The Grave is no bar to my call

[XoMeltdownoX]

I assumed that meant at the times when he was alive. Ages without a dark one might set the two great leaders against each other for a bit of interest, then they meet in TAR afterwards and discuss how one or the other will kick each other's ass next turning.

 

So this would be a non-Dragon incarnation and/or a non-Artur Paendrag incarnation? That makes sense. So, for example: AIUI, Hawkwing was around some considerable time after LTT and the War of the Shadow; but it's quite likely that the Hawkwing-soul may have been there - perhaps as one of Demandred's Eighty and One (ToM51).. And inversely, the LTT-soul may have been one of Hawkwing's opponents as he worked on unifying the Westlands.

 

Anyway, I like that one better than a 'Pattern-level event' or 'rift in the Pattern' approach!

LTT soul could not have fought Hawkwing while he was trying to unify the westlands or Hawkwing would have referred to him by that person's name instead of LTT.

[DaoineSidhe]

Dichotomy of HoV working for whoever calls it, yet being tied to the Dragon Soul: I think Morainne was partially right when it comes to the HoV working for whoever calls it. The HoV can fight for either the Light or the Shadow, it isn't intrinsically a weapon of the either side. It is a weapon of the Dragon Soul. And we already know from other quotes of RJ's that the Dragon Soul has fought for the Shadow in past turnings. To me, that's always been the way to explain both the HoV answering either side that blows it, AND being tied to the Dragon Soul.

 

@Wool-headed: The HoV is very OP weapon, even for a series that seems to revel in having poor balance at times in its fights. If Mat is walking around with the HoV for the whole series, blowing it whenever he wants to, the HoV will lose its significance. It won't be some miraculous weapon that can save the day when hope is gone, it'll be just another tool our three ta'veren carry around in their bag of tricks. The Horn would be cheapened. But right now, it's still a weapon of special meaning, and special strength, because while we've known about it for awhile, it's only been used once. There is still anticipation.

 

Look at Callandor, or the Choeden Kal. Due to their over-use, it is becoming more and more difficult to have Rand be able to improve upon his channelling in these later books. I mean, in ToM, Rand had to go almost complete God-mode in his destruction of that Trolloc army to impress us. (don't get me wrong, impress us he did, and I thought the scene was quite good, but was definitely very out of balance with the rest of the characters in the series).

[Terez]

It's possible the Horn is tied to Illian for the same reason the Prophecies of the Dragon say Rand will wear a Crown of Swords. Is it a coincidence that the Dragon wears the crown of Illian and Illian is also the city that legends says the Horn should be brought to? It's doubtful. Whether the legends tying the Horn to Illian are because of something said in the Prophecies or not, it's clear that it can't be a coincidence.

There is no indication Illian is tied to the Horn through legends. Illian is tied to the Horn because they are the ones that kept calling the Great Hunt.

 

Wrong again.

 

The gleeman pushed back his chair and went to stare out of the window. "The Horn of Valere. That means the Last Battle is coming. Who will notice? Did you see the people laughing in the streets out there? Let the grain barges stop a week, and they won't laugh. Galldrian will think they've all become Aiel. The nobles all play the Game of Houses, scheming to get close to the King, scheming to gain more power than the King, scheming to pull down Galldrian and be the next King. Or Queen. They will think Tarmon Gai'don is only a ploy in the Game." He turned away from the window. "I don't suppose you are talking about simply riding to Shienar and handing the Horn to – who? – the King? Why Shienar? The legends all tie the Horn to Illian."

 

Unless you want to argue that Thom doesn't know anything about the legends. And Moiraine also believed that it 'must' be taken to Illian.

[Siswai_Dar]

this discussion made me think... what will happen to Birgitte and Gaidal when Mat blow the horn? will it affect them? after all Gaidal should be only a baby right now,...

[Terez]

^{It shouldn't affect either of them since they're both incarnate. Birgitte's incarnation is somewhat unnatural, but she's still incarnate.}

[FarShainMael]

I assumed that meant at the times when he was alive. Ages without a dark one might set the two great leaders against each other for a bit of interest, then they meet in TAR afterwards and discuss how one or the other will kick each other's ass next turning.

 

So this would be a non-Dragon incarnation and/or a non-Artur Paendrag incarnation? That makes sense. So, for example: AIUI, Hawkwing was around some considerable time after LTT and the War of the Shadow; but it's quite likely that the Hawkwing-soul may have been there - perhaps as one of Demandred's Eighty and One (ToM51).. And inversely, the LTT-soul may have been one of Hawkwing's opponents as he worked on unifying the Westlands.

