Murandy vs history

[Durinax]

I started reading a book about the roman empire that focuses on the military might and how their weapons and tactics are.

 

One startling thing I read was that pre unification Italy was basically the same as Murandy with many lords with a more clan based system, with the people being fiercely independant.

 

Another interesting one was that the Germanic tribes where much the same way, and in being so where in fact able to resist the empire.

 

Now to tie it into WoT. The Murandians are very independant, have a clan based society that their lords head, are constantly raiding and fighting each other (much like the aiel actually) Who pulled together under one banner, much like the ancient romans, due to an external threat, real or percieved.

 

Thought this was interesting so I would share

[Maleshub]

There are other examples in history. The only two I can think of right away are the Arabs pre-Mohammad and the Mongols pre-Genghis Khan.

 

In these cases where a charismatic leader unifies a national or multi-national entity, the key is the leader who builds a sustainable unified model. And in Muruday's case, we have Roedran (some say manipulated by Demandred) acting the role of "binder."

[Durinax]

There are other examples in history. The only two I can think of right away are the Arabs pre-Mohammad and the Mongols pre-Genghis Khan.

 

In these cases where a charismatic leader unifies a national or multi-national entity, the key is the leader who builds a sustainable unified model. And in Muruday's case, we have Roedran (some say manipulated by Demandred) acting the role of "binder."

and in all these cases the nation/people rose to great heights. . . I wonder if we are seeing a very accelerated version of this

[Maleshub]

There are other examples in history. The only two I can think of right away are the Arabs pre-Mohammad and the Mongols pre-Genghis Khan.

 

In these cases where a charismatic leader unifies a national or multi-national entity, the key is the leader who builds a sustainable unified model. And in Muruday's case, we have Roedran (some say manipulated by Demandred) acting the role of "binder."

and in all these cases the nation/people rose to great heights. . . I wonder if we are seeing a very accelerated version of this

 

Many nations rose to greatness and fell into obscurity in Randland. Manetheren is the biggest example. If Muruday will rise to greatness, it will have to rid itself of Demandred's influence (if he's proven to pull Roedran's strings). And it would take a weakened Andor (as a result of Caemlyn being ravaged by the Shadowspawn attack) for Muruday to grow as a regional power.

 

In the history examples I can think of, the nations that rose to greatness conquered their neighbors or grew in status at their expense. The Arabs finished off the Sassanid Persian Empire and greatly reduced the holdings of the Roman Empire in the East. The Mongols conquered almost all of Asia.

 

With Muruday, they have the unfortunate bad luck of having a border with the Seanchan. That alone can work against their rise to greatness as it will probably drain their resources to defend against Seanchan expansionism. With the Seanchan front closed off, Muruday would have to expand at the expense of Ghealdan, Illian, or Andor, which would probably serve the Seanchan!

[Durinax]

I think RJ may have used the reference to historical nations in order to give us a hint of what is happening in murandy, with a consolidated power they have enough force to become a player on the continent. How much of one is something I really want to see

[Terez]

I like the way Brandon answered a question about this. Presumably the best Aes Sedai answer he's ever given.

[Lacanos]

That's quite an artful dodging of the question for, as we all know, the point of hiring the Band was to unite Murandy's forces.

[jwood01]

With their thick accents I always saw Murandy more of a Wales or Ireland.

[jwood01]

With their thick accents and proximity to Andor I always saw Murandy more of a Wales or Ireland.

[Durinax]

well I can't comment on the accents due to me not hearing the audiotapes (which would be held to RJ's intentions I would hope).

[Lacanos]

Hmm, if we take them as Scotland, under James III and James IV the Scottish clans and Lords united increasingly in the face of aggression. No idea how militarily strong Scotland was then, yet I know that they were defeated multiple times by Henry VIII and in Edward IV's reign also I think. James IV was the more competent of the two, so look for parallels between James IV and Roedran.

