Egwene's headaches

[lenardo]

if i remember correctly, prior to when the ashamen came to announce that the tower could bond ashamen on an equal basis to the bonded women, women could not sense/see male channeling, but one of the women there had a new technique that got demonstrated and thus proved she could sense who was being channeled at by a male. as to seeing, nope the ONLY time a woman can "SEE" the saiden is if they are in a circle with a male channeler- see rand and nynaeve's link when saiden is cleansed.

 

on the male side, as far as i know rand gets "goose bumps" when women channel around him, other than that they cannot see/sense just like the women

[Vardar]

if i remember correctly, prior to when the ashamen came to announce that the tower could bond ashamen on an equal basis to the bonded women, women could not sense/see male channeling, but one of the women there had a new technique that got demonstrated and thus proved she could sense who was being channeled at by a male. as to seeing, nope the ONLY time a woman can "SEE" the saiden is if they are in a circle with a male channeler- see rand and nynaeve's link when saiden is cleansed.

 

on the male side, as far as i know rand gets "goose bumps" when women channel around him, other than that they cannot see/sense just like the women

 

Wait, she doesn't see the weaves when linked right? I thought she just senses the source and weaves it along with hers. I.e. she pulls fire from both sources and weaves as she would her own source.

[FarShainMael]

Can someone confirm or refute that female channellers can't detect saidin weaves, and males can't detect weaves in saidar? I must check TPoD5, when the Bowl of Winds was being used..

 

They can't. Remember Rand's battle with Lanfear, he says' he can't see the weaves but he can slice them. He knows she is channelling and so slices away. Same with Verin and Halmina at the cleansing. She says she doesn't need to see the weaves to stop them.

 

Although an AS discovers how to tell which weave was used later in the camp right?

 

And I've found the bit about the Bowl:

 

Suddenly, she realised something else. That ever-changing lacework of saidar bent itself around somethingh else, something unseen that made the column solid. She swallowed, hard. The Bowl was drawing saidin] as well as saidar.

[FarShainMael]

By giving Egwene headaches that only she can cure, Halima put herself in a very close and immovable position next to the leader of a huge group of female channelers. That reason alone is justification enough for Halima to have been giving her headaches and then curing them each night. A woman who can't channel is usually considered dirt compared to other Aes Sedai, but since Halima possessed such a unique and necessary service she was allowed to stick around and spy on things from the Amyrlin's tent herself. It gave Halima the perfect excuse to sit around, gather information, and be in a position to do anything the Nae'blis or DO asked of her.

 

Good point.. but I'm sure she could have taken the opportunity that gave her to do some of those other things I mentioned. Perhaps she did.

[Vardar]

Can someone confirm or refute that female channellers can't detect saidin weaves, and males can't detect weaves in saidar? I must check TPoD5, when the Bowl of Winds was being used..

 

They can't. Remember Rand's battle with Lanfear, he says' he can't see the weaves but he can slice them. He knows she is channelling and so slices away. Same with Verin and Halmina at the cleansing. She says she doesn't need to see the weaves to stop them.

 

Although an AS discovers how to tell which weave was used later in the camp right?

 

And I've found the bit about the Bowl:

 

Suddenly, she realised something else. That ever-changing lacework of saidar bent itself around somethingh else, something unseen that made the column solid. She swallowed, hard. The Bowl was drawing saidin] as well as saidar.

 

Well yea I knew that bit. They can't see the other sides, but they can see what it bends around. Both menand women mention that at different times.

[Knivy]

I seem to remember something about women gaining the upper hand again after they learn men can sense them channeling, but maybe it was just some of the ter'angreal that point to the man who is channeling...

 

I remember this because I was furious when i found out they had an advantage over men the first time I read that part...

[FarShainMael]

@Vardarmus: exactly. They can sometimes detect its effects, but they can't sense a weave directly.

 

@Knivy: But they've had a major advantage over men since LTT sealed the bore: they don't go insane But seriously, that was probably Cadsuane thinking that!

[Luckers]

I seem to remember something about women gaining the upper hand again after they learn men can sense them channeling, but maybe it was just some of the ter'angreal that point to the man who is channeling...

 

I remember this because I was furious when i found out they had an advantage over men the first time I read that part...