 

Anyway, I like that one better than a 'Pattern-level event' or 'rift in the Pattern' approach!

LTT soul could not have fought Hawkwing while he was trying to unify the westlands or Hawkwing would have referred to him by that person's name instead of LTT.

 

So he would, my mistake (in the detail, anyway).

[FarShainMael]

this discussion made me think... what will happen to Birgitte and Gaidal when Mat blow the horn? will it affect them? after all Gaidal should be only a baby right now,...

 

I suspect Birgitte will die in the fighting in Caemlyn - which will put her back in T'A'R ready to be spun out normally. Recall Min's Viewings of her future:

 

Auras danced around her {Birgitte} and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

[Terez]

That quote is actually evidence of the opposite. If she were returned to Tel'aran'rhiod, then there would be no reason for her birth cycle to be disrupted, and before that happened she was always born after Gaidal. So he is always older.

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine told Loial when she first opened the chest that it must go to Illian, she told Agelmar that it must go there. Suian said it must be taken to Illian, Illian was where it was to go before it was stolen. To think that they only thought it needed to be there because Illian liked calling the hunt is ridiculous. There is something that ties the horn to Illian, and I hope it is explained in aMoL.

Why is it ridiculous? If Illian always calls the Great Hunt, then you can try to bind Illian to you with the Horn. As Rand has bound Illian to him anyway, there is no real need to take the Horn there. The practical purpose it would have served has already been achieved.

[Terez]

Unless Tuon attacks across the border...which she has been planning to do for a long time now despite setbacks...

[Orderofolde]

Unless Tuon attacks across the border...which she has been planning to do for a long time now despite setbacks...

Do you not think that by now she realizes the last battle is coming and through either Rand and prophecy kneeling or Mat influencing things they will form some kind of alliance and turn to face the Shadow, rather than trying to invade further into new lands or hit the White Tower again until at least the last battle is decided?

[FarShainMael]

That quote is actually evidence of the opposite. If she were returned to Tel'aran'rhiod, then there would be no reason for her birth cycle to be disrupted, and before that happened she was always born after Gaidal. So he is always older.

 

We've discussed this before, and our opinions differ thus (requoting for clarity):

 

"Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

 

You interpret the bolded phrase as the viewings being of Birgitte as the person who was indicated in the viewings.

 

I interpret the bolded phrase as the viewings being of Birgitte as the person who was standing before her at that moment.

 

Either could be right.

 

(edited for messy grammar)

[TristanWebb]

Could I get the quote that says Birgitte is always younger please? I know there is one at the first meeting that says Gaidel is usually born before her, but I can't find the one that says always.

[FarShainMael]

Could I get the quote that says Birgitte is always younger please? I know there is one at the first meeting that says Gaidel is usually born before her, but I can't find the one that says always.

 

The 'usually' quote is in TSR52. Wait one while I dig it out..

 

ETA:

 

"We have almost always been linked.. He is usually born well before me - so I know my time approaches again when I cannot find him."

 

I suppose the 'usually' could refer to the time interval between them being quite long.. but without a specific 'always' quote we can't decide.

[TristanWebb]

I have been looking a bit on one of the links in Terez's sig, and the clostest I can find is a Nynaeve PoV saying

Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

in tFoH 14. I don't think it explains the disparity between 'man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger' though, that seems to indicate that the rebirth cycle will be disrupted by the pulling out. it seems that the viewing is of specific ages, x years older and y younger and nothing in between. Though it might just be this lifetime when she is older and the next one when she is younger.

 

Min has never seen images around Rand that indicate rebirths though, so at the very least it shows that the Pattern is treating Birgitte differently than the only other cyclic rebirth that we know of.

[FarShainMael]

I have been looking a bit on one of the links in Terez's sig, and the clostest I can find is a Nynaeve PoV saying

Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

in tFoH 14. I don't think it explains the disparity between 'man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger' though, that seems to indicate that the rebirth cycle will be disrupted by the pulling out. it seems that the viewing is of specific ages, x years older and y younger and nothing in between. Though it might just be this lifetime when she is older and the next one when she is younger.

 

Min has never seen images around Rand that indicate rebirths though, so at the very least it shows that the Pattern is treating Birgitte differently than the only other cyclic rebirth that we know of.

