Channeler to Soldier Ratio

[TristanWebb]

Every woman in Seanchan is tested from early puberty (or even earlier, given Alivia @11) for the A'dam.

They continue to be tested annually till they're 25. (Bethamn's PoVs)

This is done in a bureaucratic fashion, village by village, town by town with records maintained (the being struck off the rolls business).

So there's a lot of data about this in the "Seanchan ministry for adam testing".

Those who spark are picked up and held as damane.

Those who can control sparkers are marked out as Sul'dam.

Some sul'dam are trained to work with the a'dam.

The chances that some of those sul'dam will step over the edge and be held by the a'dam after they have worked with damane for several years is reasonably high.

We're dealing with large absolute numbers (many millions of women) so, even a small fractional percentage would be a large absolute number.

Somewhere along the line, statisticians in the bureaucracy and clerks etc., involved in doing the testing would have noticed that a significant number of sul'dams turned into damane.

This would especially true for women in the 23-25 age group who were held by the a'dam after having passed several previous tests (women spark early so most sparkers would be picked up before they turned say 23).

It would be knowledge that's difficult to absolutely suppress simply due to the numbers involved.

Even if you have spent many years as a sul'dam, you haven't necessarily spent long enough training damane to be held. Remember, there are far more sul'dam than there are damane. It takes a lot of time spent with the a'dam over a number of years to be held. It could easily be the case that only a very tiny handful are capable of being held by the a'dam by the age of 25. Also, do they even continue testing sul'dam?

 

Yes they do continue testing Sul'dam - every woman is tested till she's 25 Bethamin's PoV in WH (IIRC) makes that clear.

The point is not that a very small percentage of sul'dam would be held by the a'dam. The point is that almost every woman over say 23, who was held by the a'dam would be a registered sul'dam.

Reasoning. Women spark early. The sparkers are identified and leashed early.

By the time women are 23 (maybe earlier) there are no sparkers left. The only women (or a very high percent of the women) over 23 who would be held would be sul'dam who had gone over the edge.

Since women in the later years who were held by the a'dam would be mostly registered sul'dams and the Seanchan keep records, this would have been noticed.

Since we're dealing with very large absolute numbers, it would be a significant absolute.number.

Say, the Seanchan register that say 20 women in the 23-25 age group were held on average each year, and on average say, 17 of them were registered sul'dams in training, I think they'd have noticed.

 

Edit: This is quite apart from the fact that woman are tested both ways at the same time. Sometime along the line it may have been noted that women who tested positive as sul'dam also very often tested positive as damane. Unless you have a rigid ritual where you always test a batch for damane first, and only then test the same bunch of women for sul'dam ability after leashing and removing the damane.

1: It is said that it is only after a long time that sul'dam can learn to see the weaves. That to me indicates 10-15 years, long enough to be out of the danger zone for the a'dam tests.

 

2: Of course there is a rigid ritual. You put on the collar then you put on the bracelet. They aren't going to go 'Here is the line for women who want to be treated like animals, here is the line for women who want to be the second most honoured class in the empire, sort yourselves out'.

[Suttree]

Say, the Seanchan register that say 20 women in the 23-25 age group were held on average each year, and on average say, 17 of them were registered sul'dams in training, I think they'd have noticed.

 

Edit: This is quite apart from the fact that woman are tested both ways at the same time. Sometime along the line it may have been noted that women who tested positive as sul'dam also very often tested positive as damane. Unless you have a rigid ritual where you always test a batch for damane first, and only then test the same bunch of women for sul'dam ability after leashing and removing the damane.

 

You totally lost me here. If it is noticed a woman can be held she is turned to damane and stricken from the records. There is no alternate outcome. RJ explained that it takes a large amount of experience with the adam in order for a suldam to be held. Given the dearth of damane compared to numbers of suldam it is highly unlikely they would gain the required experience before they were past age.

[Mr Ares]

The further piece of evidence is the logical jump, and it's not even that far of a leap. Tuon knew of it, from her response to Mat. Others' would have figured it out.