 

That was a thought from Rand, in reference to the weave that is tested on Narishma when he visits the Rebel hall in KoD--the one which enables a woman to sense feel the channeling, and the movement of the weaves, but not which of the Five Powers is being woven.

[Vardar]

I seem to remember something about women gaining the upper hand again after they learn men can sense them channeling, but maybe it was just some of the ter'angreal that point to the man who is channeling...

 

I remember this because I was furious when i found out they had an advantage over men the first time I read that part...

 

That was a thought from Rand, in reference to the weave that is tested on Narishma when he visits the Rebel hall in KoD--the one which enables a woman to sense feel the channeling, and the movement of the weaves, but not which of the Five Powers is being woven.

 

Still not an advantage since it takes an active weave to do it. I thought the AS knew what power was used, she said spirit right?

 

But yea, Men keep that advantage althought they are at a disadvantage since they can't tell another man who can channel by looking (Kinda really sucks).

 

So men can invert weaves, but they can't hide what they're channeling? Where was that confirmed? (Read that on the boards somewhere)

[Knivy]

I seem to remember something about women gaining the upper hand again after they learn men can sense them channeling, but maybe it was just some of the ter'angreal that point to the man who is channeling...

 

I remember this because I was furious when i found out they had an advantage over men the first time I read that part...

 

That was a thought from Rand, in reference to the weave that is tested on Narishma when he visits the Rebel hall in KoD--the one which enables a woman to sense feel the channeling, and the movement of the weaves, but not which of the Five Powers is being woven.

That is exactly it!

[Luckers]

I seem to remember something about women gaining the upper hand again after they learn men can sense them channeling, but maybe it was just some of the ter'angreal that point to the man who is channeling...

 

I remember this because I was furious when i found out they had an advantage over men the first time I read that part...

 

That was a thought from Rand, in reference to the weave that is tested on Narishma when he visits the Rebel hall in KoD--the one which enables a woman to sense feel the channeling, and the movement of the weaves, but not which of the Five Powers is being woven.

 

Still not an advantage since it takes an active weave to do it. I thought the AS knew what power was used, she said spirit right?

 

But yea, Men keep that advantage althought they are at a disadvantage since they can't tell another man who can channel by looking (Kinda really sucks).

 

 

Firstly, no. Narishma tells Saroiya not to freak out that it was only spirit. The Aes Sedai (can't remember her name at the moment... began with an M. She was Malkieri. Romanda thinks she's not too bright) said she thought she would have been able to, but couldn't.

 

Secondly depends on your definition of advantage. Any element which increases your ability to act against another is an advantage, no matter how clunky.

 

So men can invert weaves, but they can't hide what they're channeling? Where was that confirmed? (Read that on the boards somewhere)

 

Man can invert weaves (this is hiding the weaves after they're woven). They can also hide what they're channeling (this is called reversing the weave, and we see Demandred use it at the cleansing).

[WMBunt]

Gonna go back tonight and find the exact incident when I have books in front of me, but are we certain that Halima was giving Egwene the headaches? I only ask this because the headaches began before Halima enters the picture and before Egwene is even called back to Salidar.

 

I'm on yet another re-read and the headaches began in Cairhien when she was with the Wise Ones and Rand was splitting his time between Cairhien and Caemlyn. She is even "prohibited" from entering T'A'R by the Wise Ones because of the headaches. She goes against their wishes, of course, but they tell her something is wrong and there is a long arc about them checking on her and she misses meetings with the Salidar AS and Elayne/Nyn because of the headaches.

[FarShainMael]

Weren't the first headaches an after-effect of Lanfear's attack on her and Avi (before Moiraine dragged them both into 'finnland)?

[WMBunt]

Weren't the first headaches an after-effect of Lanfear's attack on her and Avi (before Moiraine dragged them both into 'finnland)?

 

Is possible. I just remember a specific quote from a Wise One who said she shouldn't be experiencing the headaches and they were keeping her out of T'A'R until they were certain it wouldn't happen. Good call though. Like I said, I'll check again when I get home (unless you have your books with you). It just struck me when I was reading it this time through and I thought about the Halima thing.

[Knivy]

The headaches were mostly gone before she returned to the Salidar AS. I dont remember when she starts having them again, but i dont think they are mentioned again till Halima is...

