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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Cairhenian Hairstyle


jwood01
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chonmage ... and ninja'd :)

 

Off the top of my head, it's Versailles (female) meets fuedal Japan (male), but like always there's other influence

 

Yeah, Robert Jordan's mixing and matching can really make you wonder some times. But you know they are mainly Japanese influenced because of the awesome battle standards that the noblemen wear on their backs.

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Thanks for forcing me to take another look at Cairhien society which I haven't in a long time.

 

A major difference that I didn't really catch before was the shaved and powdered Cairhien forelock began as the military cut and caught on amongst the aristocracy. In Feudal Japan, one had to be of the warrior class (samurai, aristocracy) in order to wear the top knot.

 

Robert Jordan's descriptions of the haircut in the series match up to some period fiction descriptions of how to style the samurai top knot as well: "The Tale of the Heike" (written during late Imperial and early Feudal Japan) and "Tale of Genji" (written during Imperial Japan; this book is about little more than hairstyles in my opinion [sarcasm intended])

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Thanks for forcing me to take another look at Cairhien society which I haven't in a long time.

 

A major difference that I didn't really catch before was the shaved and powdered Cairhien forelock began as the military cut and caught on amongst the aristocracy. In Feudal Japan, one had to be of the warrior class (samurai, aristocracy) in order to wear the top knot.

 

Robert Jordan's descriptions of the haircut in the series match up to some period fiction descriptions of how to style the samurai top knot as well: "The Tale of the Heike" (written during late Imperial and early Feudal Japan) and "Tale of Genji" (written during Imperial Japan; this book is about little more than hairstyles in my opinion [sarcasm intended])

 

You are wrong about the Feudal Japan Warrior Class and Aristocracy had to wear the top knot - Only the SAMURAI wore the Top Knot, Aristocracy of Japan did not and other soliders or warriors did not either...The Samurai is a way of life and was a separate class.

 

Again you should read the descriptions closer the Cairhien shaved and powdered the front of their scalp again like Ancient China (Manchurian style mostly) while the Samurai in Ancient Japan shaved the whole top of their head and then tied up into a top knot. The Ronin did not shaved the head and top knot tied differently.

The powdered head is from a period in France.

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Thanks for forcing me to take another look at Cairhien society which I haven't in a long time.

 

A major difference that I didn't really catch before was the shaved and powdered Cairhien forelock began as the military cut and caught on amongst the aristocracy. In Feudal Japan, one had to be of the warrior class (samurai, aristocracy) in order to wear the top knot.

 

Robert Jordan's descriptions of the haircut in the series match up to some period fiction descriptions of how to style the samurai top knot as well: "The Tale of the Heike" (written during late Imperial and early Feudal Japan) and "Tale of Genji" (written during Imperial Japan; this book is about little more than hairstyles in my opinion [sarcasm intended])

 

You are wrong about the Feudal Japan Warrior Class and Aristocracy had to wear the top knot - Only the SAMURAI wore the Top Knot, Aristocracy of Japan did not and other soliders or warriors did not either...The Samurai is a way of life and was a separate class.

 

Again you should read the descriptions closer the Cairhien shaved and powdered the front of their scalp again like Ancient China (Manchurian style mostly) while the Samurai in Ancient Japan shaved the whole top of their head and then tied up into a top knot. The Ronin did not shaved the head and top knot tied differently.

The powdered head is from a period in France.

 

I never said anything about anyone HAVING to wear the topknot. And during feudal times in Japan, the shogunates and whatnot, almost every aristorcrat wore the hair style and considered themselves a samurai. Things were different during the Imperial times pre-1200 AD, sure, but noone thinks of that when they think of samurai and feudal Japan. A ronin is merely a masterless samurai, the equivalent of a Japanese hedgeknight. The efficacy of the Bushido code binding samurai to a noble lifestyle is as much of a myth as the European chivalric code.

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Thanks for forcing me to take another look at Cairhien society which I haven't in a long time.