Tuon did not know of it. Her response to Mat is evidence of that. Yes, she takes the revelation calmly, but that's normal for her. And to go from no knowledge that learning is possible to it being possible and that's what sul'dam are is a fairly significant leap, backed by no evidence. To propose such a thing would be guesswork, absent the knowledge their side of the Aryth lacks.

 

Mr Ares - I believe the point is not the shame part of sul'dam having damane children. The point is that someone would have to notice the connection between sul'dam having a much higher percentage of children that become damane. This connection should lead to the discovery of sul'dam being channelers. Then finding out that the people that control the "animals" are themselves "animals" would rock the Seachan world.

 

The only argument I can think of against this discovery is that with the way Seachan is ruled, this information should be very easy to cover up if the higher ups were to have discovered it and wanted to keep it a secret from the people.

Firstly, that is not the point Vardarmus made. He made the point that the shame of damane children would lead to sul'dam having a fall from grace. If there is no shame, there is no point. And there is no evidence of shame. However, to address the point you make, it does not follow that a high number of damane children leads to the conclusion that sul'dam can channel. That requires a further piece of evidence, one the Seanchan lack - that it is possible to learn to channel. As it is, lots of damane being born to sul'dam leads only to the conclusion that there is a genetic link between the ability to channel and the ability to control channelers. Hence my initial "so what?".

Okay the "shame" part of your argument may just be an issue of semantics. What I said is the way I took what Vardarmus said.

 

And I do not think it would be very difficult for people to start putting the pieces together. Do you think that none of the Seachan have the ability to think?

I think there is a gap in their knowledge. A missing piece. To go from "there is a link between sul'dam and damane" to "sul'dam can learn to channel" is reasonable for the Westlanders who know such a thing is possible. The Seanchan have no knowledge of learning to channel. The idea that someone could go through their whole life with the ability to channel but never touch the Source is one they have never come across before they come to the Westlands. So it is not a logical deduction. It would be unsubstantiated guesswork. Something they would have had no reason to believe true. If you didn't know that it was possible to learn to touch the Source, would you make the jump that sul'dam could learn? We've known about learners all along, so it is easy for us to make the jump. We have information they don't. Also, of course, remember Tuon's rationalisation in KoD? She chooses not to channel. Even if sul'dam could learn, if they do not learn what is the problem from the perspective of Seanchan society?

 

As to what Vardarmus's point is: Now you have a portion of the aforementioned society who seem to produce a lot of the latter mentioned portion. Someone would have noticed and connected the dots. Not only would they connect the dots, the conclusions would be enough to rock the very foundations of their society. For some reason, this esteemed population produces the reviled ones. Why is this happening? If this is happening, that must mean there is direct connection, and thus that esteemed population would most likely fall from grace.

From that, it does not follow that the direct connection means sul'dam can also channel. If that was his point, he should have made it when I initially asked him what his point was.

 

Yes they do continue testing Sul'dam - every woman is tested till she's 25 Bethamin's PoV in WH (IIRC) makes that clear.

So they do.

 

The point is not that a very small percentage of sul'dam would be held by the a'dam. The point is that almost every woman over say 23, who was held by the a'dam would be a registered sul'dam.

Reasoning. Women spark early. The sparkers are identified and leashed early.

By the time women are 23 (maybe earlier) there are no sparkers left.

I disagree with your assessment here. Women do continue sparking that late, although it is less common. And that undermines your point - that they test sul'dam indicates they are aware that someone may possess both talents. A late sparking sul'dam and a late sparking non-sul'dam work out to the same thing - a marath'damane. If you never caught women over the age of 23 outside of sul'dam, why test all the women? (Bethamin notes that even sul'dam were tested, indicating others were too.) So if you know both abilities can manifest in the same person, and you find women of the age who are not sul'dam, then what is the problem? If nothing else, an abnormally high number of late sparkers among the sul'dam could indicate that, perhaps, the ability to be a sul'dam interfered with the first touching, often delaying it. Not something which is necessarily suspicious. And, as was already stated, it takes many years and a lot of time working with damane to push a sul'dam far enough. It's not unreasonable to conclude that in absolute numbers, learners who have spent enough time with damane by their final testing to be caught are rare.