 

I'm uncertain about Birgitte's actual condition at the moment. I get the impression that her 'life' is not real, but is somehow borrowed from Elayne through the Warder bond. If so, it might be that she is still partly in T'A'R in some way, and that is why Min views so many of her future lives while not seeing Rand's - or, indeed, anyone else's (because it seems that everyone gets reborn T'A'R dweller or otherwise).

[Terez]

Unless Tuon attacks across the border...which she has been planning to do for a long time now despite setbacks...

Do you not think that by now she realizes the last battle is coming and through either Rand and prophecy kneeling or Mat influencing things they will form some kind of alliance and turn to face the Shadow, rather than trying to invade further into new lands or hit the White Tower again until at least the last battle is decided?

 

I think it will take Rand's death to make her realize that. If there weren't three or four quotes at least pointing to activity in that direction, I might think it unlikely, but not because I think she will back off without a fight. If nothing else she'll be attacking Tar Valon. Also, (dust jacket blurb spoilers)...

 

 

We know that Mat goes to Ebou Dar early in the book, but it still seems unlikely that he's going to solve a series-long conflict with sex. It will be more complicated than Tuon just up and deciding that she needs to stop fighting Rand.

 

 

As it is, I'm not even saying that she will necessarily go ahead with the invasion of Illian before the truce is reached...just that it's a possibility for something that could tie the horn to Illian. Just because Rand has the throne does not mean that there are no opportunities for the Horn to be used there; it was a faulty premise, and I addressed it.

[WMBunt]

I'm probably wrong, but I read it as the two statements could both be true at the same time. My interpretation on first read (and has been since then but now I'm wondering) was that the heroes of the Horn follow whomever blows the horn. The qualification that I got out of Hawkwing's statement was that the Dragon has to have been declared and his banner had to fly.

 

I took it to mean they would not be summoned and fight with a Dragon undeclared, but once a Dragon had been declared if it were to fall into the wrong hands, someone could actually use the HoV to summon the heroes to fight against the Dragon. Two requirements in place, but neither tied together prohibiting one from being false. Same word with two different meanings also.

 

We follow whomever blows the Horn = whomever blows the Horn shall lead us.

We follow the banner = we cannot fight until the banner has been raised (no implicit statement that we fight FOR whomever raises the banner).

 

Thus spake Hawkwing:

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters.. You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

OTOH, he also said, earlier:

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more."

 

I honestly can't see how he would 'face' LTT and at the same time follow the Dragon.

 

It's definitely an interesting dichotomy and one I could see RJ setting up. He does like to use the same word and have it mean two different things to cloud the issue. Follow. Does it have to mean an action or can it mean an action in one instance and in the same breath be used to indicate a timeframe? Meaning they came to the horn and the banner is there, but the Dragon has not yet declared himself so we can take no action. In that case they are doing both, following the blower of the horn and following the declaration of the dragon. An interesting potential twist of words. Truth, but is it the truth we thought we heard?

 

They come, but until the moment Rand accepts himself as the Dragon and takes action to declare it so......the Heroes were impotent to act. I think it's no also no coincidence that the Pattern worked in very much the same way with the false Dragons being allowed in the weave until that moment, too.

 

Again, just a possibility for how that the truth Moiraine spoke can be true and not sound true at the same time.

[FarShainMael]

It's possible the Horn is tied to Illian for the same reason the Prophecies of the Dragon say Rand will wear a Crown of Swords. Is it a coincidence that the Dragon wears the crown of Illian and Illian is also the city that legends says the Horn should be brought to? It's doubtful. Whether the legends tying the Horn to Illian are because of something said in the Prophecies or not, it's clear that it can't be a coincidence.

 

Here's something else that I don't think is a coincidence.. The former king of Illian was Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar. 'Stephanos' is the Greek word for crown:

 

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4735

 

I think that crown is somehow significant. In fact I wondered whether it's the 'other sa'angreal more powerful than the Choedan Kal that a man can use' (TSR9).. but if it is, I think Rand would have sensed that. Pity.

[Guest The Kentucky Warrier]

I assumed that meant at the times when he was alive. Ages without a dark one might set the two great leaders against each other for a bit of interest, then they meet in TAR afterwards and discuss how one or the other will kick each other's ass next turning.