 

A major difference that I didn't really catch before was the shaved and powdered Cairhien forelock began as the military cut and caught on amongst the aristocracy. In Feudal Japan, one had to be of the warrior class (samurai, aristocracy) in order to wear the top knot.

 

Robert Jordan's descriptions of the haircut in the series match up to some period fiction descriptions of how to style the samurai top knot as well: "The Tale of the Heike" (written during late Imperial and early Feudal Japan) and "Tale of Genji" (written during Imperial Japan; this book is about little more than hairstyles in my opinion [sarcasm intended])

 

You are wrong about the Feudal Japan Warrior Class and Aristocracy had to wear the top knot - Only the SAMURAI wore the Top Knot, Aristocracy of Japan did not and other soliders or warriors did not either...The Samurai is a way of life and was a separate class.

 

Again you should read the descriptions closer the Cairhien shaved and powdered the front of their scalp again like Ancient China (Manchurian style mostly) while the Samurai in Ancient Japan shaved the whole top of their head and then tied up into a top knot. The Ronin did not shaved the head and top knot tied differently.

The powdered head is from a period in France.

 

I never said anything about anyone HAVING to wear the topknot. And during feudal times in Japan, the shogunates and whatnot, almost every aristorcrat wore the hair style and considered themselves a samurai. Things were different during the Imperial times pre-1200 AD, sure, but noone thinks of that when they think of samurai and feudal Japan. A ronin is merely a masterless samurai, the equivalent of a Japanese hedgeknight. The efficacy of the Bushido code binding samurai to a noble lifestyle is as much of a myth as the European chivalric code.

 

 

1st. Sorry you never said "HAVING" - I thought it was implied that way - So now are you implying that it was the choice of the warriors, Shoguns and whatnot (I assume you mean soliders/other warriors) could choose what ever hairstyle they wanted - that would be pretty stupid - as no army has that. even back then. and the Samurai were not even an army or part of it. They were esstienally bodyguards.

2nd. The Shogunnates and whatnot -They never considered themselves samurai - Samurai were a different class

3rd. Again the nobles did not copy the samurai - The Samurai were the guards of the Shogun and Daimyo of the time and were cntrolled by them.

4th. by the period of time you are taling about, I think you mean the Edo period, Samurai were not as such a "warrior class" they were now part of the noble ranks and attended court etc. Therefore that is where you mixing things up and by that time the Samurai class was nearly fazed out

6th. How do you know what everyone thinks

7th. Ronin were not like a hedgeknight - a Ronin was materless though but not considered samurai - Once the Master has died the Ronin were suppose to commit seppuku..the ones that did not were Ronin by Samurai and Daimyo - and not honourable.

8th. The Bushiso Code is not a myth but a true way of life and still part the japanese way of life, especially in the martial arts.

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Thanks for forcing me to take another look at Cairhien society which I haven't in a long time.

 

A major difference that I didn't really catch before was the shaved and powdered Cairhien forelock began as the military cut and caught on amongst the aristocracy. In Feudal Japan, one had to be of the warrior class (samurai, aristocracy) in order to wear the top knot.

 

Robert Jordan's descriptions of the haircut in the series match up to some period fiction descriptions of how to style the samurai top knot as well: "The Tale of the Heike" (written during late Imperial and early Feudal Japan) and "Tale of Genji" (written during Imperial Japan; this book is about little more than hairstyles in my opinion [sarcasm intended])

 

You are wrong about the Feudal Japan Warrior Class and Aristocracy had to wear the top knot - Only the SAMURAI wore the Top Knot, Aristocracy of Japan did not and other soliders or warriors did not either...The Samurai is a way of life and was a separate class.

 

Again you should read the descriptions closer the Cairhien shaved and powdered the front of their scalp again like Ancient China (Manchurian style mostly) while the Samurai in Ancient Japan shaved the whole top of their head and then tied up into a top knot. The Ronin did not shaved the head and top knot tied differently.