 

Unless you have a rigid ritual where you always test a batch for damane first, and only then test the same bunch of women for sul'dam ability after leashing and removing the damane.

That is what they do.

[shortkut]

You also need to know they have knowledge of genetics and put a lot of stock in luck and omens. Why do you then assume they would make the conclusions you say they will instead of creating a reason that fits closer to what they already believe and does not screw with their society?

[Vardar]

You also need to know they have knowledge of genetics and put a lot of stock in luck and omens. Why do you then assume they would make the conclusions you say they will instead of creating a reason that fits closer to what they already believe and does not screw with their society?

 

Did you leave out the word "No" before knowledge?

 

 

Selective breeding has been used in our world for quite a while, the basis of genetics. Rand and others have proven the idea exists in their world, they've discussed culling. The jump from selective breeding to noting an undesired strain appears a lot in certain situations is not very far indeed. Now your point about luck and omens has merit.

 

But I believe we've strayed far off the original subject, which was if "culling" of the gene is even possible, and that evidence suggests that it isn't. Given the evidence gleaned from the books, it would seem that the gene rests in all humans and not just those that can channel, and channelers wouldn't have a higher chance of producing channelers, which is how we got to this Suldam discussion. Hell, I'd have to go read back to see who came up with the idea.

[Vardar]

Just checked, it's on page 2, Barid and I were discussing an RJ statement and the idea of culling and why it wouldn't make much sense, starting with the fact that a lot of those gentled men would have bred already. Then it continued on to this.

[Wandering Channeler]

I'm seeing what you guys are saying about how difficult it would be to notice this if I was Seachan.

 

So if that matter is settled can anyone answer my question about the strength of an average channeler?

[TristanWebb]

Your original question is very hard to answer. If you use them right, they could be worth 100 bowmen just in terms of ability to put men down at a distance. They tire more easily than average soldiers by most accounts though, so for short engagements they would be alot better than prolonged battles.

[Vardar]

I'm seeing what you guys are saying about how difficult it would be to notice this if I was Seachan.

 

So if that matter is settled can anyone answer my question about the strength of an average channeler?

 

That was answered in the first 5 posts wasn't it?

 

Even based on the books its nearly impossible to give an accurate answer because they all do so much at different times. Surprise attacks, all out battles in a empty field, is cover involved. All this could take it from 1channeler being worth 10 soldiers to 1 channeler being worth thousands of soldiers.

 

There has to be a limit or it wouldn't be much fun for the majority of people now would it. Look at what Rand did to the Trolloc army, and how many were there? And he was 1 channeler. Now he took the place of what 10 channelers? (How many did Itrulde have with him). In theory, even if they were each half his strength, why couldn't all 10 of them do what he did, on a smaller scale each making a bigger effect? The relative "power" of channelers changes over the course of the story, in each book, hell sometimes multiple times in a book.

 

But uf you want a number, I'd say anywhere from 1 Channeler being worth 100 soldiers to 1 channeler being worth 1000. With exceptions of course.

[Wandering Channeler]

I'm seeing what you guys are saying about how difficult it would be to notice this if I was Seachan.

 

So if that matter is settled can anyone answer my question about the strength of an average channeler?

 

That was answered in the first 5 posts wasn't it?

 

Even based on the books its nearly impossible to give an accurate answer because they all do so much at different times. Surprise attacks, all out battles in a empty field, is cover involved. All this could take it from 1channeler being worth 10 soldiers to 1 channeler being worth thousands of soldiers.

 

There has to be a limit or it wouldn't be much fun for the majority of people now would it. Look at what Rand did to the Trolloc army, and how many were there? And he was 1 channeler. Now he took the place of what 10 channelers? (How many did Itrulde have with him). In theory, even if they were each half his strength, why couldn't all 10 of them do what he did, on a smaller scale each making a bigger effect? The relative "power" of channelers changes over the course of the story, in each book, hell sometimes multiple times in a book.