 

EDIT: Just from the wiki headnote: He is generally regarded as the most successful of the Stewart monarchs of Scotland, but his reign ended with the disastrous defeat at the Battle of Flodden Field

 

Doing a little reading about the Battle of Flodden - two things spring to mind. Firstly, it's noted as a victory for the English "bill", a spear-like weapon with a long blade albeit one that is hooked. Secondly, it is mentioned as one of the first battles with artillery (read: cannons) used to significant effect in the field.

[Maleshub]

I think RJ may have used the reference to historical nations in order to give us a hint of what is happening in murandy, with a consolidated power they have enough force to become a player on the continent. How much of one is something I really want to see

 

They're still near the bottom of the political chain. And their circumstances don't seem to be in favor of them becoming a significant player on the level of Italy or Germany, the two examples in the original post.

[Durinax]

I think RJ may have used the reference to historical nations in order to give us a hint of what is happening in murandy, with a consolidated power they have enough force to become a player on the continent. How much of one is something I really want to see

 

They're still near the bottom of the political chain. And their circumstances don't seem to be in favor of them becoming a significant player on the level of Italy or Germany, the two examples in the original post.

Italy was at the bottom too when their consolidation happened then they burst upon the world stage, Germany not so much. And with TG upon the world, they are going to be pushed up significantly in importance once the FoM forces start fighting tollocs and losing men

[Maleshub]

Italy was at the bottom too when their consolidation happened then they burst upon the world stage, Germany not so much. And with TG upon the world, they are going to be pushed up significantly in importance once the FoM forces start fighting tollocs and losing men

 

But Muruday has the Seanchan and Andor to deal with. They're like a nut caught in a nutcracker. Regardless of how tough its shell is, Muruday is easiest target for the Seanchan (if they choose to expand in that direction); and Andor has just taken another swath of their territory.

[Durinax]

Italy was at the bottom too when their consolidation happened then they burst upon the world stage, Germany not so much. And with TG upon the world, they are going to be pushed up significantly in importance once the FoM forces start fighting tollocs and losing men

 

But Muruday has the Seanchan and Andor to deal with. They're like a nut caught in a nutcracker. Regardless of how tough its shell is, Muruday is easiest target for the Seanchan (if they choose to expand in that direction); and Andor has just taken another swath of their territory.

ghealdan is the easier target but I can see your point.

[Maleshub]

Italy was at the bottom too when their consolidation happened then they burst upon the world stage, Germany not so much. And with TG upon the world, they are going to be pushed up significantly in importance once the FoM forces start fighting tollocs and losing men

 

But Muruday has the Seanchan and Andor to deal with. They're like a nut caught in a nutcracker. Regardless of how tough its shell is, Muruday is easiest target for the Seanchan (if they choose to expand in that direction); and Andor has just taken another swath of their territory.

ghealdan is the easier target but I can see your point.

 

True, Ghealdan without Perrin would be easier than Muruday. And both are easier than Amadicia!

[Durinax]

Italy was at the bottom too when their consolidation happened then they burst upon the world stage, Germany not so much. And with TG upon the world, they are going to be pushed up significantly in importance once the FoM forces start fighting tollocs and losing men

 

But Muruday has the Seanchan and Andor to deal with. They're like a nut caught in a nutcracker. Regardless of how tough its shell is, Muruday is easiest target for the Seanchan (if they choose to expand in that direction); and Andor has just taken another swath of their territory.

ghealdan is the easier target but I can see your point.

 

True, Ghealdan without Perrin would be easier than Muruday. And both are easier than Amadicia!

pre Murandian uniting I would agree, post I think Murandy is stronger

[Maleshub]

pre Murandian uniting I would agree, post I think Murandy is stronger

 

I agree, Muruday is stronger than the Prophet-weakened Ghealdan. But with Perrin's army of 50K troops (not counting the Ghealdans in his army) protecting Ghealdan, Murunday is the weaker (militarily) of the two nations.