[FarShainMael]

Weren't the first headaches an after-effect of Lanfear's attack on her and Avi (before Moiraine dragged them both into 'finnland)?

 

Is possible. I just remember a specific quote from a Wise One who said she shouldn't be experiencing the headaches and they were keeping her out of T'A'R until they were certain it wouldn't happen. Good call though. Like I said, I'll check again when I get home (unless you have your books with you). It just struck me when I was reading it this time through and I thought about the Halima thing.

 

Lanfear's attack on Egwene, Avi, and Rand takes place in TFoH52/53. Moiraine grabs her and they both fall through the redstone doorway to 'finnland.

 

We see in TFoH53 that Egwene is badly hurt:

 

"She still breathes." Aviendha sounded uncertain how long that would continue, but Egwene's eyes fluttered open as Amys and Bair pushed roughly past Rand with Melaine and Sorilea. The Wise Ones knelt clustered around the younger women, murmuring tp themselves and each other as they examined Egwene.

 

They forbid Egwene from trying to enter T'A'R until she is stronger, which will take 'som days', threatening to hand her care to Sorilea if she even thinks of disobeying.

 

(Isn't there a theory that Sorilea may be a DF..?)

 

We next hear from Egwene in LoC15, and she wakes with a headache. She thinks:

 

Since the day Lanfear had nearly killed her and Aviendha.. her head always hurt after a visit to T'A'R, though never enough to be a real bother.

 

These visits were without the WO's permission, because it isn't until LoC24 that they finally give her permission, and she thinks to herself "I haven't had a headache in days'. They are still in Cairhien at the time.

[WMBunt]

Right. I was looking through that last night when I got home before bed. So we have established that the headaches did begin beforehand and are related to a use of the power on her (although Avi didn't experience the headaches, probably because Lanfear held her "a moment less"). So Halima could be doing the same thing that Lanfear did, although Lanfear would have not likely been using Compulsion on Eg/Avi because she was seeking to torture and kill.

 

Such an odd red-herring, I guess. We have Elayne mentioning a headache immediately after Moghedien uses Compulsion on them in Tanchico.

 

"A nice woman," Elayne said, rubbing her forehead. She had a headache coming on. (TSR, Ch. 46 Veils, p. 760)

 

Then Egwene gets headaches after the power is used on her in an attack, but it's tied to her trips to T'A'R. Then the headaches come back with Halima.

 

Sorry for the waste of time. HAHA. It just hit me during the re-read that I was like "I wonder if this is significant or one of them is meant to throw us off? Or is there a deeper clue?"

[FarShainMael]

Egwene got her headaches originally after the WO treated her injuries from the attack.

 

So it may not be a red herring after all; it may point to one of those WO being a DF.

 

Reminding ourselves of who those WO were: Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea. And they didn't want Egwene going into T'A'R; except that she did go without their permission, and without harm.

 

Hmm.

[Sephie913]

That line of thought creeps me out-- Egwene isn't little-miss-snooty throughout the whole series. Not really. She's in the hands of evil (or close enough)women from halfway through TGH, and into TGS? That's scary. And, according to this theory, she still might be under Compulsion from any of the numerous DF/Forsaken that have been manipulating her?

 

That actually makes me feel sorry for her.

[Maleshub]

That line of thought creeps me out-- Egwene isn't little-miss-snooty throughout the whole series. Not really. She's in the hands of evil (or close enough)women from halfway through TGH, and into TGS? That's scary. And, according to this theory, she still might be under Compulsion from any of the numerous DF/Forsaken that have been manipulating her?

 

That actually makes me feel sorry for her.

 

Except that she cleansed the WT of the Black Ajah; and delivered a severe blow to the Shadow. The Black Ajah infiltrating the WT for 2000 years and Egwene destroyed it (not taking away Verin's credit or minimizing it at all).

[Luckers]

Egwene got her headaches originally after the WO treated her injuries from the attack.

 

So it may not be a red herring after all; it may point to one of those WO being a DF.

 

Reminding ourselves of who those WO were: Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea. And they didn't want Egwene going into T'A'R; except that she did go without their permission, and without harm.

 

Hmm.

 

I think it's more likely that Halima took advantage of the headaches and extended them.