 

But uf you want a number, I'd say anywhere from 1 Channeler being worth 100 soldiers to 1 channeler being worth 1000. With exceptions of course.

 

Yeah most of it was answered in the beginning posts, or at least was responded too without there being a real answer. Just wanted to see if anyone else had an opinion or more information about it.

[Vardar]

I'm seeing what you guys are saying about how difficult it would be to notice this if I was Seachan.

 

So if that matter is settled can anyone answer my question about the strength of an average channeler?

 

That was answered in the first 5 posts wasn't it?

 

Even based on the books its nearly impossible to give an accurate answer because they all do so much at different times. Surprise attacks, all out battles in a empty field, is cover involved. All this could take it from 1channeler being worth 10 soldiers to 1 channeler being worth thousands of soldiers.

 

There has to be a limit or it wouldn't be much fun for the majority of people now would it. Look at what Rand did to the Trolloc army, and how many were there? And he was 1 channeler. Now he took the place of what 10 channelers? (How many did Itrulde have with him). In theory, even if they were each half his strength, why couldn't all 10 of them do what he did, on a smaller scale each making a bigger effect? The relative "power" of channelers changes over the course of the story, in each book, hell sometimes multiple times in a book.

 

But uf you want a number, I'd say anywhere from 1 Channeler being worth 100 soldiers to 1 channeler being worth 1000. With exceptions of course.

 

Yeah most of it was answered in the beginning posts, or at least was responded too without there being a real answer. Just wanted to see if anyone else had an opinion or more information about it.

 

Was that enough or did you want to discuss it some more? What are your thoughts?

[shortkut]

You also need to know they have knowledge of genetics and put a lot of stock in luck and omens. Why do you then assume they would make the conclusions you say they will instead of creating a reason that fits closer to what they already believe and does not screw with their society?

 

Did you leave out the word "No" before knowledge?

 

 

Selective breeding has been used in our world for quite a while, the basis of genetics. Rand and others have proven the idea exists in their world, they've discussed culling. The jump from selective breeding to noting an undesired strain appears a lot in certain situations is not very far indeed. Now your point about luck and omens has merit.

 

But I believe we've strayed far off the original subject, which was if "culling" of the gene is even possible, and that evidence suggests that it isn't. Given the evidence gleaned from the books, it would seem that the gene rests in all humans and not just those that can channel, and channelers wouldn't have a higher chance of producing channelers, which is how we got to this Suldam discussion. Hell, I'd have to go read back to see who came up with the idea.

oops. Forgot a word. I've always assumed the channeling gene was similar to the mutation for albinoism.

[Vardar]

You also need to know they have knowledge of genetics and put a lot of stock in luck and omens. Why do you then assume they would make the conclusions you say they will instead of creating a reason that fits closer to what they already believe and does not screw with their society?

 

Did you leave out the word "No" before knowledge?

 

 

Selective breeding has been used in our world for quite a while, the basis of genetics. Rand and others have proven the idea exists in their world, they've discussed culling. The jump from selective breeding to noting an undesired strain appears a lot in certain situations is not very far indeed. Now your point about luck and omens has merit.

 

But I believe we've strayed far off the original subject, which was if "culling" of the gene is even possible, and that evidence suggests that it isn't. Given the evidence gleaned from the books, it would seem that the gene rests in all humans and not just those that can channel, and channelers wouldn't have a higher chance of producing channelers, which is how we got to this Suldam discussion. Hell, I'd have to go read back to see who came up with the idea.

oops. Forgot a word. I've always assumed the channeling gene was similar to the mutation for albinoism.

 

That would be the same as the Red Hair gene right? Or the green eye gene? Yea, that was the basic debate, that if it was that way, then culling wouldn't work, and Suldam colonies (If that's how they live since they hang out a lot) would produce quite a few spakers leading to someone noticing. And that was ignoring the sparking men, thus we would have to conclude that all human's carry the potential not just channelers, which really means culling wouldn't work.

[Sharaman]

Here's what I mean.

Take a million women.

