TG regardless, and somethign very uglyu would have happened when he met up with the Borderlanders in Far Madding.

 

So the ways this could have gone are

 

1:Cads being Cads and let's say 50/50 chance Rand destroys the World, meaining the Do wins, or Rand comes to his senses

 

2: No Cads, Rand is fucked in the head, deep in the DO's clutches and either killed by Borderlanders in Far Madding, or in no condition to win the Last Battle and fails spectacularly in one awful way or another.

 

Seems like the Light had a much better chance for sake of Cads being there, so I don't see how her actions can be considered a poor performance. A 50/50 chance of win or lose today is a world better than almost certain defeat tomorrow.

 

By saving the Dragon she saved the world, and she deserves all the props.

 

And, fwiw, I'd much rather have someone in my life who may act a bit terse but truly cares and always gets the job done, then I would someone who acts real sweet but doesn't really give a shit or know what she's doing anyway.

[Vardar]

1. As has been mentioned this isnt contest and Rand for me at least is one of my top characters. Why would you think someone like Luckers or myself would like to imagine him helpless in front of her? Again she has had his back as much as anyone and does what's best for him and the world, not herself or the WT. Everything she has done has been with the goal of allowing him to succeed at TG in mind. A victory with no VoG moment would have been as bad ad the DO winning. You would think people would focus on that instead of "omfg how dare she try to tell zen rand what to do!? He's the messiah!!!". Now that is what I would call silly.

 

2. Yes Dark Rand said that about the pattern at almost his lowest, most insane point. This is what we would call a very unreliable narrator.

 

3. Her paralis-net would make it very difficult for any male channeler to take her down one on one. We have her success against Logain and Taim as proof.

 

1) I'll ignore

2) Didn't we have her POV saying she knew it to be true?

3) yet how much have they learned now? Although since she's immune to direct attack I am forced to agree with you, to my disgust.

[thisguy]

I think a male channeler even coming close to the power and ability of Rand wouldn't have as much trouble as all that taking her out once they knew about the p-net. Just throw a ton of rocks at her. Even if it took a half an hour to wear her down, he can create far more weaves than she can and has far more endurance.

 

Anyway, seems to me that Tam is the one who saves the day. Rand goes to use the power against him and then realizes what a slug he's becoming and that's that. As far as I'm concerned, she mostly does to him and treats him the way many of the other people did who helped drive him into dark brooding Rand.

[Suttree]

2) Didn't we have her POV saying she knew it to be true?

3) yet how much have they learned now? Although since she's immune to direct attack I am forced to agree with you, to my disgust.

 

2. Nope. Rand is a tool of the pattern. It controls him, not the other way around.

 

3. Logain has probably learned a fair amount. As for Taim who knows how much he knew. Hope we find out in AMoL how long he's been involved with the shadow.

[Vardar]

2) Didn't we have her POV saying she knew it to be true?

3) yet how much have they learned now? Although since she's immune to direct attack I am forced to agree with you, to my disgust.

 

2. Nope. Rand is a tool of the pattern. It controls him, not the other way around.

 

3. Logain has probably learned a fair amount. As for Taim who knows how much he knew. Hope we find out in AMoL how long he's been involved with the shadow.

 

No I meant, Cads herself said something along the lines of "Even thought she knew it shouldn't be possible, somehow she knew what he said was true"

I don't have the book on me, do you recall which it was? Maybe it's on my Ipad I can look it up.

 

And as to how much Taim knew, good point I never considered..But even if he knew, I guess it's presumed he wasn't allowed to show what he knew, now he could.

[Suttree]

2) Didn't we have her POV saying she knew it to be true?

3) yet how much have they learned now? Although since she's immune to direct attack I am forced to agree with you, to my disgust.

 

2. Nope. Rand is a tool of the pattern. It controls him, not the other way around.

 

3. Logain has probably learned a fair amount. As for Taim who knows how much he knew. Hope we find out in AMoL how long he's been involved with the shadow.

 

No I meant, Cads herself said something along the lines of "Even thought she knew it shouldn't be possible, somehow she knew what he said was true"

I don't have the book on me, do you recall which it was? Maybe it's on my Ipad I can look it up.

 

And as to how much Taim knew, good point I never considered..But even if he knew, I guess it's presumed he wasn't allowed to show what he knew, now he could.

 

Ahh ok, here it is from TGS

 

"Cadsuane," he said softly, "do you believe that I could kill you? Right here, right now, without using a sword or the Power? Do you believe that if I simply willed it, the Pattern would bend around me and stop your heart? By . . . coincidence?"

 

Being ta'veren didn't work that way. Light! It didn't, did it? He couldn't bend the very Pattern to his will, could he?

 

and yes we know it doesn't work that way from all avaialble information in text & q&a's.

 

In regards to Taim I highly doubt he wouldn't use everything at his disposal when faced with the chance of being stilled if captured. In addition little things like being able to test for resonance right when he meets Rand would argue that he has received training.