 

So this would be a non-Dragon incarnation and/or a non-Artur Paendrag incarnation? That makes sense. So, for example: AIUI, Hawkwing was around some considerable time after LTT and the War of the Shadow; but it's quite likely that the Hawkwing-soul may have been there - perhaps as one of Demandred's Eighty and One (ToM51).. And inversely, the LTT-soul may have been one of Hawkwing's opponents as he worked on unifying the Westlands.

 

Anyway, I like that one better than a 'Pattern-level event' or 'rift in the Pattern' approach!

I meant like maybe Marc Antony with his love for Cleopatra was the Dragon and Hawkwing was Augustus. Or the empire building Hawkwing was Hitler vs the gather the nations Dragon as Churchill. Maybe they will be on either side of the Raven empire in the fourth age. Or the same side. They are reborn again and again and we know nothing of atleast four of the seven ages. As long as the Dragon doesn't have to be the light incarnate to fight the dark one like in the third and putting out an opposing force won't destroy the pattern in like in the second or third, then they could be spun out in unprecedented ways.

 

Though, spinning out a hero and having him commit genocide would probably mess with him in TAR a bit when he come back to his baseline personality.

 

Great insight into a fascinating paradox. The heros of the pattern are remembered, it seems, from their greatest birth or life in recent history but the wheel has and will turn forever, time without end. So who are these heros really? We know two recursions of LTT - him and Rand. Who was Hawkwing born as before he was Hawkwing? Or was he born first as Hawkwing and tied to the pattern because of his achievements in that life? Probably not the case since he has battled with/against LTT countless times across the ages. I think the "time without end" bit is a little overboard in itself - Why is the Creator named as such if he did not create something that began when it was created. And RJ constantly refers to the beginning. The Dark One was sealed and the moment of creation .... It was not the beginning but a beginning .... and so on.

 

No doubt that the raising of the banner was a pattern level event - confirmed by all the false dragons being thrown down at or near the same time this happened and no others rising after. The pattern required a dragon and kept spitting out ones until the real dragon declared. But regardless of that happening at the same time the horn was blown (or because of it - when would Rand have declared if Mat did not blow the horn at that moment?) Hawkwing (in his all knowing TAR form) states that the heros of the ages come to the call of the horn but must follow the banner. I believe this is literal and does not mean the can only be called "after" the banner has been raised (clearly not the case since they came before Rand delcared and flew his banner) but when they are called they will not fight or act unless the dragon banner is there for them to follow - meaning they rally behind the banner and fight for the banner and the dragon, whichever side he happens to be on.

 

I love this discussion. I have only given it serious thought since starting my nth reread leading up to AMOL. Mat will blow the horn again - I'm fairly convinced that will happen anyway - I hope. But I also would like to know the answer to the question and if Mat did lose his link to the horn from his apparent death and rebirth in rhuidean then maybe we have something unexpected awaiting us in the finale.

[Vels]

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

 

Also, is it assumed that all ter-angreal in existence at the time of the series were created in the AoL? If so, it would imply that the HoV was only created in the AoL. If you assume that the horn was created during the AoL, it would make sense that it was created during the War of Power since the entire concept of war and fighting for good and evil were unknown concepts until the Bore was drilled. Perhaps the creators placed these potentially conflicting requirements on the Horn - heroes had to obey the sounder, and they had to fight for the Light (the Dragon).

[FarShainMael]

Great insight into a fascinating paradox. The heros of the pattern are remembered, it seems, from their greatest birth or life in recent history but the wheel has and will turn forever, time without end. So who are these heros really? We know two recursions of LTT - him and Rand. Who was Hawkwing born as before he was Hawkwing? Or was he born first as Hawkwing and tied to the pattern because of his achievements in that life? Probably not the case since he has battled with/against LTT countless times across the ages. I think the "time without end" bit is a little overboard in itself - Why is the Creator named as such if he did not create something that began when it was created. And RJ constantly refers to the beginning. The Dark One was sealed and the moment of creation .... It was not the beginning but a beginning .... and so on.

 

There was a beginning from the Creator's PoV, but not from the Randlanders. The Creator made time as well as space, therefore He is outside time and space. He has His own timeline which is not that of His creation.