The powdered head is from a period in France.

 

I never said anything about anyone HAVING to wear the topknot. And during feudal times in Japan, the shogunates and whatnot, almost every aristorcrat wore the hair style and considered themselves a samurai. Things were different during the Imperial times pre-1200 AD, sure, but noone thinks of that when they think of samurai and feudal Japan. A ronin is merely a masterless samurai, the equivalent of a Japanese hedgeknight. The efficacy of the Bushido code binding samurai to a noble lifestyle is as much of a myth as the European chivalric code.

 

 

1st. Sorry you never said "HAVING" - I thought it was implied that way - So now are you implying that it was the choice of the warriors, Shoguns and whatnot (I assume you mean soliders/other warriors) could choose what ever hairstyle they wanted - that would be pretty stupid - as no army has that. even back then. and the Samurai were not even an army or part of it. They were esstienally bodyguards.

2nd. The Shogunnates and whatnot -They never considered themselves samurai - Samurai were a different class

3rd. Again the nobles did not copy the samurai - The Samurai were the guards of the Shogun and Daimyo of the time and were cntrolled by them.

4th. by the period of time you are taling about, I think you mean the Edo period, Samurai were not as such a "warrior class" they were now part of the noble ranks and attended court etc. Therefore that is where you mixing things up and by that time the Samurai class was nearly fazed out

6th. How do you know what everyone thinks

7th. Ronin were not like a hedgeknight - a Ronin was materless though but not considered samurai - Once the Master has died the Ronin were suppose to commit seppuku..the ones that did not were Ronin by Samurai and Daimyo - and not honourable.

8th. The Bushiso Code is not a myth but a true way of life and still part the japanese way of life, especially in the martial arts.

 

I've studied and read alot of Japanese history and you seem to be confusing and combining history and myth. I apologize for the brevity of my reply, I had much more typed out and it got deleted...

 

1st- The shogunates were ruling dynasties. Their leaders (the shoguns) rose to power through martial means. They were of the warrior class, sometimes even below it. The daimyo were the lords under the shoguns and their power often came the same way. In name the shoguns deferred to the emperor, but they were the true power in feudal Japan.

 

The topknot was an optional hairstyle for any males in the warrior class and up. It marked their status as both warriors and aristocrats. It was illegal for peasants to wear the hairstyle, and multiple times throughout history, people were put to death for wearing it. It would be the equivalent of pretending to be a noble in medieval Europe.

 

2nd- The samurai were not a class. They were a warrior/artist ideal. Only the aristocracy were allowed to be warriors historically, and almost all of the Japanese aristocracy considered themselves to be Samurai.This of course started after about 1100 AD.

 

From about 600AD- 1100AD, was the period known as Imperial Japan. This doesn't mean there was no emperor in Japan afterwards, there was and still is today. But during that period he, or at least the cloistered, retired emperors held most of the power. The power was concentrated in the capital, and Japan was more of a true, centralized empire.

 

 

3rd- The nobles did not copy the samurai. The nobles were the samurai. From the time the first shogunate rose from the ranks of the warrior class to conquer the country, almost all of the nobility considered themselves warriors. This is very similar to how the aristocracy of England (Peerage and Gentry) considered themselves knights waiting on the call of the king to ride to battle with their retainers.

The guards of the shogun WERE samurai. Sometimes these samurai came from the families of the daimyo. Sometimes they came from the shoguns own family. The shogun, in name was a guard and retainer of the emperor. Greater daimyo had lesser daimyo as retainers.

This is the central tenet of feudalism. Lesser lords hold fiefs granted to them by greater lords. All of the Japanese male aristocracy, in feudal Japan, considered themselves to be Samurai beholden to the Bushido code…at least in theory.

 

4th- The Edo period occurs under mostly one shogunate. I am not talking about this time period. I’m talking about “FEUDAL Japan”. This was from 1100 AD to about 1850 AD.