Say, about 10,000 will be power-capable (I'm assuming 1% of the population is spread evenly across gender - that is 1% of men and 1% of women can channel. Change the ratio and assume 5,000 if you don't think so)

Perhaps 2000-3000 will be sparkers (damane) and 7000-8000 will be sul'dam.

For example let's say it's split 3000 damane and 7000 non-damane. (Again you can take any ratio you like, remembering that sul'dam outnumber damane considerably)

 

You start testing this lot with the leash at say age 13.

First few years, you get nothing, or almost nothing. Say one Alivia and one Talaan.

Between the time they're 16-22, you catch 2500 damane (normal early sparkers) and identify 6500 sul'dam.

 

You continue testing and you start training sul'dam from this cohort,

Between 23-25, you catch 500 late sparkers, identify another 500 sul'dam, and discover that 10 sul'dam in training are also held.

(This assumes that late sparkers would not show up as sul'dam the year before they sparked. If they did, the connect would be blindingly obvious. So let's assume for the sake of seamless plotting that they don't.)

You note that for some reason, some sul'dam (very few as a percent but some) seem to be held by the leash.

 

You are repeating this testing over centuries and over multiple cohorts of millions of women of different ages and keeping meticulous records.

You note that there's always a small number of older sul'dams (nearly 25-year-old) being held for each cohort you test.

 

It's not a big deal but it's not a "dirty little secret" any longer.

If later on, you discover that three (just 3!) older (as in over 25 year-old) sul'dam as in WoT have been held by the leash, you would shrug it off or maybe consider extending the testing to 30-year-olds or randomly testing older sul'dam.

It wouldn't bring down your empire or even cause ripples in your system..

 

About the testing for collar first and then leash. If it ever accidentally happened the other way around in all the millions of tests, or some efficiency expert tried to speed up the processes by dividing the girls into batches, you'd know immediately that damane can also be sul'dams. But this is a subsidiary point.

[TristanWebb]

Why would it work the other way around? You have a suldam with and a'dam standing there, and a damane with a different a'dam standing next to her. You put the collar on, it works she gets taken away, it doesn't you take a step to the left and try the bracelet. Then the next girl is tested.

[Vardar]

Do they even test Suldam at the same age as the Damae? If not, that would explain how they never notice the late sparkers.

[Luckers]

Do they even test Suldam at the same age as the Damae? If not, that would explain how they never notice the late sparkers.

 

The inference is yes, based on Tuon--who is still within the age of testing but also is trained as a sul'dam. Egwene's comment also seems to agree with this: "It is apparently a feastday in Seanchan villages when the sul'dam come to test the girls. They want to find any like you and me, and leash them, but they let all the others put on a bracelet to see if they can feel what the poor woman in the collar feels. Those who can are taken away to be trained as sul'dam. They are the women who could be taught."

 

 

However, this is problematic. If they did test girls for sul'dam at the same age they begin testing for damane (12) then the very vast majority of sparkers would fail the test of the damane, but pass the test of sul'dam. Therefore, almost every damane would be a woman who had passed the test for sul'dam, and surely that would be noticed.

 

It is possible that this is known to the sul'dam but not the wider public (Egeanin certainly didn't know)--Egwene's comment that this was the sul'dam's 'dirty little secret' does seem to suggest some knowledge, and Fortuona did leap on the rationalisation that she 'didn't choose to channel' and how it made a difference awful quick, perhaps suggesting that it is known to the Seanchan that sul'dam are women who 'almost channeled'. It wouldn't even be outside human nature to then decide that those that did actually, did so because of some inner choice toward sin--a moral deficiency that led them down the dark path, whilst the sul'dam stayed pure. One need only looking at the Red Ajah's attitude toward men who can channel--men's sin, men's pride, for what is in truth none of their choosing--all of which would fit very well with Seanchan attitudes (the obvious allegory being homosexuality in the real world).

 

Still it's odd that there is no hint of it in any of the sul'dam POV's beyond Fortuona's ready answer, and Egwene's hint that the sul'dam have shown her they are at least somewhat aware of their similarity to channelers, deep down. The other option is that Egwene's wrong, and they mostly offer the testing of sul'dam to grown women rather than the girls who failed the damane test. This would make sense--one wouldn't want someone so young training damane. Fortuona may well be the exception, trained as sul'dam as a result of her interest in training things combined with the influence of who she was.