[Durinax]

pre Murandian uniting I would agree, post I think Murandy is stronger

 

I agree, Muruday is stronger than the Prophet-weakened Ghealdan. But with Perrin's army of 50K troops (not counting the Ghealdans in his army) protecting Ghealdan, Murunday is the weaker (militarily) of the two nations.

I was comparing to amadacia actually. I would not care to guess which one is stronger between ghealdan and murandy due to extrenuating circumstances

[Maleshub]

pre Murandian uniting I would agree, post I think Murandy is stronger

 

I agree, Muruday is stronger than the Prophet-weakened Ghealdan. But with Perrin's army of 50K troops (not counting the Ghealdans in his army) protecting Ghealdan, Murunday is the weaker (militarily) of the two nations.

I was comparing to amadacia actually. I would not care to guess which one is stronger between ghealdan and murandy due to extrenuating circumstances

 

Lol ... you caught the Amadicia reference before I edited. Still, it applies. Both Ghealdan (without Perrin) and Muruday are weaker and less politically stable than Amadicia, which had a larger military force than either. But the handicap with Amadicia is that it forbid the use of Aes Secai and channelers; thus making its army fodder for damane.

[Terez]

Italy was at the bottom too when their consolidation happened then they burst upon the world stage, Germany not so much. And with TG upon the world, they are going to be pushed up significantly in importance once the FoM forces start fighting tollocs and losing men

 

But Muruday has the Seanchan and Andor to deal with. They're like a nut caught in a nutcracker. Regardless of how tough its shell is, Muruday is easiest target for the Seanchan (if they choose to expand in that direction); and Andor has just taken another swath of their territory.

 

Murandy only has to fight at the Battle of Caemlyn. After that, I doubt that Demandred cares what happens to them.

[Durinax]

pre Murandian uniting I would agree, post I think Murandy is stronger

 

I agree, Muruday is stronger than the Prophet-weakened Ghealdan. But with Perrin's army of 50K troops (not counting the Ghealdans in his army) protecting Ghealdan, Murunday is the weaker (militarily) of the two nations.

I was comparing to amadacia actually. I would not care to guess which one is stronger between ghealdan and murandy due to extrenuating circumstances

 

Lol ... you caught the Amadicia reference before I edited. Still, it applies. Both Ghealdan (without Perrin) and Muruday are weaker and less politically stable than Amadicia, which had a larger military force than either. But the handicap with Amadicia is that it forbid the use of Aes Secai and channelers; thus making its army fodder for damane.

Amadicia is an propped up country, barely worthy of mentioning. But yes I did catch it

[Maleshub]

Murandy only has to fight at the Battle of Caemlyn. After that, I doubt that Demandred cares what happens to them.

 

Yeah, if we bring that theory into the discussion, then it hardly matters what Muruday does after they serve their purpose in Demandred's plan. And if they do serve their purpose, there will hardly be a Muruday left.

[Durinax]

Murandy only has to fight at the Battle of Caemlyn. After that, I doubt that Demandred cares what happens to them.

 

Yeah, if we bring that theory into the discussion, then it hardly matters what Muruday does after they serve their purpose in Demandred's plan. And if they do serve their purpose, there will hardly be a Muruday left.

would that be the same thing I have been sayin all along or is it something new?

[Maleshub]

Murandy only has to fight at the Battle of Caemlyn. After that, I doubt that Demandred cares what happens to them.

 

Yeah, if we bring that theory into the discussion, then it hardly matters what Muruday does after they serve their purpose in Demandred's plan. And if they do serve their purpose, there will hardly be a Muruday left.

would that be the same thing I have been sayin all along or is it something new?

 

I think that it is new. Demandred is using King Roedran as a proxy in his plan to attack Caemlyn. The most likely result is that Caemlyn will be rescued and Demandred's army will be destroyed (including Muruday's forces). So, by the end of TG, Muruday will have no military force left and will probably revert back to internal feuds.