Almost all of the aristocracy of this period considered themselves warriors of the warrior class. This way of thinking was nearly ended when Japan was opened to the west and the merchant class began to grow in power. (A common development in many societies.)

Further, the warrior class is basically a remnant from when only the aristocracy and gentry were allowed to fight the wars. So being a warrior, essentially makes you a noble.

 

5th- No 5th.

 

6th- I don’t know what everyone thinks. The different forms of fictional media such as novels, film, television, anime, etc. all tend to portray historical Japan as feudal Japan from the big bang to modernity. This is a common misconception, and I don’t mean to put words in anyone’s mouth.

 

7th- This really a romanticized vision of seppuku ( in all of its forms). In the days when only the aristocracy was allowed to fight in battles, a defeated army of 1000 would hardly be expected to commit mass suicide. As in ancient Rome, only the high ranking officers were really expected to commit suicide to escape the shame of defeat.

A ronin was a samurai whose master was defeated and who did not choose a new master. Most actually just swore allegiance to the victor, so ronin are actually more honorable than most.

Also, only a low ranking member of the warrior class could really eve be a ronin. Most of the warrior class had land holdings of their own, so they still had an identity as a samurai and a nobleman when his master died. There were always many ronin during times of peace, second and third sons of poor aristocratic families. But during times of war, warlords would snatch them all up to officer their armies.

 

8th- The Bushido code is an ideal for a warrior artist. It was an ideal before it was ever written down, but it is only an ideal. Most warriors in feudal Japan claimed to adhere to it, but they really only did so for show. Once again, it is very similar to the chivalric code in Europe. The difference is that most westerners romanticize the Bushido Code while recognizing the Chivalric Code for the farce it really was.

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I've studied and read alot of Japanese history and you seem to be confusing and combining history and myth. I apologize for the brevity of my reply, I had much more typed out and it got deleted...

 

1st- The shogunates were ruling dynasties. Their leaders (the shoguns) rose to power through martial means. They were of the warrior class, sometimes even below it. The daimyo were the lords under the shoguns and their power often came the same way. In name the shoguns deferred to the emperor, but they were the true power in feudal Japan.

 

The topknot was an optional hairstyle for any males in the warrior class and up. It marked their status as both warriors and aristocrats. It was illegal for peasants to wear the hairstyle, and multiple times throughout history, people were put to death for wearing it. It would be the equivalent of pretending to be a noble in medieval Europe.

 

2nd- The samurai were not a class. They were a warrior/artist ideal. Only the aristocracy were allowed to be warriors historically, and almost all of the Japanese aristocracy considered themselves to be Samurai.This of course started after about 1100 AD.

 

From about 600AD- 1100AD, was the period known as Imperial Japan. This doesn't mean there was no emperor in Japan afterwards, there was and still is today. But during that period he, or at least the cloistered, retired emperors held most of the power. The power was concentrated in the capital, and Japan was more of a true, centralized empire.

 

 

3rd- The nobles did not copy the samurai. The nobles were the samurai. From the time the first shogunate rose from the ranks of the warrior class to conquer the country, almost all of the nobility considered themselves warriors. This is very similar to how the aristocracy of England (Peerage and Gentry) considered themselves knights waiting on the call of the king to ride to battle with their retainers.

The guards of the shogun WERE samurai. Sometimes these samurai came from the families of the daimyo. Sometimes they came from the shoguns own family. The shogun, in name was a guard and retainer of the emperor. Greater daimyo had lesser daimyo as retainers.

This is the central tenet of feudalism. Lesser lords hold fiefs granted to them by greater lords. All of the Japanese male aristocracy, in feudal Japan, considered themselves to be Samurai beholden to the Bushido code…at least in theory.

 

4th- The Edo period occurs under mostly one shogunate. I am not talking about this time period. I’m talking about “FEUDAL Japan”. This was from 1100 AD to about 1850 AD.