 

Or its just a plain mistake. This last is the most likely.

[TristanWebb]

Is there a fundamental difference between sparkers and learners? if you find someone who will spark before they do, would you just think they could learn? Because if there is a difference, that the a'dam will pick out a sparker who hasn't channelled yet as someone who can channel and just hasn't yet then there is no problem. It screws with the AS looking for sparkers to save them if there is no difference though.

[Vardar]

Do they even test Suldam at the same age as the Damae? If not, that would explain how they never notice the late sparkers.

 

The inference is yes, based on Tuon--who is still within the age of testing but also is trained as a sul'dam. Egwene's comment also seems to agree with this: "It is apparently a feastday in Seanchan villages when the sul'dam come to test the girls. They want to find any like you and me, and leash them, but they let all the others put on a bracelet to see if they can feel what the poor woman in the collar feels. Those who can are taken away to be trained as sul'dam. They are the women who could be taught."

 

 

However, this is problematic. If they did test girls for sul'dam at the same age they begin testing for damane (12) then the very vast majority of sparkers would fail the test of the damane, but pass the test of sul'dam. Therefore, almost every damane would be a woman who had passed the test for sul'dam, and surely that would be noticed.

 

It is possible that this is known to the sul'dam but not the wider public (Egeanin certainly didn't know)--Egwene's comment that this was the sul'dam's 'dirty little secret' does seem to suggest some knowledge, and Fortuona did leap on the rationalisation that she 'didn't choose to channel' and how it made a difference awful quick, perhaps suggesting that it is known to the Seanchan that sul'dam are women who 'almost channeled'. It wouldn't even be outside human nature to then decide that those that did actually, did so because of some inner choice toward sin--a moral deficiency that led them down the dark path, whilst the sul'dam stayed pure. One need only looking at the Red Ajah's attitude toward men who can channel--men's sin, men's pride, for what is in truth none of their choosing--all of which would fit very well with Seanchan attitudes (the obvious allegory being homosexuality in the real world).

 

Still it's odd that there is no hint of it in any of the sul'dam POV's beyond Fortuona's ready answer, and Egwene's hint that the sul'dam have shown her they are at least somewhat aware of their similarity to channelers, deep down. The other option is that Egwene's wrong, and they mostly offer the testing of sul'dam to grown women rather than the girls who failed the damane test. This would make sense--one wouldn't want someone so young training damane. Fortuona may well be the exception, trained as sul'dam as a result of her interest in training things combined with the influence of who she was.

 

Or its just a plain mistake. This last is the most likely.

 

I took Eggys comment at face value, as it she discovered it. Every Suldam we see who finds out is SHOCKED at the knowledge. I could see a cover up consipracy, but you'd think the Suldam would be in on it. Tuon's answer I agree 100%, the way she jumped at it to me made it seem like she knew. Although I can see how her young age could imply they are tested at a young age, I just took it to mean she's royalty, they get to do things others don't.

 

All in all, yea it's probably just a mistake, a huge one though with lots of holes that I never really noticed until we started this discussion.

[Vardar]

Is there a fundamental difference between sparkers and learners? if you find someone who will spark before they do, would you just think they could learn? Because if there is a difference, that the a'dam will pick out a sparker who hasn't channelled yet as someone who can channel and just hasn't yet then there is no problem. It screws with the AS looking for sparkers to save them if there is no difference though.

 

 

No, sparkers can force themselves to learn, I believe (From the book). Wait, didn't Eggy force herself? She hadn't sparked yet, she wanted to learn and thus did.

 

Another question, who was the Ashaman who Taim said was a sparker? Ni-something?

 

How the hell did he know he was a sparker? He said he will channeler whethere he wants too or not, how would Taim know? Male's can't sense the power in each other, and he hadn't started channeling, so... Hella suspicious in my book. (This occured to me on the train home thinking about this discussion)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Another question, who was the Ashaman who Taim said was a sparker? Ni-something?