 

if Mat did lose his link to the horn from his apparent death and rebirth in rhuidean

 

Mat didn't die in Rhuidean, though he did have a near-death experience there. However, he did die at Rahvin's hand during the battle in Caemlyn (TFoH54), to be unkilled by Rand's balefiring Rahvin (TFoH55). We don't know if this unlinked Mat from the Horn. Birgitte seems to think that it didn't, because when they meet and he recognises her in Ebou Dar (ACoS21) she addresses him (in the Old Tongue!) as 'Sounder of the Horn' - which is what he was when they met at Falme. but it's entirely possible that this unkilling did unlink Mat. It was significant enough for the Aelfinn to notice (TSR15), after all. And so, as you say, it would be a neat twist!

[Orderofolde]

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

 

Also, is it assumed that all ter-angreal in existence at the time of the series were created in the AoL? If so, it would imply that the HoV was only created in the AoL. If you assume that the horn was created during the AoL, it would make sense that it was created during the War of Power since the entire concept of war and fighting for good and evil were unknown concepts until the Bore was drilled. Perhaps the creators placed these potentially conflicting requirements on the Horn - heroes had to obey the sounder, and they had to fight for the Light (the Dragon).

From what I understand the Horn of Valere is something from an age before the AOl, from the AOL we know the bits and hints of the legend then that accompanied it, much like the portal stones are from an older age before the AOL.

[Orderofolde]

Great insight into a fascinating paradox. The heros of the pattern are remembered, it seems, from their greatest birth or life in recent history but the wheel has and will turn forever, time without end. So who are these heros really? We know two recursions of LTT - him and Rand. Who was Hawkwing born as before he was Hawkwing? Or was he born first as Hawkwing and tied to the pattern because of his achievements in that life? Probably not the case since he has battled with/against LTT countless times across the ages. I think the "time without end" bit is a little overboard in itself - Why is the Creator named as such if he did not create something that began when it was created. And RJ constantly refers to the beginning. The Dark One was sealed and the moment of creation .... It was not the beginning but a beginning .... and so on.

 

There was a beginning from the Creator's PoV, but not from the Randlanders. The Creator made time as well as space, therefore He is outside time and space. He has His own timeline which is not that of His creation.

 

if Mat did lose his link to the horn from his apparent death and rebirth in rhuidean

 

Mat didn't die in Rhuidean, though he did have a near-death experience there. However, he did die at Rahvin's hand during the battle in Caemlyn (TFoH54), to be unkilled by Rand's balefiring Rahvin (TFoH55). We don't know if this unlinked Mat from the Horn. Birgitte seems to think that it didn't, because when they meet and he recognises her in Ebou Dar (ACoS21) she addresses him (in the Old Tongue!) as 'Sounder of the Horn' - which is what he was when they met at Falme. but it's entirely possible that this unkilling did unlink Mat. It was significant enough for the Aelfinn to notice (TSR15), after all. And so, as you say, it would be a neat twist!

As to the death in Caemlyn, I believe it was already stated that with Balefire, Rahvin died before he had ever killed Mat at which point he also ceased to ever have existed, so everything was set right all the way back to the point the Balefire reached back and pulled him from the moment that he was ripped entirely out of the pattern. (Wow, I just have to stop and think, if Rand and Co. Balefire all of the Forsaken, so that they never existed, how much from the start would be undone? I know the DO can find thousands of willing patsies, but this is some pretty intense thought-provoking stuff, Balefire is!) This is one of the problems discovered in the War with the Shadow, plus the side effects of the Balescream when they were blasting away entire cities, they realized the pattern itself was being unraveled. So only we and Rand remember that Mat died because it was all undone, so because he was never killed, the link was never broken.

[Mr Ares]

As to the death in Caemlyn, I believe it was already stated that with Balefire, Rahvin died before he had ever killed Mat at which point he also ceased to ever have existed, so everything was set right all the way back to the point the Balefire reached back and pulled him from the moment that he was ripped entirely out of the pattern. (Wow, I just have to stop and think, if Rand and Co. Balefire all of the Forsaken, so that they never existed, how much from the start would be undone?)

Impossible. Even with the Choedan Kal it would be impossible to produce enough balefire to prevent one of the Chosen from ever having existed. Erase a few weeks at best. When Rahvin was balefired, he died before he killed Mat, but didn't cease to ever have existed, he merely died a few hours or so before Rand balefired him.

 

When it was implied that Gaidal was reborn during this series I could never figure out what was the point of an infant hero during TG? It would make sense not to weave out any heroes and save them all for when the horn was blown during the Last Battle.

The point is there will be a need for heroes after TG. He is spun out now so he will be ready when he is needed.