[Trakand]

Hey guy's,

 

I am coming back to this topic after setting it aside for a few weeks. I finished the series, and I feel it gives me a little more perspective on the subject. I having a hard time believing that Egwene was under a weave of compulsion. Halima never tells her to do something specifically. When Morgase was under Rahvin's control, He exerted much more control upon her. I highly doubt that Aran'gar was the puppetmaster behind gathering power behind egwene. I believe that was achieved with the help of Siuan and Egwene herself. I believe Halima's motive behind Egwene's headaches was so she could gather information to manipulate the situation in the Rebel Aes Sedai camp. She had a person of power wrapped up her finger. We will never truly know unless a Asha'man examines Egwene for compulsion, since it was accomplished with Saidin. I just find it extremely unlikely.

 

I am trying to look for a turning point in Egwene's actions to determine when she was a tampered with, and I just can not find it. I suspect her actions are her own, even if they might seem incredulous if you do not put yourself in her situation. A tell-tale sign that the headaches were directly from Halima would be the cause and effect of separation from her. Before she was separated from Halima, Egwene had headaches. After she was captured by the white tower, She experienced great physical abuse while under great stress. Implicitly however, she displays no need for treatment from Halima to fix. I believe that is telling. We have to remember that Egwene is under a great deal of pressure and stress. She is thrust into a position that most people never have to experience. I feel that it is extremely disingenuous to simply deem every action that Egwene makes as compulsion. I do not believe that Halima was omnisicient. I do however believe there is a part of Egwene's personality that subconsciously desires power. It is often hard to relinquish it after have a taste.

 

Hope you are having good evening.

P.S. I am proud of the discussion that is occurring because of my initial question

[Luckers]

I having a hard time believing that Egwene was under a weave of compulsion. Halima never tells her to do something specifically. When Morgase was under Rahvin's control, He exerted much more control upon her.

 

Well, the fact is that if Halima was compelling Egwene she wouldn't have been doing it to the degree that Rahvin did with Morgase because that sort of compulsion causes changes in behaviour that are noticeable, and identifiable if you know the signs--both through simple observation and through delving, given the stronger the compulsion the longer the trace lasts. Given that Aes Sedai are better equiped to notice either, any strong, or even medium strength compulsion, therefore ran the risk of being detected.

 

The most she could have done was give nudges.

[Trakand]

I agree that it might have been subtle compulsion nudges. I need to look for some quotes. I believed she gained increased access to Rebel Aes Sedai plans.

[Maleshub]

I having a hard time believing that Egwene was under a weave of compulsion. Halima never tells her to do something specifically. When Morgase was under Rahvin's control, He exerted much more control upon her.

 

Well, the fact is that if Halima was compelling Egwene she wouldn't have been doing it to the degree that Rahvin did with Morgase because that sort of compulsion causes changes in behaviour that are noticeable, and identifiable if you know the signs--both through simple observation and through delving, given the stronger the compulsion the longer the trace lasts. Given that Aes Sedai are better equiped to notice either, any strong, or even medium strength compulsion, therefore ran the risk of being detected.

 

The most she could have done was give nudges.

 

The evidence of these nudges would have to be in Egwene's actions. What did Egwene do during the "Halima" timeframe that directly served the Shadow? Most of her initiatives seemed to go against the interests of the Shadow:

- Gaining power and authority and ending the notion she is a "child" had Aran'gar admitting that she is a "child" no more.

- Breaking the facade of activity and purpose in stationary Salidar and setting in motion the process of unifying the Tower

- Building an army and marching to unify the WT

- Sending the Ebou Dar mission that secured the ter'angreal cache and broke the DO's hold on the weather (temporarily)

- Opening the novice book to allow hundreds of new initiates to enter training

- Milking Moghedien of several discoveries, most notably Traveling, which the DO punished Moghe for.

 

Post Halima, Egwene:

- With Verin's help, decapitated the BA and ended their 2K year infiltration of the WT

- Unified the WT

- Unraveled the Shadow's plan to destroy the WT, and managed to take Mesaana out.

- Continued to build up the WT army's strength under Gareth Bryne to fight in TG.

 

The question is: "If Egwene was under any degree of compulsion, what actions did she carry out that can be labeled as helping the Shadow?"