 

How the hell did he know he was a sparker? He said he will channeler whethere he wants too or not, how would Taim know? Male's can't sense the power in each other, and he hadn't started channeling, so... Hella suspicious in my book. (This occured to me on the train home thinking about this discussion)

 

Narishma was the sparker.

 

How Taim knows, well, it is just another mystery to add to his tally. Like how he knew how to test people in the first place.

 

As to the sparker/non-sparker with the Seanchan. I am pretty sure they know there is a connection between damane and sul'dam, they know they have some sort of ability or affinity with the OP.

 

The difference is that non-sparkers never get taught how to wield the OP like they do in the WT and other areas. Instead they become sul'dam, who never actually begin wielding the OP, because a) they have nobody to teach or force them b) they don't WANT to in any case.

 

So, the Seanchan probably don't know exactly that these women can be taught to channel, thus it was a surprise to Bethamin/Seta etc... Point being, the affinity between damane and sul'dam wouldn't be a big thing, nor is it unknown. It is just they believe it is a different sort of affinity, not that they themselves can actually channel like the damane.

 

So those numbers wouldn't raise suspicion, and it means that the full truth would still undermine the Seanchan culture, rather than just be something they would be able to brush off, like Tuon did.

 

Edit: I suppose I will add that,even if they know damane can hold a leash just like sul'dam, the difference is that, while they know both can do it, one doesn't channel, and one does. I mean, they may contemplate the connection, their scientists or whatever, but when something like this is viewed as abhorrent, people usually shy away from thinking too much about it.

 

The fact that, if left alone, sul'dam will not channel ever, would be a good enough outcome for them. As Tuon said, she chooses not to channel, so it's all good. Not exactly the same, but similar thinking would be sul'dam don't channel, and they stay that way = good enough for us!

[Vardar]

Edit: I suppose I will add that,even if they know damane can hold a leash just like sul'dam, the difference is that, while they know both can do it, one doesn't channel, and one does. I mean, they may contemplate the connection, their scientists or whatever, but when something like this is viewed as abhorrent, people usually shy away from thinking too much about it.

 

The fact that, if left alone, sul'dam will not channel ever, would be a good enough outcome for them. As Tuon said, she chooses not to channel, so it's all good. Not exactly the same, but similar thinking would be sul'dam don't channel, and they stay that way = good enough for us!

 

It just seems far fetched that they wouldn't get the obvious truth, that's all.

 

And yea the Taim thing bothers me. I mean testing for people, well he was taught by someone, sure. But how the hell would he know a sparker before they sparked? Is it a weave or something, and I bet they never explain it.

[Mr Ares]

Here's what I mean.

Take a million women.

Say, about 10,000 will be power-capable (I'm assuming 1% of the population is spread evenly across gender - that is 1% of men and 1% of women can channel. Change the ratio and assume 5,000 if you don't think so)

Perhaps 2000-3000 will be sparkers (damane) and 7000-8000 will be sul'dam.

For example let's say it's split 3000 damane and 7000 non-damane. (Again you can take any ratio you like, remembering that sul'dam outnumber damane considerably)

 

You start testing this lot with the leash at say age 13.

First few years, you get nothing, or almost nothing. Say one Alivia and one Talaan.

Between the time they're 16-22, you catch 2500 damane (normal early sparkers) and identify 6500 sul'dam.

 

You continue testing and you start training sul'dam from this cohort,

Between 23-25, you catch 500 late sparkers, identify another 500 sul'dam, and discover that 10 sul'dam in training are also held.

(This assumes that late sparkers would not show up as sul'dam the year before they sparked. If they did, the connect would be blindingly obvious. So let's assume for the sake of seamless plotting that they don't.)

You note that for some reason, some sul'dam (very few as a percent but some) seem to be held by the leash.

 

You are repeating this testing over centuries and over multiple cohorts of millions of women of different ages and keeping meticulous records.

You note that there's always a small number of older sul'dams (nearly 25-year-old) being held for each cohort you test.