Almost all of the aristocracy of this period considered themselves warriors of the warrior class. This way of thinking was nearly ended when Japan was opened to the west and the merchant class began to grow in power. (A common development in many societies.)

Further, the warrior class is basically a remnant from when only the aristocracy and gentry were allowed to fight the wars. So being a warrior, essentially makes you a noble.

 

5th- No 5th.

 

6th- I don’t know what everyone thinks. The different forms of fictional media such as novels, film, television, anime, etc. all tend to portray historical Japan as feudal Japan from the big bang to modernity. This is a common misconception, and I don’t mean to put words in anyone’s mouth.

 

7th- This really a romanticized vision of seppuku ( in all of its forms). In the days when only the aristocracy was allowed to fight in battles, a defeated army of 1000 would hardly be expected to commit mass suicide. As in ancient Rome, only the high ranking officers were really expected to commit suicide to escape the shame of defeat.

A ronin was a samurai whose master was defeated and who did not choose a new master. Most actually just swore allegiance to the victor, so ronin are actually more honorable than most.

Also, only a low ranking member of the warrior class could really eve be a ronin. Most of the warrior class had land holdings of their own, so they still had an identity as a samurai and a nobleman when his master died. There were always many ronin during times of peace, second and third sons of poor aristocratic families. But during times of war, warlords would snatch them all up to officer their armies.

 

8th- The Bushido code is an ideal for a warrior artist. It was an ideal before it was ever written down, but it is only an ideal. Most warriors in feudal Japan claimed to adhere to it, but they really only did so for show. Once again, it is very similar to the chivalric code in Europe. The difference is that most westerners romanticize the Bushido Code while recognizing the Chivalric Code for the farce it really was.

 

I too have studied at Uni (I assuming you have a degree in this), Japanese History and lived there for a while - I think the forum is too small to even discuss this and typing responses are not good - as missing points from both sides. I feel you have only half the information. (which you probably feel the same)

 

the Edo/Tokugawa period (1603-1868 - which fits into the FEUDAL PERIOD you stated) was a period of time under a Shogunate and in fact the last one....

 

A Shogun is basically like a dictator/warlord - Military background and is leading a country - but Shoguns have been around for centuries before the Feudal Period

 

Minamoto no Yoritomo the First Shogun in Feudal Japan came from a Samurai clan (Samurais have been around since 650ad) - you said they were a warrior class not me I was following the term - when he became Shogun he also established that samurai was also an aristocracy at that time (Samurai before the Feudal System were not) they were also not the only nobles as the Daimyo were also (and not all were samurai) during the Edo/Tokugawa period they were mostly civl servants.

 

No one said 1000 poeple would have to commit seppuku - you are mixing up that only aristocrates fight wars and battles and assume that links to a failed samurai master (general) dies and then all the soliders have to kill themselves - well that is frankly stupid...its not romantisied Masterless Samurai (Ronin) were suppose to commit seppuku - this is a master to apprentice training...and if you failed in this then the ronin would have to feel this shame...when the samurai became aristocrates this did not follow so mush in the 'feudal period'...and most were unemployed samurai.

 

Like everything in this world from Christianity/Bushido/Zen/Hippies/Democracy etc etc they are all ideals until they are written down and followed..and it is the code of conduct of the samurai - it means "the way of the warrior" which is where I think you are confusing things. By the of the fuedal period it was taught at public schools

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sorry Xeratul if I sound like a bit gruff - but its getting late and I am getting tired :)

I like a good discussion and all that - but the Forum probably can not contain everything we would like to say and things and understandings could be left out

 

so please do take offence in how I write or come off

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You did come off a little gruff, but thanks for the explanation. No offense taken. There are some issues with labels and whatnot. Given that the time period we're discussing is 800 years, there could easily be some miscommunication. I am content to drop it.

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You did come off a little gruff, but thanks for the explanation. No offense taken. There are some issues with labels and whatnot. Given that the time period we're discussing is 800 years, there could easily be some miscommunication. I am content to drop it.

 

:)

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