[Vardar]

2) Didn't we have her POV saying she knew it to be true?

3) yet how much have they learned now? Although since she's immune to direct attack I am forced to agree with you, to my disgust.

 

2. Nope. Rand is a tool of the pattern. It controls him, not the other way around.

 

3. Logain has probably learned a fair amount. As for Taim who knows how much he knew. Hope we find out in AMoL how long he's been involved with the shadow.

 

No I meant, Cads herself said something along the lines of "Even thought she knew it shouldn't be possible, somehow she knew what he said was true"

I don't have the book on me, do you recall which it was? Maybe it's on my Ipad I can look it up.

 

And as to how much Taim knew, good point I never considered..But even if he knew, I guess it's presumed he wasn't allowed to show what he knew, now he could.

 

Ahh ok, here it is from TGS

 

"Cadsuane," he said softly, "do you believe that I could kill you? Right here, right now, without using a sword or the Power? Do you believe that if I simply willed it, the Pattern would bend around me and stop your heart? By . . . coincidence?"

 

Being ta'veren didn't work that way. Light! It didn't, did it? He couldn't bend the very Pattern to his will, could he?

 

and yes we know it doesn't work that way from all avaialble information in text & q&a's.

 

In regards to Taim I highly doubt he wouldn't use everything at his disposal when faced with the chance of being stilled if captured. In addition little things like being able to test for resonance right when he meets Rand would argue that he has received training.

 

I thought he was only captured because of Rand, the whole horse thing.

 

Thanks for the quote and book, I don't have that book with me at all. Did anyone ever ask in a QnA if he could have offed her?

[Suttree]

I thought he was only captured because of Rand, the whole horse thing.

 

He was pressed in battle. The Rand thing did stun him when he was thrown from his horse and his followers fled.

 

As an aside I wonder who the other false dragon was brought down under similar circumstances in Haddon Mirk and executed on the spot by Tairens.

[Vardar]

I thought he was only captured because of Rand, the whole horse thing.

 

He was pressed in battle. The Rand thing did stun him when he was thrown from his horse and his followers fled.

 

As an aside I wonder who the other false dragon was brought down under similar circumstances in Haddon Mirk and executed on the spot by Tairens.

 

Some nameless sop I believe they called him a few times. I thought he was winning the battle, and the Rand image scared his horse, throwing him, making his followers believe he was dead.

Unless by pressed you mean he was in battle, not pressed losing.

[Zorlon]

Anyway, seems to me that Tam is the one who saves the day. Rand goes to use the power against him and then realizes what a slug he's becoming and that's that. As far as I'm concerned, she mostly does to him and treats him the way many of the other people did who helped drive him into dark brooding Rand.

And who's idea was it to bring Tam?

[thisguy]

Anyway, seems to me that Tam is the one who saves the day. Rand goes to use the power against him and then realizes what a slug he's becoming and that's that. As far as I'm concerned, she mostly does to him and treats him the way many of the other people did who helped drive him into dark brooding Rand.

And who's idea was it to bring Tam?

No, I get it. She could have cut out the other crap and just sent for the man and I'd have more respect for her.

[Zorlon]

Anyway, seems to me that Tam is the one who saves the day. Rand goes to use the power against him and then realizes what a slug he's becoming and that's that. As far as I'm concerned, she mostly does to him and treats him the way many of the other people did who helped drive him into dark brooding Rand.

And who's idea was it to bring Tam?

No, I get it. She could have cut out the other crap and just sent for the man and I'd have more respect for her.

The woman's got a system. Her heart's in the right place, and she has the world's best track record of getting the job done.

 

It's true some people don't have the friendliest of demeanor, but what's really important is her heart is in the right place and she knows what she's doing.

 

the worst you could say is Jordan has a poor conception of what makes good psychology, but even looking at it as a real world approach i don't think her methods were so poor.

[thisguy]

Anyway, seems to me that Tam is the one who saves the day. Rand goes to use the power against him and then realizes what a slug he's becoming and that's that. As far as I'm concerned, she mostly does to him and treats him the way many of the other people did who helped drive him into dark brooding Rand.

And who's idea was it to bring Tam?

No, I get it. She could have cut out the other crap and just sent for the man and I'd have more respect for her.

The woman's got a system. Her heart's in the right place, and she has the world's best track record of getting the job done.

 

It's true some people don't have the friendliest of demeanor, but what's really important is her heart is in the right place and she knows what she's doing.

 

the worst you could say is Jordan has a poor conception of what makes good psychology, but even looking at it as a real world approach i don't think her methods were so poor.

That's a good point. But, over the 13 books the guys have wanted to be rid of AS mostly, especially Rand after Dumai. Yes, you could put it down to writing but looking at the characters as people, I just don't like her and the fact that anything she did worked out seems like providence more than strategy. Just my opinion.