You also note that there are always a small cohort of older non-sul'dam being held. Even if you note the number of older sul'dam as being higher than the statistical average it doesn't lead to any obviously sinister conclusion. If you consider sul'dam and damane to be separate but related conditions, with the possibility of both arising in the same person, and those with both conditions tend to show as damane later than is normal, why not simply conclude that being a sul'dam can delay the onset of channeling? There's no reason to conclude that being a sul'dam for a prolonged period causes one to be a marath'damane.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

It just seems far fetched that they wouldn't get the obvious truth, that's all.

 

Thing is, there is no reason it would be obvious to the Seanchan. It is only obvious to the reader because we know it to be true.

 

The Seanchan don't know about sparkers and people who can be taught.

 

As far as they know, damane (sparkers) start channeling the One Power.

 

Sul'dam (non-sparkers) can use the leash, but never channel.

 

Why would they think that they could be taught to channel?

 

As far as they are concerned, they don't even know such a thing is possible. The only channellers they know of are sparkers. They know nothing about the White Tower and other societies teaching people who are not sparkers to access the OP.

 

There would be no reason for anyone to attempt it, because any Seanchan would avoid the OP like the plague. Those that supposedly see weaves after being sul'dam for so long would not be inclined to even contemplate they can also channel like damane. Why would they? No, better to say it is just a side effect.

 

And why would anyone doubt their word? After all, they do not suddenly start channelling.

 

What is obvious to us readers is something the Seanchan, for hundreds of years, did not even know was possible. Why would the suspect something that hasn't happened ever in the records, and something that is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to them?

[Sharaman]

Here's what I mean.

Take a million women.

Say, about 10,000 will be power-capable (I'm assuming 1% of the population is spread evenly across gender - that is 1% of men and 1% of women can channel. Change the ratio and assume 5,000 if you don't think so)

Perhaps 2000-3000 will be sparkers (damane) and 7000-8000 will be sul'dam.

For example let's say it's split 3000 damane and 7000 non-damane. (Again you can take any ratio you like, remembering that sul'dam outnumber damane considerably)

 

You start testing this lot with the leash at say age 13.

First few years, you get nothing, or almost nothing. Say one Alivia and one Talaan.

Between the time they're 16-22, you catch 2500 damane (normal early sparkers) and identify 6500 sul'dam.

 

You continue testing and you start training sul'dam from this cohort,

Between 23-25, you catch 500 late sparkers, identify another 500 sul'dam, and discover that 10 sul'dam in training are also held.

(This assumes that late sparkers would not show up as sul'dam the year before they sparked. If they did, the connect would be blindingly obvious. So let's assume for the sake of seamless plotting that they don't.)

You note that for some reason, some sul'dam (very few as a percent but some) seem to be held by the leash.

 

You are repeating this testing over centuries and over multiple cohorts of millions of women of different ages and keeping meticulous records.

You note that there's always a small number of older sul'dams (nearly 25-year-old) being held for each cohort you test.

You also note that there are always a small cohort of older non-sul'dam being held. Even if you note the number of older sul'dam as being higher than the statistical average it doesn't lead to any obviously sinister conclusion. If you consider sul'dam and damane to be separate but related conditions, with the possibility of both arising in the same person, and those with both conditions tend to show as damane later than is normal, why not simply conclude that being a sul'dam can delay the onset of channeling? There's no reason to conclude that being a sul'dam for a prolonged period causes one to be a marath'damane.

 

The point(s).

Given this knowledge, your empire is hardly going to collapse if you find 3 older suldams are damane.

Also, at an anecdotal level, the knowledge would be widespread.

The Seanchan "ministry of testing and census taking" would contain many individuals who had come across this situation.

It would be something that wasn't necessarily talked about, but not a closely-heldsecret.

Hence the shock and horror expressed by the Seanchan when they "discover" this is strange

And the assumption by WoTlanders that this "secret will destroy Seanchan is hardly justified.

 

Edit: We might also have the interesting situation where say, the test happens on January 1. A woman passes the leash and registers as a sul'dam. On Jan2, she sparks.